• KeenFlame@feddit.nu
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    3 小时前

    Why are they automatically aligned with the states if they are anti tankors? That’s extremely inflammatory

    • ZMoney@lemmy.world
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      59 分钟前

      Because that’s the whole tankie mentality. Everyone who doesn’t agree is an imperialist.

      • Tomorrow_Farewell@lemmy.ml
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        50 分钟前

        When the “disagreement” in question is people supporting invaders of Iraq and Afghanistan, who are currently engaging in at least one genocide, yeah, it’s fair to call them that.

  • BanMeFromPosting@lemmy.ml
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    20 小时前

    You wouldn’t be tankies if you knew any history, if you’d ever heard about holodomor 1984 animal farm tienanmen communism only works on paper. Yeah, sorry to present some new ideas and some novel knowledge to you like that. Bet you feel dumb now, huh?
    Yeah sorry to burst your echo chamber like that, bet you’ve never heard “china bad” before, huh? I’m the smartest boy in the world and if you disagree with me then it’s because you don’t know what I know, because I know everything. I’m not in an echo chamber, now if you’ll excuse me I gotta go back to my subreddit where we call everyone CCP bots if they suggest we shouldn’t nuke Beijing, then I’m gonna go outside where I’m not at all surrounded by all sorts of mind viruses and tonight I’m gonna educate myself by rewatching John Olivers Last Week Tonight about Venezuela and then probably a little bit of Fair and Balanced CNN to stay informed. It’s so hard to avoid the tankie echochamber these days.

    edit: Forgot to add if anyone disagrees with me then it’s because they’re either an unthinking machine or a filthy devious foreigner. I am as far left as they come.

    also have y’all hear about le authoritarian dictatorism? Bet you haven’t. Bet you haven’t heard about molotov-ribbentrop which is the only treaty anybody signed with the nazis

    • eldavi@lemmy.ml
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      20 小时前

      edit: Forgot to add if anyone disagrees with me then it’s because they’re either an unthinking machine or a filthy devious foreigner…

      – or a bot. lol

      • BanMeFromPosting@lemmy.ml
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        21 小时前

