The amount of just cope and faith USAsians put into electoralist bullshit baffles me.
Part of it is treatlerism, the other part is that they will either kill us or ruin our lives (by charging us with crimes) if we do anything that actually gets their attention.
Other nations (like France) have a better median quality of life (more treatlerites, in theory) and just as brutal and violent of a repressive apparatus. Yet they have a militant left, riots and general strikes and protests and material demands.
I don’t buy either of these explanations because if they were true then you wouldn’t see socialist agitating in other places that are either more repressive or more comfortable - and we see both in say India (more violent and repressive than the USA) and in South Korea/France/Japan (all higher quality of life than America). America has something unique in the water, they don’t have it uniquely bad or uniquely good - socialists in many other nations face worse repercussions and more treats yet still manage to struggle.
It probably has something to do with how the USA is a global north settler colony like isn’treal, Australia, and New Zealand.
I see what you are saying, and I agree to an extent. But so is the UK, where we see radical action and even sabotage of military equipment. There’s nothing equivalent in the USA.
The poison here is ideological and (lack of) educational. Part of that ideological rot comes from hundreds of years of rightwing psychos getting everything they want, and instilling their reactionary ideology deep into every facet of society. Racism, settler-colonialism, slavery, and now colonial empire it’s still the foundation of everything and unresolved. The patronage networks, direct and indirect, of the imperialists and prison-slavers is huge beyond belief.
I think settler-colonialism just mentally fucks with your working class. Settler-colonialism means a percentage of your working class will always have a reactionary chip installed in their brains that activates whenever the Indigenous are about to or are believed to about to seize political power. The spectre of the Indigenous taking their shit back will always haunt the mind of every settler and settler-adjacent person.
I also think this is one reason why Latin American socialists still cling to democratic socialism. Those Latin American countries are settler colonies too. They’re just Spanish (Portuguese for Brazil) settler colonies instead of Anglo ones. Mexico and Brazil are as much settler colonies as the US and the Zionist entity even if they have better politics. They have the same bullshit settler-colonial brainworms.
Despite the history of multiple democratic socialist failures and the triumph of the Cuban Revolution where Cuban socialists did not take the democratic socialist path, why is democratic socialism the dominant flavor of socialism in Latin America? One of the main reasons why the Cuban Revolution happened was because Castro and Che was on the ground when Arbenz got steamrolled by armed reactionaries and realized that reactionaries had to liquidated by force. For a more modern example, Traore vowed that he will not make the same mistake that Sankara did. And since then, he has liquidated all opposition parties and expelled all NGOs from Burkina Faso. Meanwhile, Lula is basically going to get the election stolen from him by Bolsonaro’s failson. But Lula cannot shove Bolsonaristas into Lulags because Brazil does not have the social base that would allow him to get away with that.
Traore vowed that he will not make the same mistake that Sankara did.
Going for a jog was his mistake 😔. I empathize a lot with that guy…he liked guitar, jogging, and communism, although he was way more based than I am.
they don’t know anything else, they literally cannot conceive of it. If you tell them DNC electoralism is a dead end they will accuse you of being a hopeless doomer, to them that is literally the only possible option so by rebuking it you are just ‘giving up’. It never crosses their mind that there are other paths
the ultimate pressure would be firing her and replacing her with someone else.
this is a textbook example of how Democrats constantly shoot themselves in the foot with bad politics. Trump 2 started with the right purging every single person not sufficiently loyal to the big man himself, the left in the country fucking dream of someone getting elected who does that but for anti-capitalism (or anti-zionism (or fucking anything at this point)).
It’s a textbook example of the democrats and republicans ultimately being on the same team. Come on, now.
>:(
Replacing her as soon as he entered office would’ve been the normal thing to do. Its actually abnormal to keep her. Tisch isn’t even well liked by the police unions. She’s just some nepo-baby who went back to school at like 40 to study criminology. Allegedly the Tisch family are patrons of Governor Hocul and its Hocul that demanded Zorhan keep Tisch.
This is incorrect. Three days ago DSA released a statement demanding Zohran fire Tisch: https://www.instagram.com/p/DeVn1JejqHg/?img_index=5&dlrf=MXA2cDR4bjZod2FoNg%3D%3D
Regardless of how correct OP is I don’t think it’s a good sign the DSA has to release a public statement instead of just telling him to do it.
I’ve been saying since the start they wouldn’t have any actual leverage over him if he pulled an AOC. Shit, I asked someone in the NYDSA once what their plan was if he cut and ran and all they had to say was “oh well he’s really one of us”.
If this is their idea of leverage, and they can’t just pull him to the side and say “clean it up”, then he’s a dog off a leash as far as I’m concerned. Even if he ends up firing her, why is the DSA releasing public statements and not just telling him to do this outright?
You don’t go public against one of your own people like that.
You don’t go public against one of your own people like that.
You do. Even under socialism you do. Class struggle continues under socialist construction, and we aren’t even at socialist construction.
That said, I agree with your over all point: not a good sign!
Isn’t the whole point of democratic centralism that these issues are handled internally?
We both know that DSA isn’t demcent; it needs more centralization to really develop its demcoracy, but it needs to avoid the errors of bureaucratic centralism too. A big part of the problem with DSA is big chapters like NYC and LA don’t want to be democratic; they want to bureaucratically decide things and get rubber stamps from membership.
There’s also advantages to handling some disagreements publicly: it renders line struggle visible to the masses.
Finally, as I alluded to above, some MLs like Mao have definitely been okay not just handling stuff internally.
Mao doing it does not mean it was a good idea and famously some of these were genuinely catastrophic failures
DSA isn’t an explicitly ML party, they have ML factions but the org doesn’t practice demcent as a whole
Yea I know, I intended to comment on whether it’s good or bad practice and the fact that democratic centralism is intended to prevent that made me think it’s bad practice. Although I understand it’s more nuanced and is necessary in some cases. My thoughts on DSA’s organisational structure is not very positive
hence why they have zionist dogs off their leashes
I don’t think the DSA practices Democratic Centralism
Oh yeah no I agree with you too I should’ve worded it more specific to this situation.
The public-facing call to action is definitely a wrung or two up the escalation ladder I should say.
I’ve been saying since the start they wouldn’t have any actual leverage over him if he pulled an AOC. Shit, I asked someone in the NYDSA once what their plan was if he cut and ran and all they had to say was “oh well he’s really one of us”.
I’m so grateful the dems rat fucked Hong out the WI gov primary. It was really the best outcome. Electoralists get their recruitment opportunity and then all those new recruits get mass disillusionemnet with the democratic party.
Hong definitely wasn’t “one of us” like Zohran was and we had absolutely no power to force her to do shit at a state level nor would she have any ability to do shit in office.
why does he even need to be told? This is all so pathetic and wormlike
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Isn’t this moot though? Say they expelled him from the DSA over this, he just becomes another “progressive dem” right? The larger public wouldn’t even know they dropped him, would they? I just don’t see how the DSA has real leverage here. He earned his clout by using them and now he has the Democratic machine to prop him up.
Ok but party discipline is authoritarian
Might it be, totalitarian?
Party discipline is just vibes though once the candidate is actually in office.
I cannot tell if this is a joke or a contrary claim
The only legal mechanism for a party to enforce discipline on a wayward elected threaten them with a primary contender next election cycle. Expelling someone from the party does not expell them from the primary ballot nor their ability to vote in the primary.
There are extralegal ways, political favors or threats, campaign or PAC donations, etc. But these are only available to the bourgeoisie as they already have political power.
This is part of problem with running for executive when you don’t have the power to both support your electeds against your enemies.
That said I think this is untested, maybe NYC DSA could successfully support him against the NYC establishment and the police, but they are too focused on economism. Politics needs to be in command.
What leverage does the mayor have over the police commissioner?
Edit: google says Mamdani can replace her at will.
Not only could he have fired her at any point, he actually broke an 80 (100?) year streak of mayors immediately replacing the police commissioner upon taking office just to keep a Zionist trust fund kid around.