        Smh you’re obviously one of them

        BEGONE

        NSA MASS SURVEILLANCE KENT STATE KENT STATE UNI CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY DAVID MISCAVIGE 佔領華爾街 MAY 4 1970 MASSACRE 肯特州立大学枪击事件 MAY 13 1985 MOVE BOMBING「MOVE」組織轰炸 RED SUMMER 1919 HOUSE UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES COMMITTEE 众议院非美活动调查委员会 TRAIL OF TEARS 美国本地人种族灭绝 JIM CROW SEGREGATION 吉姆·克勞法 HUMAN RIGHTS 人權 CITIZENS UNITED 联合公民诉联邦选举委员会案 SAFETY 安全 HIGH SPEED RAIL 人民共和国高速铁路 STRONG MASS LINE 群众路线 REPUBLIC OF HAWAII 夏威夷共和国 THIRTEEN COLONIES 十三殖民地 VIETNAM AFGHANISTAN IRAQ 伊拉克 EDWARD SNOWDEN 爱德华·斯诺登 SCIENTOLOGY 山達基教會 GUANTANAMO BAY DETENTION CAMP 关塔那摩湾拘押中心 NOBEL PEACE PRIZE 諾貝爾和平獎 BARACK OBAMA 贝拉克·奥巴马 COMMUNISM SOLIDARITY LABOUR ACTION ANTI-CAPITALIST PRO-REVOLUTION PROTEST MOVEMENT ANTIFA RIOT POLICE BRUTAILITY POLICE OCCUPATION PAID SUSPENSION LEFTIST COUNTER PROTEST CHARLES MANSON MANSON FAMILY JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES BORDER CONCENTRATION CAMPS MKULTRA ASSASINATE FRED HAMPTON JANE FONDA EUGENE DEBS MALCOLM X EAT THE RICH THE CRUMBLING OF AMERICA REAGANOMICS INFOWARS MANUFACTURING CONSENT FASCIST OLIGARCHY FBI HONEYPOT NSA SPYING ICE DEPORTATIONS WAR ON DRUGS PRISON SLAVERY CIVIL ASSET FORFEITURE ENHANCED INTERROGATION MY LAI PRISONremoved DEPORTATION MS13 PIZZAGATE LOLIHENTAI PURCHASING KINDER EGG LOTTERY OPERATION SEA SPRAY PATRIOT ACT AMWAY 21 SAVAGE 奇多贝尼托 SCOTT WARREN NET NEUTRALITY LOVEINT EGLIN AIRFORCE BASE COINTELPRO OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD OPERATION EARNEST VOICE OPERATION AURORAGOLD 1999 BELGRADE EMBASSY BOMBING IRAN AIR FLIGHT 655 QASEM SOLEIMANI JEFFREY EPSTEIN MASS PEDOPHILIA ABROAD AND DOMESTIC OPERATION SNOW WHITE HARVEY WEINSTEIN OPERATION CONDOR AARON SWARTZ WACO SIEGE RUBY RIDGE SIEGE 1998 CAVALESE CABLE CAR DISASTER PROJECT ELDEST SON GUNS FOR ANTIGUA GARY WEBB FREE BURMA RANGERS STRONGHOLD RESCUE & RELIEF MCNAMARA’S MORONS PROJECT APPLE PROJECT MIRROR PROJECT WITCH GEORGE PELL ACQUITTAL FORT DETRICK KILLING OF HUEY LONG BLAIR MOUNTAIN ERIC HARROUN MIRACLE VALLEY JINGMING BUILDING INCIDENT YANGJU HIGHWAY INCIDENT 16754432 JAPANESE WARCRIMES OPERATION ASIAN TOUCH OPERATION FREEDOM DEAL CHILEAN COUP D’ETAT TULSA MASSACRE MERE removed RULE MORO CRATER CUBANA FLIGHT 455 OPIOID EPIDEMIC SACKLER FAMILY JADE HELM 15 NO GUN RI RYAN WHITAKER PROJECT SUNSHINE WECH BAGHTU DASANI FAKE WATER ICE CONCENTRATION CAMPS ICE HYSTERECTOMIES OPERATION MIDNIGHT CLIMAX OPERATION MONGOOSE JULIAN ASSANGE EMMETT TILL ANDRE VITCHEK NIKOLA MOTORS FORT HOOD MISSING SOLDIERS AGRICULTURAL ABCD AARON SWARTZ KENTUCKY POLICE HITLER RUSHAN ABBAS GITMO US MILITARY BUYS APP DATA ELAINE MASSACRE LITTLE HIROSHIMA LYSOL INJECTION US RACTOPAMINE MEAT PIKETON WASTE BONUS ARMY DANNY CHEN NORTH DAKOTA ACCESS PIPELINE PROTESTS 北达科他州接入管道抗议 FERGUSON PROTESTS 弗格森暴动 ST. LOUIS PROTESTS 2017 年圣路易斯抗议活动 NUCLEAR TESTING BIKINI ATOLL 比基尼环礁的核试验 UNITE THE RIGHT RALLY 团结右集会 CHARLOTTE PROTESTS 夏洛特暴动 ATTACK ON SUI-HO DAM 袭击穗河水坝 MILWAUKEE PROTESTS 密尔沃基骚乱 Shooting of Alton Sterling and Philando Castile 奥尔顿·斯特林和菲兰多·卡斯蒂利亚的射击 Occupation of the Malheur NationalWildlife Refuge Malheur国家野生动物保护区的占领 death of Freddie Gray 弗雷迪·格雷的死 Shooting of Michael Brown迈克尔·布朗的拍摄 death of Eric Garner, Oakland California 奥克兰奥克兰市埃里克·加纳(Eric Garner)逝世 Operation Condor 神鹰行动 Occupy WallStreet 占领华尔街 My Lai Massacre 我的大屠杀 St. Petersburg, Florida 佛罗里达州圣彼得堡 Kandahar Massacre 坎大哈屠杀 1992Washington Heights riots 1992年华盛顿高地暴动 No Gun Ri Massacre 无枪杀案 L.A. Rodney King riots 洛杉矶罗德尼·金暴动 1979 Greensboro Massacre 1979年格林斯伯勒大屠杀 Vietnam War 越南战争 Kent State shootings肯特州枪击案 Bombing of Tokyo 轰炸东京 San Francisco Police Department Park Station bombing 旧金山警察局公园站爆炸案 Assassination of MartinLuther King, Jr. 小马丁·路德·金遭暗杀。 Long Hot Summer of 1967 1967年炎热的夏天 Bagram 巴格拉姆 Selma to Montgomery marches 塞尔玛到蒙哥马利游行 Highway of Death 死亡之路 Ax Handle Saturday 星期六斧头 Battle of Evarts 埃瓦茨战役 Battle ofBlair Mountain 布莱尔山战役 McCarthyism 麦卡锡主义 Red Summer 红色夏天 Rock Springs massacre 岩泉大屠杀 Pottawatomie massacre 盆大屠杀 Jeju uprising 济州起义 Colfaxmassacre 科尔法克斯大屠杀 Reading Railroad massacre 阅读铁路大屠杀 Rock Springs massacre 岩泉大屠杀 Bay viewMassacre 湾景大屠杀 Lattimer massacre 拉蒂默大屠杀 Ludlow massacre 拉德洛屠杀 Everett massacre 埃弗里特屠杀Centralia Massacre 中部大屠杀 Ocoee massacre Ocoee大屠杀 Herrin Massacre 赫林大屠杀 Redwood Massacre红木大屠杀 Columbine Mine Massacre 哥伦拜恩矿难 Guantanamo Bay 关塔那摩湾 extraordinary rendition 非凡的演绎 Abu Ghraib torture and prison abuse 阿布格莱布的酷刑和监狱虐待 Henry Kissinger 亨利·基辛格 TIMBER SYCAMORE DANNY CHEN PROJECT ICEWORM CHINESE EXLCUSION ACT BIKINI ATOLL GUANO ACT LOVE CANAL JIM JONES PEOPLE’S TEMPEL PARENT’S CHOICE HEAVY METALS OPERATION BROTHER SAM 2021 TEXAS BLACKOUTNSA MASS SURVEILLANCE KENT STATE KENT STATE UNI CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY DAVID MISCAVIGE 佔領華爾街 MAY 4 1970 MASSACRE 肯特州立大学枪击事件 MAY 13 1985 MOVE BOMBING「MOVE」組織轰炸 RED SUMMER 1919 HOUSE UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES COMMITTEE 众议院非美活动调查委员会 TRAIL OF TEARS 美国本地人种族灭绝 JIM CROW SEGREGATION 吉姆·克勞法 HUMAN RIGHTS 人權 CITIZENS UNITED 联合公民诉联邦选举委员会案 SAFETY 安全 HIGH SPEED RAIL 人民共和国高速铁路 STRONG MASS LINE 群众路线 REPUBLIC OF HAWAII 夏威夷共和国 THIRTEEN COLONIES 十三殖民地 VIETNAM AFGHANISTAN IRAQ 伊拉克 EDWARD SNOWDEN 爱德华·斯诺登 SCIENTOLOGY 山達基教會 GUANTANAMO BAY DETENTION CAMP 关塔那摩湾拘押中心 NOBEL PEACE PRIZE 諾貝爾和平獎 BARACK OBAMA 贝拉克·奥巴马 COMMUNISM SOLIDARITY LABOUR ACTION ANTI-CAPITALIST PRO-REVOLUTION PROTEST MOVEMENT ANTIFA RIOT POLICE BRUTAILITY POLICE OCCUPATION PAID SUSPENSION LEFTIST COUNTER PROTEST CHARLES MANSON MANSON FAMILY JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES BORDER CONCENTRATION CAMPS MKULTRA ASSASINATE FRED HAMPTON JANE FONDA EUGENE DEBS MALCOLM X EAT THE RICH THE CRUMBLING OF AMERICA REAGANOMICS INFOWARS MANUFACTURING CONSENT FASCIST OLIGARCHY FBI HONEYPOT NSA SPYING ICE DEPORTATIONS WAR ON DRUGS PRISON SLAVERY CIVIL ASSET FORFEITURE ENHANCED INTERROGATION MY LAI PRISONremoved DEPORTATION MS13 PIZZAGATE LOLIHENTAI PURCHASING KINDER EGG LOTTERY OPERATION SEA SPRAY PATRIOT ACT AMWAY 21 SAVAGE 奇多贝尼托 SCOTT WARREN NET NEUTRALITY LOVEINT EGLIN AIRFORCE BASE COINTELPRO OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD OPERATION EARNEST VOICE OPERATION AURORAGOLD 1999 BELGRADE EMBASSY BOMBING IRAN AIR FLIGHT 655 QASEM SOLEIMANI JEFFREY EPSTEIN MASS PEDOPHILIA ABROAD AND DOMESTIC OPERATION SNOW WHITE HARVEY WEINSTEIN OPERATION CONDOR AARON SWARTZ WACO SIEGE RUBY RIDGE SIEGE 1998 CAVALESE CABLE CAR DISASTER PROJECT ELDEST SON GUNS FOR ANTIGUA GARY WEBB FREE BURMA RANGERS STRONGHOLD RESCUE & RELIEF MCNAMARA’S MORONS PROJECT APPLE PROJECT MIRROR PROJECT WITCH GEORGE PELL ACQUITTAL FORT DETRICK KILLING OF HUEY LONG BLAIR MOUNTAIN ERIC HARROUN MIRACLE VALLEY JINGMING BUILDING INCIDENT YANGJU HIGHWAY INCIDENT 16754432 JAPANESE WARCRIMES OPERATION ASIAN TOUCH OPERATION FREEDOM DEAL CHILEAN COUP D’ETAT TULSA MASSACRE MERE removed RULE MORO CRATER CUBANA FLIGHT 455 OPIOID EPIDEMIC SACKLER FAMILY JADE HELM 15 NO GUN RI RYAN WHITAKER PROJECT SUNSHINE WECH BAGHTU DASANI FAKE WATER ICE CONCENTRATION CAMPS ICE HYSTERECTOMIES OPERATION MIDNIGHT CLIMAX OPERATION MONGOOSE JULIAN ASSANGE EMMETT TILL ANDRE VITCHEK NIKOLA MOTORS FORT HOOD MISSING SOLDIERS AGRICULTURAL ABCD AARON SWARTZ KENTUCKY POLICE HITLER RUSHAN ABBAS GITMO US MILITARY BUYS APP DATA ELAINE MASSACRE LITTLE HIROSHIMA LYSOL INJECTION US RACTOPAMINE MEAT PIKETON WASTE BONUS ARMY DANNY CHEN NORTH DAKOTA ACCESS PIPELINE PROTESTS 北达科他州接入管道抗议 FERGUSON PROTESTS 弗格森暴动 ST. LOUIS PROTESTS 2017 年圣路易斯抗议活动 NUCLEAR TESTING BIKINI ATOLL 比基尼环礁的核试验 UNITE THE RIGHT RALLY 团结右集会 CHARLOTTE PROTESTS 夏洛特暴动 ATTACK ON SUI-HO DAM 袭击穗河水坝 MILWAUKEE PROTESTS 密尔沃基骚乱 Shooting of Alton Sterling and Philando Castile 奥尔顿·斯特林和菲兰多·卡斯蒂利亚的射击 Occupation of the Malheur NationalWildlife Refuge Malheur国家野生动物保护区的占领 death of Freddie Gray 弗雷迪·格雷的死 Shooting of Michael Brown迈克尔·布朗的拍摄 death of Eric Garner, Oakland California 奥克兰奥克兰市埃里克·加纳(Eric Garner)逝世 Operation Condor 神鹰行动 Occupy WallStreet 占领华尔街 My Lai Massacre 我的大屠杀 St. Petersburg, Florida 佛罗里达州圣彼得堡 Kandahar Massacre 坎大哈屠杀 1992Washington Heights riots 1992年华盛顿高地暴动 No Gun Ri Massacre 无枪杀案 L.A. Rodney King riots 洛杉矶罗德尼·金暴动 1979 Greensboro Massacre 1979年格林斯伯勒大屠杀 Vietnam War 越南战争 Kent State shootings肯特州枪击案 Bombing of Tokyo 轰炸东京 San Francisco Police Department Park Station bombing 旧金山警察局公园站爆炸案 Assassination of MartinLuther King, Jr. 小马丁·路德·金遭暗杀。 Long Hot Summer of 1967 1967年炎热的夏天 Bagram 巴格拉姆 Selma to Montgomery marches 塞尔玛到蒙哥马利游行 Highway of Death 死亡之路 Ax Handle Saturday 星期六斧头 Battle of Evarts 埃瓦茨战役 Battle ofBlair Mountain 布莱尔山战役 McCarthyism 麦卡锡主义 Red Summer 红色夏天 Rock Springs massacre 岩泉大屠杀 Pottawatomie massacre 盆大屠杀 Jeju uprising 济州起义 Colfaxmassacre 科尔法克斯大屠杀 Reading Railroad massacre 阅读铁路大屠杀 Rock Springs massacre 岩泉大屠杀 Bay viewMassacre 湾景大屠杀 Lattimer massacre 拉蒂默大屠杀 Ludlow massacre 拉德洛屠杀 Everett massacre 埃弗里特屠杀Centralia Massacre 中部大屠杀 Ocoee massacre Ocoee大屠杀 Herrin Massacre 赫林大屠杀 Redwood Massacre红木大屠杀 Columbine Mine Massacre 哥伦拜恩矿难 Guantanamo Bay 关塔那摩湾 extraordinary rendition 非凡的演绎 Abu Ghraib torture and prison abuse 阿布格莱布的酷刑和监狱虐待 Henry Kissinger 亨利·基辛格 TIMBER SYCAMORE PROJECT ICEWORM CHINESE EXLCUSION ACT BIKINI ATOLL GUANO ACT LOVE CANAL JIM JONES PEOPLE’S TEMPEL PARENT’S CHOICE HEAVY METALS OPERATION BROTHER SAM 2021 TEXAS BLACKOUT