Incredible
“I must prove I’m not an antisemite to people who will call me an antisemite regardless”
The NYPD is effectively a military and it’s full of frothing chuds. My understanding is that Tisch was kept around as a concession to the establishment and attempting to get rid of her could very reasonably turn into a “You and what army?” situation.
Let’s imagine that is true for a second. In that case, make them pull the trigger! You can’t succeed against the occupiers by just complying in advance with the occupiers. You need to struggle against them and not just be intimidated into being their puppet.
But more importantly, this is just cope. What are they going to do? Shoot Mamdani in the head for firing Tisch for refusing to have cops for the feds to take legal measures against federal agents? As Chapo rightly pointed out, people were making this same argument about ending Stop and Frisk and ultimately nothing came of it. They would need to resort to truly extreme measures that they wouldn’t do for the sake of avenging fucking Tisch being fired.
What are they going to do? Shoot Mamdani in the head for firing Tisch for refusing to have cops for the feds to take legal measures against federal agents?
What? They would literally just have to go
Mamdani wouldn’t even need to be ousted, he could just politely be told behind the scenes that were he to fire Tisch, the order won’t be enforced. He can’t physically drag her out of her office by himself.
he could just politely be told behind the scenes that were he to fire Tisch, the order won’t be enforced.
That would mean they would just show their ass that the “rule of law” isn’t real, meaning Mamdani himself could pull more radical moves, rallying and radicalizing his voting base in the process. The only reason he doesn’t do this is he’s an opportunist coward.
Enforcing the order really is as easy as not signing checks / telling treasury to cut the money to the cops. He really has the absolute lion’s share of leverage because of that.
What would an ex-commissionar and the other cops do then, pretend to get paid?
No salt, no army.
In that scenario, is what purpleworm said still not the case? Make them demonstrate that they’re entirely unaccountable and then use your popular mandate to purge, defund, etc the NYPD.
Yeah. Unfortunately Zohran seems content to work within the system rather than dismantling it.
Mamdani wouldn’t even need to be ousted, he could just politely be told behind the scenes that were he to fire Tisch, the order won’t be enforced.
So you propose that the worst case would be that things are as they are now?
if you try to wield power you may find it has constraints, so better not to attempt it all and remain placid
I think more realistically Mamdani is afraid that the cops will create crime and violence issues all over NY to overshadow his mayoral term with bad PR. Mamdani might think that keeping Tisch on board will keep the cops down a bit since they respect her and she has an incentive to limit unrest as it reflects on her as well. That’s naive since the cops and Tisch will sabotage Mamdani’s term no matter what. The best he can do is get rid of Tisch ASAP and replace her with someone who understands the NYPD well enough to be able to identify and eliminate all saboteurs from leading positions and replace them with people who prioritise performance over influencing politics.
The best he can do is get rid of Tisch ASAP and replace her with someone who understands the NYPD well enough to be able to identify and eliminate all saboteurs from leading positions and replace them with people who prioritise performance over influencing politics.
i don’t think that person exists. true believers in the mythology of the cop don’t last long enough to be in charge.
This would make more sense if the NYPD liked her, which they don’t. She’s not a cop, she’s a trust fund kid. Fire her, grab the least chuddy beat cop you can find and give them the position and you’d be more popular with the NYPD.
Nothing is worse to a cop than being passed up for promotion when they’re “due.” Grabbing someone from the lower ranks would be mamdani’s last living act.
Okay fine find the least chuddy precinct head, regardless they’ll be more liked and qualified than Tisch who was never a cop and then went straight to head of counterterrorism then commissioner.
wait the regular pigs don’t like the head pig?
i’m not going to accuse mamdani of doing 4D chess
socialism will famously come about by hiding from the contradictions and refusing to escalate at every turn. that’s why bernie was so successful! We will capitulate our way into communism! Let the ruling class tremble at our surrenders. Workers of the world stand down!
Historically, every new mayor of NYC has replaced the police commissioner as one of their first actions, Mamdani is the stubborn exception here.
If he wanted to get rid of her, this would be a good time to do it.
If he wanted to pressure her for some specific changes, he could threaten her position more effectively right now.