          • BanMeFromPosting@lemmy.ml
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            12 小时前

            AHHH The firewall activation spell doesn’t work anymore! They’ve cracked the code!

            /s no, I was just continuing the bit where liberals believe saying forbidden words makes chinese people get disappeared, but I used a variant of the copypasta where it’s all western atrocities

            edit: just now realised the pun. Top tier work

  • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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    Tankies [1] don’t usually believe that Stalin or Mao “did nothing wrong,” although many do use that phrase for effect (this is the internet, remember). We believe that Stalin and Mao were committed socialists who, despite their mistakes, did much more for humanity than most of the bourgeois politicians who are typically put forward as role models (Washington? Jefferson? JFK? Jimmy Carter?), and that they haven’t been judged according to the same standard as those bourgeois politicians. People call this “whataboutism” [2], but the claim “Stalin was a monster” is implicitly a comparative claim meaning “Stalin was qualitatively different from and worse than e.g. Churchill,” and I think the opposite is the case. If people are going to make veiled comparisons, us tankies have the right to answer with open ones.

    To defend someone from an unfair attack you don’t have to deify them, you just have to notice that they’re being unfairly attacked. This is unquestionably the case for Stalin and Mao, who have been unjustly demonized more than any other heads of state in history. Tankies understand that there is a reason for this: the Cold War, in which the US spent countless billions of dollars trying to undermine and destroy socialism [3], specifically Marxist-Leninist states. Many western leftists think that all this money and energy had no substantial effect on their opinions, but this seems extremely naive. We all grew up in ideological/media environments shaped profoundly by the Cold War, which is why Cold War anticommunist ideas about the Soviets being monsters are so pervasive a dogma (in the West).

    The reason we “defend authoritarian dictators” is because we want to defend the accomplishments of really existing socialism, and other people’s false or exaggerated beliefs about those “dictators” almost always get in the way — it’s not tankies but normies [4] who commit the synecdoche of reducing all of really existing socialism to Stalin and Mao. Those accomplishments include raising standards of living, achieving unprecedented income equality, massive gains in women’s rights and the position of women vis-a-vis men, defeating the Nazis, raising life expectancy, ending illiteracy, putting an end to periodic famines, inspiring and providing material aid to decolonizing movements (e.g. Vietnam, China, South Africa, Burkina Faso, Indonesia), which scared the West into conceding civil rights and the welfare state. These were greater strides in the direction of abolishing capitalism than any other society has ever made. These are the gains that are so important to insist on, against the CIA/Trotskyist/ultraleft consensus that the Soviet Union was basically an evil empire and Stalin a deranged butcher.

    There are two approaches one can take to people who say “socialism = Stalin = bad”: you can try to break the first leg of the equation or the second. Trotskyists take the first option; they’ve had the blessing of the academy, foundation and CIA money for their publishing outfits, and controlled the narrative in the West for the better part of the last century. But they haven’t managed to make a successful revolution anywhere in all that time. Recently, socialism has been gaining in popularity… and so have Marxism-Leninism and support for Stalin and Mao. Thus it’s not the case that socialism can only gain ground in the West by throwing really existing socialism and socialist leaders under the bus.

    The thing is, delinking socialism from Stalin also means delinking it from the Soviet Union, disavowing everything that’s been done under the name of socialism as “Stalinist.” The “socialism” that results from this procedure is defined as grassroots, bottom-up, democratic, non-bureaucratic, nonviolent, non-hierarchical… in other words, perfect. So whenever real revolutionaries (say, for example, the Naxals in India) do things imperfectly they are cast out of “socialism” and labeled “Stalinists.” This is clearly an example of respectability politics run amok. Tankies believe that this failure of solidarity, along with the utopian ideas that the revolution can win without any kind of serious conflict or without party discipline, are more significant problems for the left than is “authoritarianism” (see Engels for more on this last point). [5] We believe that understanding the problems faced by Stalin and Mao helps us understand problems generic to socialism, that any successful socialism will have to face sooner or later. This is much more instructive and useful than just painting nicer and nicer pictures of socialism while the world gets worse and worse.

    It’s extremely unconvincing to say “Sure it was horrible last time, but next time it’ll be different.” Trotskyists and ultraleftists compensate by prettying up their picture of socialism and picking more obscure (usually short-lived) experiments to uphold as the real deal. But this just gives ammunition to those who say “Socialism doesn’t work” or “Socialism is a utopian fantasy.” And lurking behind the whole conversation is Stalin, who for the average Westerner represents the unadvisability of trying to radically change the world at all. No matter how much you insist that your thing isn’t Stalinist, the specter of Stalin is still going to affect how people think about (any form of) socialism — tankies have decided that there is no getting around the problem of addressing Stalin’s legacy. That legacy, as it stands, at least in Western public opinion (they feel differently about him in other parts of the world), is largely the product of Cold War propaganda.

    And shouldn’t we expect capitalists to smear socialists, especially effective socialists? Shouldn’t we expect to hear made up horror stories about really existing socialism to try and deter us from trying to overthrow our own capitalist governments? Think of how the media treats antifa. Think of WMDs in Iraq, think of how concentrated media ownership is, think of the regularity with which the CIA gets involved in Hollywood productions, think of the entirety of dirty tricks employed by the West during the Cold War (starting with the invasion of the Soviet Union immediately after the October Revolution by nearly every Western power), and then tell me they wouldn’t lie about Stalin. Robert Conquest was IRD. [6] Gareth Jones worked for the Rockefeller Institute, the Chrysler Foundation and Standard Oil and was buddies with Heinz and Hitler. Solzhenitsyn was a virulently antisemitic fiction writer. Everything we know about the power of media and suggestion indicates that the anticommunist and anti-Stalin consensus could easily have been manufactured irrespective of the facts — couple that with an appreciation for how legitimately terrified the ruling classes of the West were by the Russian and Chinese revolutions and you have means and motive.

    Anyway, the basic point is that socialist revolution is neither easy (as the Trotskyists and ultraleftists would have it) nor impossible (as the liberals and conservatives would have it), but hard. It will require dedication and sacrifice and it won’t be won in a day. Tankies are those people who think the millions of communists who fought and died for socialism in the twentieth century weren’t evil, dupes, or wasting their time, but people to whom we owe a great deal and who can still teach us a lot.

    Or, to put it another way: socialism has powerful enemies. Those enemies don’t care how you feel about Marx or Makhno or Deleuze or communism in the abstract, they care about your feelings towards FARC, the Naxals, Cuba, North Korea, etc. They care about your position with respect to states and contenders-for-statehood, and how likely you are to try and emulate them. They are not worried about the molecular and the rhizomatic because they know that those things can be brought back into line by the application of force. It’s their monopoly on force that they are primarily concerned to protect. When you desert real socialism in favor of ideal socialism, the kind that never took up arms against anybody, you’re doing them a favor.

      • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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        22 小时前

        Yep, people rarely seek truth from facts and as a consequence seek to convert the ideas of their perceived enemies into irrational, self-contradicting falsehoods. It’s the easiest way to dismiss Marxism-Leninism.

    • Dessalines@lemmy.mlOP
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      24 小时前

      Or, to put it another way: socialism has powerful enemies. Those enemies don’t care how you feel about Marx or Makhno or Deleuze or communism in the abstract, they care about your feelings towards FARC, the Naxals, Cuba, North Korea, etc

      This point is especially important. I’m in the middle of reading (and recording) Philip Agee - Inside the company, a CIA diary. He was a former CIA case officer who defected and escaped to Cuba. In Ecuador, he ran several of the 15+ operations the CIA was running in that country. These programs included everything from running US-friendly assets in the government, infiltrations of labor unions, control of religious institutions, control of youth orgs (especially catholic and conservative ones), journalists (especially getting them to put out anti-communist agitprop), leftist-org penetration agents, witting and unwitting police captains. They ran both ultra-conservative and social democratic / center-left media and political orgs.

      These campaigns destabilized and divided the country, and the CIA was laughing while people on the streets were killing each other.

      Their #1 goal: to get the Ecuadorian government to cut ties with Cuba and denounce communism, expel Cuban diplomats, and alienate them from Cuba and the USSR. If any org was even vaguely pro-Cuba, regardless of how left it was, the goal was to either take it over from the inside, or if that proved impossible, then make a new org friendly to US interests.

      The US knows that the greatest threat to capitalist-imperialism and its overall power, is the threat of a good example, in the form of nations who reject its dominance. Anti-communism becomes the new witch-hunting campaign to unite all these disparate groups, to act on behalf of US interests.

      • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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        23 小时前

        Well said! That’s an interesting book, I’ll have to give it a look. The US knows its enemies very well, it isn’t irrational, it follows a concrete set of interests, the interests of profit and accumulation.

  • insanemantis@lemmy.world
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    9 小时前

    How about not supporting any government?

    Is it really that hard to imagine? I don’t like when human rights are abused by any party

    • Tomorrow_Farewell@lemmy.ml
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      5 小时前

      How about not supporting any government?

      This is a very silly position that isn’t supported by anybody but very naive ancaps. Even anarchists don’t support that.

      What your position means is effectively just support for the most prolific invaders in the world - NATO, - who very much do benefit from the dismantlement of governments in the Global South, i.e. what you are proposing.

        • Tomorrow_Farewell@lemmy.ml
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          2 小时前

          Not even anarchists support that.

          Also, again, if you support the dismantlement of governments that are opposed to NATO before the dismantlement of the latter, all you do is support the most prolific insert in the world.

        • Zwrt
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          1 小时前

          T_F does not speak for anarchists who wholeheartly agree with the meaning of your message.

          Power corrups, subjecting an healthy adult to anyone other then themselves is always harm. And even for the immature and ill we should strive to maximise their freedom and expressions.

          Good governements can exist in theory but no nation on earth is even close to resembling annything but facism.

          Personally i believe when a good governement will emerge it will not be any nation that provides it and instead be a set of logical open source ideas, concept and methods that may voluntarily spread amongst the self organised communities of people in however ways they choose.

          Will it be perfect society… absolutely not. Bad people will still exist. But they will be smaller and less powerfull.

          • 挂路灯人@lemmy.ml
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            47 分钟前

            Power corrupts

            Magical thinking helps no one. Power is not a magic force that corrupts all who touch it, this isn’t Lord of the Rings. It is a social relation that allows people to more effectively work in their interests. The issue is that society in much of the world thus far has been structured such that a minority class, be they the landlords and aristocracy of feudalism or the bourgeoisie of capitalism, hold an effective monopoly. They use this monopoly to extract surplus and protect their property. The solution is not to wish away power, but to seize it and democratize it, transforming it from a tool of class exploitation into an instrument of social administration.

            subjecting a healthy adult to anyone other than themselves is always harm.

            By your logic, nuclear power station workers being subject to the safety team is truly harmful. An operating room being subject to a chief surgeon is another great harm.

            Or is it possible that hierarchy is a useful social relation that has been reproduced across geography, centuries, and even species for a reason?

            In nature, coordinated structures emerge because they solve material problems of survival and resource management. In human society, as the division of labor grows more complex, large scale production physically demands coordination, discipline, and unified direction. A factory, a railway network, or a hospital cannot run on pure consensus without collapsing.

            The goal should not be to abolish all authority, which would mean abolishing industry and modern society itself. The goal should be to abolish class authority. End the subjection of people to people as exploiters, and replace it with the rational, democratic administration of things and the technical direction of production.

            • Zwrt
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              Your confusing hierarchy and authority, dont worry i also still mix them up sometimes.

              Trusting and following a leader is not the same as being subjected to an authority.

              If a chief is wrong then the assistants should be free to resist. They only follow as long as they agree with the direction.

              About abolishing major parts of modern industry and society. uhm in my wildest dreams maybe. But realistically we are better of evolving things slowly

              There is no magic involved in “power corrupts”, its just a way to reference the mental illnesses that emerge in people when leadership stops being contested.

              But i know the community i am in, i am not really here to fight tankies, that just results in stale mate. in many ways we overlap and fight the same abstracted evils really as i welcome the resistancd against the usa. My comments are intended for other inspiring anarchists who dont know what tankies are about yet frequently end up confused when sharing opinions that they tought where aligned with the opinions expessed in the content featured on ml. Because really, many memes here are delighfully refreshing for anti-nationalists.

              • 挂路灯人@lemmy.ml
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                I am not confusing hierarchy and authority. If binding decisions are being made and enforced, then authority exists. Whether someone “agrees” with the direction is irrelevant to the material reality of the situation. If a janitor believes they have a better idea for how to run the core of a nuclear reactor, they still should not be permitted to touch it. Authority in production is simply the enforcement of the binding decisions required to keep complex systems functioning.

                You casually suggest abolishing major parts of modern industry, even if “slowly.” This is nothing but a reactionary fantasy. Dismantling complex, large-scale production is deeply ableist. Sick and disabled people often rely on the highly coordinated, global production of pharmaceuticals, medical equipment, and life-sustaining infrastructure. Wishing this away privileges the temporarily able-bodied and ignores the material basis of human survival.

                Furthermore, reducing class power to “mental illness” is both idealist and ableist. Capitalists and landlords do not exploit the working class because they are individually unwell. They do so because the material structure of their class position demands it. They act in their objective class interest to preserve property relations and extract surplus. Masking systemic, material exploitation as individual pathology prevents any real understanding of how society functions.

                You claim your comments are meant for “inspiring” anarchists who get confused by Marxist-Leninist content. But these are not fresh insights. They are recycled, long-debunked misunderstandings and misappropriations of political concepts. Framing idealist confusion as inspiration will only mislead people who are genuinely seeking a materialist path to oppose imperialism and capitalism.

          • Tomorrow_Farewell@lemmy.ml
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            Even anarchists support various proposed sorts of governments.

            What you are doing is simply ruining propaganda in support of destroying and subjugating the enemies of your empire under the guise of ‘all states/governments are bad’.

            • Zwrt
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              your empire

              Lel.

              If only the empires that exist today could just eliminate eachother without taking their citizens down with them, that be something to cheer for.

              We are aligned with the same abstracted enemy, the only difference is you see a head that is a solution requirring support, i see a heads of a single hydra fighting itself.

    • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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      Anything you do to act against or weaken a given state tends to benefit that state’s rivals. Unless you have some switch you can flip to overthrow every government at once, then either you refrain from meaningfully opposing your government or you make peace with the possibility that another government may benefit from your actions.

      There are cases where leftists should refrain from opposing their government, for example, during WWII, it wasn’t the best time to strike or revolt if you lived in the US. On the other hand, in WWI every side was relatively the same, so there was no need to put class war on hold, it doesn’t matter if German capitalists or French capitalists came out on top, so both German and French workers would have been justified to strike and disrupt and revolt, even though French workers doing so would benefit German capitalists and vise versa.

      Therefore, this “oppose all states” line is reductive. If someone paints the PRC as being so bad that they’re a threat on par with the Nazis, so we should put class war in the US on hold in order to stop them, then we need to evaluate whether or not that’s actually true. Which means first making the assessment, and then, if we assess that it’s not that serious of a threat, that means “defending” it (at least to an extent), it means saying things that will get you labelled as a tankie. If, on the other hand, you don’t do that, if you concede even the most extreme and far-fetched claims about them, then either you must also concede that we should drop everything to fight them, or you must adopt the unreasonable stance of weakening a state that stands between you and something equivalent to the Nazis.