Does he actually want to do either of those things? They’re things he could have done at anytime already, was he just waiting for the best opportunity? I’m skeptical but I guess we’ll see.
we also shouldn’t do great man theory for pigs, what good cop are we imagining exists to replace Tisch that the other pigs would obey? He could appoint some abolitionist but the nypd would just riot and there would be some mysterious deaths.
not excusing any mamdani has said, but if you want a mayor going after the cops they need way more support than currently exists to actually accomplish anything. Sliwa at least sort-of has a paramilitary.
we also shouldn’t do great man theory for pigs, what good cop are we imagining exists to replace Tisch that the other pigs would obey?
The point isn’t that the NYPD would then be Cool and Good, it’s that they need to listen to Mamdani at all. The stated problem with Tisch isn’t that she hasn’t order the whole NYPD to drive off of the Brooklyn Bridge, it’s that they are cooperating with blatantly illegal ICE actions.
My point in saying this being that the bar for the stated problem is much, much lower and firing and replacing her is realistic for improving things with that problem.
i still don’t know where you’re finding an anti-ice cop
I never said anything about an anti-ICE cop, but it’s not a binary between “champion of the Protracted People’s War” and “subserviates literally everything about their career to enable ICE”. Just someone engaging in the most basic enforcement of laws and policies to mitigate the PR problem while still not fundamentally challenging ICE is not a difficult cop to find if they understand that their job depends on them performing that task.
This time it will work bro
I listened to the recent chapo episode where they offer Zohran helpful advice with tinge of disappointment and I was surprised after being burned since Sanders lost (twice) and the Democrats betray them at every turn, including AOC, that they still are unable to grasp reformers aren’t revolutionaries.
Chapo traphouse and Hasan are reformers so Zohran is their perfect representative.
At least Chapo was much more critical and not doing shit like in the OOP
yeah instead they just memory hole everything and then do it again instead of embarrassing themselves going down with the ship
it’s their brand, they’ve made their bed.
This is so fucking stupid. How is him being pressured and losing political capital going to pressure Tisch? It’s his constituency that’s annoyed and disappointed. Her doing her thing leads to him paying the price, that’s the opposite of leverage.
C’mon man, give me a break
eat shit you Khamas Khommie bastard!!!if he lies supine for long enough and lets her do everything she wants, she’ll eventually realize she’s wrong and make some concessions cos she feels bad.
we got this in the bag, boys!
“Here’s how Bernie can still win” but for someone who won the election and is holding the office already, and also the strategy is always begging.
It’s as Lenin said. Use your massive mobilization of the working class to try to push the tsar to the left. You should also debate the Black Hundreds into hippy free love. This is how you get communism
not even the tsar, this is like trying to push one of the Okhrana/Secret Police left. Not only a totally pointless waste of time because they are a hardcore class enemy and reactionary - but utterly inconsequential because they aren’t even wielding very much political power outside of the ability to repress leftists
this is like that pop culture definition of insanity before you end up with another ogre like fetterman again and again
I still object to the “fell for it again award” stuff as antisocial, but fuck if I’m not being tempted by the fucking socdems talking about how they are the ones rightly taken seriously and those to their left are just worried about performative “purity”.
Three days ago, DSA demanded that Mamdani fire Tisch in a public statement.
I don’t hate the DSA and give due credit to the national and state level DSAs for siding with the protestors here, as well as the local YDSAs or whatever it was thay got into a dispute with the city DSA before mostly being cowed into retracting their statements.
But we need to consider if they are going to be willing to take action against Mamdani and if they set themselves up for failure in an extremely predictable way. Perhaps they will pull through, and I will not dogmatically deny them credit, but there are people currently getting sheepdogged by people like Piker into taking positions to the right of the more progressive DSA elements.
Who is Jessica Tisch
zionist billionaire heiress police commissioner that he refuses to replace and has died on a hill defending (for some reason that none of his supporters can grasp so they resort to wilder and wilder copes)
it seems likely he made some kind of deal about Tisch with Hochul but who knows since he only gives bullshit non-answers about why he kept her onboard.