      Any actual opposition to a government (as opposed to opposition merely in principle) means at least being ok with that government’s geopolitical rivals benefitting from the internal conflict. Actual opposition will almost always mean getting accused of supporting enemy states (whether you do or not), or at least of not taking their threat seriously enough. It’s necessary to have an answer for why you’re not rallying around the flag to fight off that supposedly greater evil.

        • Tomorrow_Farewell@lemmy.ml
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          4 小时前

          Do you mean the part where the pro-colonial groups headed by known CIA assets (who have been extracted to NATO) burning people alive?

          Also, it’s interesting how you people are always so vague about those events. Almost as if you don’t know what happened there but refuse to look it up and instead uncritically believe memes and words of the people who also sold you on Iraq WMDs.

            • Tomorrow_Farewell@lemmy.ml
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              If you knew, you wouldn’t have been asking, not would you be so vague.

              Also, what do you “not agree” with in this context? Why are you still so vague if not because you have never looked up what happened?

                • Tomorrow_Farewell@lemmy.ml
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                  What do I disagree with? The mass murder of covilian populace simply because they were protesting.

                  So, I was correct that you never actually looked up what happened, and your understanding is informed purely by memes.

                  It’s pretty funny how you claim that working for the CIA and burning people alive is “just protesting”.

                  Also, why are you not opposed to Taiwan actually kidnapping and executing people for things like protesting, choosing words wrong when translating things, or just being suspected of dissent?

                  Not sure if you noticed, but the centralized authority in that situation brought out tanks. To a civilian protest. To kill civilians for protesting.

                  The actual protestors left beforehand. You are thinking of the CIA assets that burned people alive.

                  Also, do please tell me if you think that the person from the picture was killed by the tanks.

                  And before you get to it, I also disagree with the U.S. doing the exact same thing, many times.

                  Except, you are claiming that the GMD enacting White Terror and subjugating Taiwan on behalf of NATO is perfectly fine and “independence” and totally not central authorities engaging in anything.

                  They can both be bad guys, and, not surprisingly, the exact same kind of bad guy.

                  Concluding that the PRC is as bad as NATO requires one to ignore all the atrocities that keep being committed by NATO.

                • BrainInABox@lemmy.ml
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                  3 小时前

                  And look at that, turns out all those assumptions you bristled at despite being obviously true, were true

                • BanMeFromPosting@lemmy.ml
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                  Hello, I see you got banned. I’m sorry to see that, I would suggest maybe being more civil next time and just explaining what it is you want to know or whatever assumption you have and then going from there instead. Since you were asking for information about Taiwan I figure you would also want some about Tienanmen square, here’s some articles for you

                  The wests most pervasive lie Going through what lead to the “protests” on the square - which were in reality more like an armed occupation. It also touches on western reporting at the time, and how it changes. All of this is of course verifiable for yourself, so use it as a starting point.
                  Threat of counterrevolution Yet another article that busts some myths about the days on the square and what went down. Shows some gruesome pictures of what happened to soldiers, which led to them clearing the square.
                  Here’s a good compilation of many different sources
                  Here’s the leaked cables from BBC acknowledging no protesters were killed on the square
                  Another article
                  Here’s Qiaocollectives writeup. It is quite comprehensive, despite it’s pro-PRC bias
                  Here’s a fun compilation comparing “Tank Man” with similar events elsewhere

        • Tomorrow_Farewell@lemmy.ml
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          Why do you people always love fascist islands so much?

          Also, love the complaint about “one central authority” followed by bringing up Taiwan as something that you support.

            • Tomorrow_Farewell@lemmy.ml
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              So, a populace of a country (wanting to) declaring (declare) sovereignty as an independent state/authority, after many, many years of being an independent state/authority is a centralized authority

              The GMD had to engage in decades of White Terror, including against people that wanted to be independent from them, including by executing pregnant women and babies, in order to subjugate said populace on behalf of NATO.

              It’s amazing that you support such atrocities, in addition to this fascist island being involved in the genocide of Palestinians, and complain about independence of their state (i.e. the ability of their elders to help NATO plunder Asia).

              and somehow an empirical authority declaring ownership of said country is somehow not in any way an action of a centralized authority?

              Quick question: how do you think the GMD came to rule Taiwan?

  • morallysuperior@lemmy.ml
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    When I think about all the problems in the world and the best possible use of my time the number one priority must be pushing back against tankies on small network of open source servers. The biggest threat to life on earth are leftists who don’t agree with what is obvious and right, the neutral and objectively correct US centric world view. Should I organize my workplace or go outside and enjoy life? No, I will sit at my computer and harass open source developers with all my free time so I can mitigate this clear and present danger to myself and others.

  • Nola@piefed.zip
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    Excuse you OP, don’t you understand that I am NOT aligned with US imperialism.

    Must I tap the sign for you all AGAIN

    image

  • PotatoesFall@discuss.tchncs.de
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    I can spend all day saying that that US capitalism is the biggest global threat to all forms of democracy but I squint my eyes at Putin once and (some!) people here will call me a star-spangled liberal. Frankly it’s frustrating.

    I totally see why tankies are pissed off with some of the people who criticize you, because many of those people are indeed absolute idiots, just like most people on the internet. But if you throw everyone you disagree with into the liberal basket, you’ve taken the easy way out.

    • AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.ml
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      I give lip service about imperialism being bad but then support it anyway. It’s so frustrating when people compare me to others I agree with but don’t have the aesthetic I hope to project.

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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      The biggest struggle Marxist-Leninists have right now is often getting people to understand imperialism as a material process and stage in capitalism, rather than a whim of this or that state. That’s often why many of us react rather sharply when someone uses a clearly less developed understanding of imperialism and mechanically applies it to Russia. Most people are on board with socialism. Most people at the moment are not on board with truly understanding that existing socialist states are heavily propagandized against, and this applies doubly to non-socialist states that align themselves against the imperialist powers out of a sense of self-preservation, which includes Russia and Iran.

    • davel [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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      But if you throw everyone you disagree with into the liberal basket, you’ve taken the easy way out.

      Okay, but we’re not doing that. We’re not calling anarchists or other socialists liberals.

      We are however calling social democrats liberals, because welfare capitalism is still capitalism.

      • PotatoesFall@discuss.tchncs.de
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        That’s fair and I agree with you. I have made different experiences as well, unfortunately, but if I throw you in the same basket, I’m not exactly practicing what I preach lol

      • Urist@lemmy.ml
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        I think we should admit that there is some oversensitivity with regard to perceived liberal agendas and that sometimes this gives way to reductionist characterisation and dismissal of opposition in our communities.

        I also do not think that admitting as such is anything tantamount to confirmation of the tankie critique by the liberals (see what I did there?), which is also arguably even worse on this exact issue.

    • RiverRock@lemmy.ml
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      but I squint my eyes at Putin once

      I would be curious to know what exactly this entailed, because if past events are anything to go by it may have been a less than tactful approach.

  • Cysio@lemmygrad.ml
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    Or the Ukraine flag alongside Palestine flag

    like, those two are explicitly incompatible

    • vas@lemmy.ml
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      1 天前

      I want to ask a personal question, direct and no sarcasm, if that’s OK. A question to you and to @Dessalines.

      Do you rather support Russia or Ukraine? Do you rather support Palestine or Israel?

      • davel [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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        1 天前

        I stand with the Palestinians without reservation and against the state of Israel.

        As for Russia & Ukraine, here’s an info dump.

        Previously:

        Honest question from a non-communist, based on your reply here. Does one need to support Putin to be a Marxist?

        In a word, no. In a few more words, support for Russia (not Putin, as historical materialists don’t subscribe to great man theory) is only a partial, temporary, tactical one, in the context of imperialist liberation. Russia is still a capitalist state, though, so it’s a two stage strategy: first liberate colonized bourgeois states from colonizer states, and second revolution within those liberated bourgeois states.

        Russia is an interesting case: it has already liberated itself from the post-Soviet “shock therapy” neocolonizers. This occurred during Putin’s administration, which is why he is especially hated by the US. So now the support for Russia is in the context of keeping the colonizers from recolonizing it, and supporting Russia to the extent that it helps other states liberate themselves. But Russia isn’t trying to “liberate” Ukraine, at least not all of Ukraine. It’s trying to resolve the genocidal attacks on the people of the Donbas, and it’s trying to resolve the imperialist military expansion at its border.


        Previously:


        Previously:


        Previously:

        NATO expansion:

         
        NATO in general:

        • mrpxilo@lemmy.zip
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          Would you say that you’re wearing imperialist clothes then for the tactical benefit, like a soldier on a secret mission disguised as the enemy?

          Everyone understands Russia is correct to invade because NATO can’t be a neighbor, and that NATO is correct to “take” Ukraine because it’s possible and useful in keeping Russia in check. The problem is that this is imperialist logic. The common sense that runs the world of zero sum capitalists. The “think of the shareholders” of geopolitics.

          • Tomorrow_Farewell@lemmy.ml
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            What action do you suggest for a state when the most prolific invader in the world subjugates nearby countries and starts amassing military personnel and equipment on its border or otherwise in position to attack it?

          • BanMeFromPosting@lemmy.ml
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            Imperialism isn’t just “when a country invades another country” it is an actual mode of capitalism wherein capital, in the need to extract as much wealth as possible, is driven to subjugate other nations. That’s not why Russia invaded and you’re not seeing those processes occur now - Or at least not on the russian side. Do you know who has signed extortionate deals with Ukraine to extract its natural resources for pennies on the dollar? That’s right, the west!

            If you’re gonna use big words, learn what they mean. Here’s a good text

        • vas@lemmy.ml
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          1 天前

          Thank you for the answer.

          I wholeheartedly agree with you on the topic of Palestine and Israel, with strong support for the freedom and independence of Palestine and against the state of Israel.

          I’m very thrown aback by your stance on the topic of Ukraine and Russia. In particular:

          In a few more words, support for Russia … is only a partial, temporary, tactical one

          To me, that is atrocious. It’s a bit like you see a bully beating another person to a pulp on the street, and you say you support this action as a partial, temporary, tactical support. Whichever great cause is set on a pedestal (such as supporting the bully in order for later to overthrow them, what could possibly go wrong), it is a crime to support it.

          Right now, the best thing that can happen to Russia, I believe, is stopping the war. That is possible only if Russia as an aggressor country is stopped, and a peace treaty is forced on Russia, whether with Putin alive or not does not matter.


          I have trouble processing this world view from an admin of lemmy.ml. I will need to take my time to process this information.

          • Tomorrow_Farewell@lemmy.ml
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            To me, that is atrocious.

            So, you think that the rest of the world does not have a right to defend itself against the most prolific invader in the world - NATO - that also happens to be committing at least one high-profile genocide right now?

            Right now, the best thing that can happen to Russia, I believe, is stopping the war.

            How would that benefit Russia (or the rest of the Global South, for that matter), and not just help the most prolific invader in the world?

            That is possible only if Russia as an aggressor country is stopped, and a peace treaty is forced on Russia

            So, the most prolific invader in the world doing a coup against a neighbouring state and trying to amass military personnel and weapons on one’s border is suddenly not aggression? You think that that is perfectly okay and should not be acted upon?

          • Zorro [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            I don’t think it’s possible to look at the Russia-Ukraine war without considering the role of NATO. I care about ending this war which is devastating to working class people. I don’t think it’s a truthful analysis to say that Russia is just a big bully here who holds all the cards. If you look at Russia’s actions, most escalations on Russia’s side have been a reaction to actions from NATO. To think that more escalation from NATO will lead to a quicker end to the war is contrary to this historic pattern. Russia sees NATO as an existential threat, so it has a lot of motivation to keep fighting Ukraine to prevent NATO from spreading further to Russia’s border. NATO’s actions, to increase aggression towards Russia, only increase Russia’s motivation to keep fighting. If NATO were to pull back from Ukraine, make concessions to Russia that it will not expand further, and will allow Russia to trade and collaborate with European countries, then Russia has very little incentive to keep fighting Ukraine because they no longer see an existential threat. For Ukrainians it is devastating to be in the middle in this conflict, while not having any influence on the course of the war. But it’s a reality that I cannot change. All I can do is pressure my own government to work towards peace instead of continued aggression.

            • vas@lemmy.ml
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              If you look at Russia’s actions, most escalations on Russia’s side have been a reaction to actions from NATO.

              Is your argument reallly that Russia’s invasion is justified because Russia was provoked? So a good country that should be supported, totally has the right to invade another one if the other one is doing something not to your liking?

              Russia sees NATO as an existential threat, so it has a lot of motivation

              Who cares? I mean, it is a lie as the head of Russian state only really cares for money and power. But even if that would be true, that Russia would see NATO as an existential threat. Who cares? You should support Ukraine in its fight for existence and independence even if that pisses Russia. NATO or Ukraine have no obligation to please Russia.

              On the contrary, Europe and other countries should take concrete actions to protect themselves. There is an obvious aggressor. If the aggressor sees your safety as their existential threat, and the aggressor is invading other countries, your only reasonable option is to be prepared to defend yourself and help others who are fighting for their existence and their independence. There’s no other choice unless your argument is “just give the aggressor what it wants, surely it’s gonna fix the problem”. And that in particular is very, very, very well studied to be wrong. An aggressor like that never stops given reduced resistance.

              • Tomorrow_Farewell@lemmy.ml
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                Who cares?

                Everybody who is at risk of being attacked by the most prolific invader in the world that has been holding most of the world in colonial subjugation for the past few centuries.

                Who cares? You should support Ukraine in its fight for existence and independence even if that pisses Russia.

                You don’t support Ukraine’s independence from NATO, and you don’t support its people who very much do not want to keep getting abducted off the streets.

                Also, why should one care about the existence of nazi governments, like nazi Germany, the US, today’s nazi Germany, Ukraine, etc. over the well-being of the people who are attacked by them?

                NATO or Ukraine have no obligation to please Russia.

                “Nazi Germany has no obligation to please the USSR”.

                On the contrary, Europe and other countries should take concrete actions to protect themselves.

                Why? Why should the invaders of Iraq and Afghanistan, the genocidaires of Palestine be protected?

                There is an obvious aggressor. If the aggressor sees your safety as their existential threat, and the aggressor is invading other countries, your only reasonable option is to be prepared to defend yourself and help others who are fighting for their existence and their independence

                So, now, you support Russia against the most prolific invader in the world that has been invading other countries, committing genocides, and pushing for war with Russia? You seem to be very confused.

              • TiredTiger@lemmy.ml
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                NATO expansion against Russia’s borders has been one of their red lines for over 40 years at this point. The West knew exactly how Russia would respond, and pushed Ukraine to join deliberately. This is a proxy war, and one the West appears to be tiring of; eventually they will lose interest altogether and Ukraine will be forced to surrender.

                • NonconfrontationaI@lemmy.ml
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                  And the atrocities NATO and the US has committed in Europe, Libya, Afghanistan, etc.

                  I’ve never seen an etc. that held this much implied information behind it lol.

              • Zorro [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                I’m not making any moral judgements. I care about ending the suffering that came from this war, and I think your analysis is based on wishful thinking and fantasy stories that you have been told about Ukraine and NATO. There’s too much for me to dissect to continue this conversation.

          • 挂路灯人@lemmy.ml
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            1 天前

            Your street bully analogy fails spectacularly at really understanding the conflict on a basic level. It treats a complex geopolitical struggle as a random act of individual malice, ignoring the historical trajectory and objective forces at play.

            In 2014, the legitimately elected government of Ukraine was overthrown in a US-backed coup. The subsequent regime empowered nationalist elements as their virulent Russophobia made them a useful proxy for Western capital and NATO expansion.

            This war is many things but it is categorically not an unprovoked assault on an innocent bystander. The new Kyiv government almost immediately launched a campaign of ethnic cleansing against the predominantly Russian-speaking population in the Donbass. The Minsk agreements of 2014 and 2015 expose this dynamic entirely. Kyiv repeatedly violated the terms, refusing to implement the political provisions regarding Donbass autonomy. Ceasefire violations were routine and the shelling of civilian infrastructure in the east continued for close to a decade.

            This material reality forced the populations of Donetsk and Luhansk to organize their own defense. This led to the formation of the LPR and DPR, alongside Crimea moving to reunify with Russia. This civil conflict is the direct precursor to the current war.

            Kyiv was deliberately cultivated as a geopolitical spearhead against Russia. To evaluate Russia’s response through the lens of abstract morality is to ignore objective conditions. Russia’s actions were a logical and foreseeable reaction to a hostile military infrastructure constructed on its border by a hegemonic power. You cannot isolate a single event from the chain of material cause and effect that produced it.

            • vas@lemmy.ml
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              23 小时前

              So you support Russia going to war on the territory of another country ~“because other countries did not leave it any choice” or so? The NATO that was mostly forgotten and dormant before Russian’s invasion and received a small fraction of its attention and funding now, that same NATO, just did not leave Russia any choice but to attack at all? And Russia absolutely could not avoid invading Ukraine, it just had to do it, in attempts to fix internal Ukranian problems, as perceived by Russia. Oh and the poor populations of Donetsk, legally and otherwise belonging to Ukraine, had to be invaded too and their lives are now improving?

              What you’re saying is shameful. You’re not even giving Ukraine autonomy in your explanation of the “geopolitical struggle”. You’re saying “US” and “Russia”, but not “Ukranian people chose to _”.

              • Tomorrow_Farewell@lemmy.ml
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                5 小时前

                The NATO that was mostly forgotten and dormant before Russian’s invasion

                ???
                Did you miss things like the invasions of Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Iran, the genocide of Palestine - things that have been very high-profile and happening this century.

                And Russia absolutely could not avoid invading Ukraine

                Okay, suggest an alternative course of action for a state whom the most prolific invader is gathering forces on the border of, or nearby, especially after subjugating nearby countries.

                You’re not even giving Ukraine autonomy in your explanation

                Why do you care about the autonomy of states (i.e. the freedom of rulers of those states to do whatever they want), rather than the well-being of the vast majority of people in the world?

              • 挂路灯人@lemmy.ml
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                22 小时前

                I very specifically did not declare support or condemnation. Subjective moralizing is irrelevant to analyzing historical reality. Explaining the material causes of an event is not the same as endorsing it. My point was that Russia’s actions were a logical and foreseeable reaction to objective conditions, not that they operated with some metaphysical lack of choice.

                Your claim that NATO was dormant or forgotten is historically illiterate. In the decade preceding this conflict, that same alliance bombed and destabilized multiple sovereign nations, including Libya and Afghanistan. It is not a defensive pact that suddenly woke up. It is an expanding military bloc.

                Any state would perceive a foreign-backed coup and a hostile military buildup on its border as a direct threat. This is basic geopolitical reality, exactly as it was during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Expecting a major power to passively accept its border being turned into a staging ground for a rival hegemon is naive.

                You speak of Ukrainian self-determination while offering blatant apologetics for the eight-year shelling of the Donbas and the suppression of Crimea. True autonomy was discarded in 2014. The majority of the Ukrainian population did not choose the current path of perpetual war and subordination to Western interests. That is precisely why a forceful coup was required to install the current regime, sparking the civil war that escalated into the current conflict.

                Analyzing how and why events happen requires looking at material reality, not retreating into abstract ravings about street bullies and metaphysical musts.

  • medem@lemmy.wtf
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    I’m actually most concerned about Germans still defending “Israel”'s actions in Gaza (of which at least a part was payed using their taxes). I don’t even know how to label it. Delusion? Stupidity? Hypocrisy? Whatever the correct term is, their way of coming clean with the genocide they commited in the past by supporting a genocide in the present is simply beyond me.

    • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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      It seems the lesson they learned wasn’t “don’t do genocide” so much as “get someone else to do your dirty work to avoid being held accountable for genocide.”

        • NonconfrontationaI@lemmy.ml
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          23 小时前

          If I’m not mistaken, some of the original reasoning behind targeting the Jews in particular is because the “Aryan” idealogues thought that the Jewish race was the only real competition.

          Like they were jealous lol

          • BanMeFromPosting@lemmy.ml
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            20 小时前

            I always figured it was a sort of stand-in for hating muslims, since Europe didn’t have a lot of muslims at that point (The whole anti-semitism what with most semites being muslim) but the ottomans are a big cultural memory

            • NonconfrontationaI@lemmy.ml
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              19 小时前

              Well I’m sure they didn’t like muslims but hating Jews in Europe is literally as old as Judaism lol. I think they borrowed heavily from the Thule society and weirdo German conspiracy theories, as well as the “stabbed in the back” myth. Very interesting stuff if you don’t mind actively making yourself dumber lol.

              It’s the same thing happening today with the focus shifted to Muslims, trans people, and immigrants in general. There always needs to be an out group.

  • omgboom@lemmy.worldBanned from community
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    16 小时前

    My genocidal government is morally superior to your genocidal government because reasons

    • RiverRock@lemmy.ml
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      16 小时前

      Liberalism’s last line of defense is “Trust me, everyone else is just as bad as us”

      • omgboom@lemmy.worldBanned from community
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        Did you just call me a fucking liberal? I’m an anarchist

        • BanMeFromPosting@lemmy.ml
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          12 小时前

          Words are cheap and you use yours to run cover for the US empire and spit state department talking points. What you think of yourself doesnt matter, its what you do that matters. Lib.

            • BrainInABox@lemmy.ml
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              3 小时前

              “You should be killed if you don’t believe my country’s atrocity propaganda against its enemies. Also, you’re a an authoritarian”

              Average western ‘anarchist’

            • BanMeFromPosting@lemmy.ml
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              5 小时前

              You sound really tough lol, it does not surprise me that you’ve got so little going in life that you’d want to get your ass kicked over someone calling you a liberal.

              If you’re going to write shit like this, then you need to be novel with it, the redditisms of “cordially go fuck yourself” were tired 10 years ago, they really have no punch left.

              Now, since I’m critiquing you anyway, you should also improve your rhetorics. Saying “oh but I say this” as an argument for why youre not a liberal (you are) is something we’ve already been through. Repeating it while adding nothing new just makes you appear like a dense dumbass.

              Now I’m sorry, to disappoint your racist ass, but China isnt committing a genocide against either tibetans or uyghurs. I’d free Tibet, but Mao has already done it. I’d encourage you to actually read the report detailing “genocide” and pay special attention to the methodology. I would then encourage you to find any actual picture of any of the “camps”. An actual picture that is verified, not just something someone says is a picture.

              Anyway Canadian healthcare is free, you should look into it.

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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          13 小时前

          I think the point is that simplistically collapsing everything into a perfectly even level of evil is in line with liberalism’s analytical errors. It’s not actionable analysis, and further implies socialist states are genocidal, which isn’t historically accurate at all.

    • MaxLemminist@lemmy.ml
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      Is there a more pavlovian duo than tankie and authoritarian?
      In the mind of the heavily indoctrinated anti-communist those 2 words pop up like clockwork.

    • BanMeFromPosting@lemmy.ml
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      22 小时前

      Authoritarian is a completely useless descriptor made up by an anti-semite who believed the jews deserved the holocaust because they didn’t resist enough.
      The work was quickly, if not from the beginning, picked up by the CIA and used as propganda.

      Any definition of authoritarian is either so broad as to describe any hierarchy or so specific you might just use the proper noun for whatever group you want to scaremonger about. There is no state that is not authoritarian and (pulling a number out of my ass here) 99% of all organisations are “authoritarian” as well. Every state uses the monopoly on violence to enforce itself.

      • SpaghettiMaster@feddit.uk
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        22 小时前

        You get different amounts of personal freedom though. Can you own a gun. Is it legal to carry bladed tools. Can you grow weed. Can you make your own rum.

        If there is a better term to use I’m all for it.

        • freagle@lemmy.ml
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          Sure, but in the USA, we imprison more people per capita than the Soviet GULAG system did at its height. In the present day, only Cuba and El Salvador beat the USA in prison population, but only just barely and only in the last couple of years. China’s prison population is a tiny fraction of the US’s (again per capita).

          But that’s not the worst part. The worst part is that the USA also has a large parole system and a probation system, and most other countries do not. The probation and parole systems are systems by which the criminal justice system (court, police officers, state actors) surveil, monitor, audit, and direct the lives of citizens. And there are twice as many people on parole/probation in the USA as there are in prison.

          Do that math for a second. El Salvador is running torture prisons for the USA and we are deporting people there. And our criminal justice system is managing 300% more of our citizens than El Salvador is.

          What definition of authoritarianism allows you to say “I can own a gun and smoke weed” while state authorities manage literally 1200% more people than China does?

          It’s non-sensical to me.

        • BanMeFromPosting@lemmy.ml
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          20 小时前

          First of all:

          It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed person, who goes about hungry, and cannot find employment.

          Real liberty can exist only where exploitation has been abolished, where there is no oppression of some by others, where there is no unemployment and poverty, where a man is not haunted by the fear of being tomorrow deprived of work, of home and of bread. Only in such a society is real, and not paper, personal and every other liberty possible

          • Stalin

          Secondly: Arbitrary allowances isn’t what determines whether something is “authoritarian”. Everyone in China is guaranteed a home, yet I have an inkling suspicion you’d still call that place “authoritarian”.


          Thirdly: I would encourage you to actually read Hannah Arendts work and engage in it with a critical mind.
          “What is Authority” is about as obviously slimy as the rest of her work, and a decent place to go. I would encourage you to read Engels “On authority” as a pre- or postface. Engels’ text is quite short.
          In an ideal world you would read Blackshirts & reds but I doubt that’s going to happen, so here’s a neat video
          Honestly the video goes to the point of another reason why freaking out about “authoritarian” leftists is just the result of indoctrination as well.


          That short text of Hannahs does a wonderful job of showcasing her lack of academic rigor, her lack of historical knowledge and her process of starting from a conclusion and working backwards from there. Or in the case of this text, starting from “oh shit gotta cover my ass” and going backwards from there.
          It comes at a point where “authoritarianism” is a known concept and, rightfully, one a bunch of people are shitting on. So she has to scramble to explain herself, which is how she makes up a NEW concept: Totalitarianism. (I’m being reductive here, she isn’t introducing totalitarianism, but she’s trying to make a distincition because people shit on her.)

          You see, since authoritarianism is actually all states, that means she has to do work to explain how it’s actually okay to be authoritarian (never mind how she used this conecpt to explain how Hitler and Stalin were totally the same) and it’s TOTALITARIANISM that’s the real badguyism.
          Authoritarianism is a pyramid and authority exists outside the pyramid, so authority isn’t real actually because it’s law or polis or the feeling of ancestors being cool, that’s where authority comes from. So that means when we use authority that’s okay because we are bound by the law or some shared sense of civic duty or whatever(which is some supernatural force and not just a social contract which the very same pyramid exists to enforce, let’s not talk about that), while the real bad guys they don’t have the law at all! (I mean they do, the bad guys have laws too, but it’s not at all the same because the bad guys make the laws, we just enforce them. The difference is whether it feels like they have no influence on the making of laws) you see totalitarianism is an onion, it’s just a guy making decisions however he feels like.

          Now how do we determine whether some country is authoritarian (like us, she agrees there, but authoritarianism is actually cool and good it’s just vibes about founding fathers and loving liberty) or totalitarian? Glad you asked! We have completely arbitrary definitions and absolutely no functional criteria! (By the way she pisses on others for making arbitrary terms grounded in nothing). And the things she comes up with she still has to admit suck shit.

          Here’s a goodie:

          All those who call modern dictatorships “authoritarian,” or mistake totalitarianism for an authoritarian structure, have implicitly equated violence with authority, and this includes those conservatives who explain the rise of dictatorships in our century by the need to find a surrogate for authority. The crux of the argument is always the same: everything is related to a functional context, and the use of violence is taken to demonstrate that no society can exist except in an authoritarian framework

          Basically: We can have a state monopoly on violence and not be authoritarian and if you disagree then you’re a cuck.

          Here’s another goodie:

          Authority as the one, if not the decisive, factor in human communities did not always exist, though it can look back on a long history, and the experiences on which this concept is based are not necessarily present in all bodies politic. The word and the concept are roman in origin. Neither the Greek language nor the varied political experiences of Greek history shows any knowledge of authority and the kind of rule it implies. This is expressed most clearly in the philosophy of Plato and Aristotle, who, in quite different ways but from the same political experiences, tried to introduce something akin to authority into the public life of the Greek polis.

          She argues antique GREECE had no concept of authority, the romans invented it and (later on she goes into how) Macciavelli rediscovered it. Three nations filled to the brim with slaves, yet somehow authority is a foreign concept. These things were handled “prepolitically”. You see, these people had to own slaves, so that means it’s not authoritarian. Yeah sure we just get to make up shit. Soviet gulags had a higher quality of life than the US prison system from 1952 onwards, yet one of those is authoritarian in her eyes, the other is just prepolitical.
          By the way the “authority comes from ancestors” is something she brings up about romans.

          I take it back, don’t read Hannah, I forgot how fucking dogshit she is. Reading her to understand how much shit she sucks is just not worth it, let it be a massive gap in your education and instead just learn to understand why people are authoritarian - Even though the word, as Hannah here herself admits by omission - is completely pointless, since it describes all nations and almost all organisations.

          She sets up no functional criteria, because if she did then she’d be fucked. What she does set up is metaphors that still fuck her, because in her view “authority” is some higher concept existing above the “pyramid” of ruling, yet when you have things that - in her view - is outside rulership and acting upon the pyramid of rulership, that’s actually not it at all.

          The founding of america happened without violence by the way, and the colonization of the Americas that was just hunky dory.

          THIS is the academic work which lies beneath the concept of authoritarianism. It’s nothing.
          I would say the CIA is not sending their best, but she really was one of their best, which is bleak.


          There is no other “better term” because the term is useless. It’s synonymous with “badguyism” it’s just a descriptor used for designated enemies, like calling a government a “regime” or a deputy a “hand picked successor”.

        • morallysuperior@lemmy.ml
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          20 小时前

          So china is less authoritarian than the US. I’d prefer the personal freedom to not starve, to be able to afford and maintain housing regardless of employment than I would to own a gun and become homeless and starve if I lose my job in the US.

            • BanMeFromPosting@lemmy.ml
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              2 小时前

              Hello! I would not normally want to continue responding, but since you decided to send me a DM I’m gonna make use of this to get a last word in tee hee.
              You are aware that China does not have slave labor, right? I don’t know about “reeductaion camps”, what you specifically mean about that. Like prisons are a thing, and the goal of prison is to rehabilitate prisoners - at least in China.
              The only major power I know of with an actual slave labor force is the US wherein slavery is still legal “as fitting punishment” per the 13th amendment which probably explains the massive prison population that country has.
              Talking about “propagandised” populations I feel like you’re being incredibly orientalist here. Like look at how agressively you reacted with being presented with information that contradicted your worldview - telling me to eat your ass and calling me tankie scum. You didn’t have any reason to argue against the texts given, but you still feel like “China bad”. On the other hand China seems to have a wide swathe of opinions and political movements. There’s 9 parties in government compared to the 2 the US has, there’s massive public debates about all sorts of stuff over there. Every chinese person I’ve met has been, well, a person, not some brainwashed drone.

    • krolden@lemmy.ml
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      22 小时前

      As I’ve grown older I’ve found people need to be told what to do because they’re mostly idiots

      • SpaghettiMaster@feddit.uk
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        22 小时前

        How much of that telling people what to do comes from racism though? Planning laws here which are often intentionally oppressive towards Romani and Irish travellers. Anyone who is interested in any kind of alternative lifestyle may also end up being targeted by it.

        • BanMeFromPosting@lemmy.ml
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          20 小时前

          urban planning is a spook. Fuck urban planners (I used to be one)
          le corbusier should have been drowned, revived, drowned again, revived again and so on in perpetuity. Piece of shit idiot asshole. Two centuries of urban planning and all we have to show for it is “Don’t do what those guys did, but you still gotta give the piggies their money and you still have to pretend this is apolitical even though the entire job is incredibly political” fucking dogshit branch of work, only people worse are architects. And lawyers. And cops. And politicians. And factory farmers. And prison guards. And soldiers. But otherw- and record executives. All executives really. Some academicians as well. But then it’s urban planners, fucking pigshit rubberstamping bureaucrats just existing to ram through whatever dogshit idea the local bourgeoisie has making things nice is impossible making shit is easy and if you make anything nice then you gotta fuck over at least two marginalised groups and we’re making a commission to figure out how we can fuck up the nice part
          We do not need urban planning we did not have urban planners for centuries and it was fine. It’s technocratic bullshit that came around in the 1880’s, it’s dumb and it should be relegated to the dustbin of history.

          feel like shit, just want radical planning back