This is why I tell people Ukraine is the real barometer for whether or not you’re a leftist or a radlib.
Palestine is a barometer for people that have a heart. Ukraine is a barometer for people that have a brain.
China is a good one too, though Ukraine is indeed better
China is a barometer for someone having ever read a book. Any socialist who reads about Chinese history would end up sympathetic to the CPC or at least greatly prefer them over any of the alternatives. Genuine socialists who oppose China are simply ignorant. I can’t accept that the human brain can sustain the cognitive dissonance required to be an anti-China socialist.
Russia/Ukraine, Iran and DPRK are the three big litmus tests right now, IMHO. And by Iran, I mean supporting the “regime” as it is (critically of course), not just cheering for them because Trump Bad.
China support is already becoming “acceptable in polite society” just like supporting Palestine now is, at least among the young people, see for example the extremely liberal-individualist trend of China-maxxing. Still ways to go but the people are generally warming up to it.
A British “socialist” once told me that he was torn on Palestine Action because while he did oppose the genocide in Palestine he didn’t like the fact that Palestine Action attacks factories that create job opportunities for working class brits.
A socialist who prioritizes nationalism. One might even call him a national socialist.
Can we please stop using this lib-ass gotcha? The Nazis called themselves socialist to steal away support from the actual left. In practice there was nothing socialist in their politics - they broke trade unions, privatised industry, destroyed whatever meagre workers rights had been allowed by the bourgeois state. They weren’t on the side of workers - not even Aryan ones
Ultimately imperialism has to be opposed in order to oppose capitalism; imperialism and imperialist production is an extension of capitalist development, conquest, and extraction of the global south.
If one’s “socialism” doesn’t oppose imperialism, and thus the imperialist war machine, then one’s socialist beliefs and actions ultimately end up as a recuperative force to make a nicer capitalism for those living inside the imperialist nations. This is social democracy. Fascism also represents a recuperative force for capitalism and the bourgeoisie, and arises due to internal crises of capitalism and bourgeois control over society. Social democracy and fascism both act as a recuperative force for capitalism and do not challenge capitalism; this is why people say that social democracy represents the left wing of fascism.
Ultimately, no, the comparison is apt. The imperialist nations enforce a holocaust against broad swatches of the global south, just because they’re brown and out of sight for Britons doesn’t mean it’s not just as bloodthirsty a view.
An enlightened centrist
Cartoonish but unsurprising. There are a lot of imperial core so-called socialists that believe in a vulgar class warfare where anything any member of the working class does can be rescued simply because of their class membership. Naturally this is primarily weaponized against anti-imperialist action.
I’ve run into a few of these types of people
When i pointed out the ICJ is investigating Ukraine for its ethnic cleansing campaign, I was told “Don’t believe Russian lies”
When i pointed out the ICJ was the same group investigating Israel for genocide, they just short-circuited and vanished
Do you have a link to an article describing the investigation against Ukraine? It’s really difficult to find more info on that via search engines
Here is the notes on the official investigation directly from the ICJ
It’s very lengthy, but as of December of last year (2025, if anyone from the future is reading this), the court found that Russia’s claims against Ukraine bore merit and that Ukraine had to provide evidence against Russian claims
So far, it’s crickets
It’s my understanding from reading the various documents there that the court found Russia’s claims admissable, ie that the court had juristiction and the claims fall under this case rather than a new case. I’m not a lawyer so struggling to find where they discuss the merit of the claims themselves though. Can you elaborate on this further?
A lot of this is a bit too technical for me to understand it well, but so far I’m understanding that Ukraine asked the court to rule that there was no genocide being committed by Ukraine, and that Russia filed a counter claim to dispute that, which was admitted by the court who requested Ukraine to respons which it hasn’t. I don’t understand if ICJ is actually researching if Ukraine committed a genocide or not, or if it’s just researching whether it can state that definitely no genocide took place.
When did the ICJ start this investigation?
Bombs that kill Palestinian children: 😡
Bombs that ethnically cleanse Ukraine: 🥰
The AFU stands for Armed Forces of Ukraine. These artillery shells would be targeting Russian soldiers.
Edit: I think all the replies are referring to the fighting in the Donbass and Lujansk regions between the Ukrainian military and unpopular separatist groups who had Russian backing. To be clear, they were unpopular locally and had to seize power by force and shut down media and communication networks to make it harder to voice opposition. The Ukrainian military wasn’t interested in killing civilians, they were interested in freeing them from the militias that took over the areas. The hostile takeover started when Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014. Those militias eventually began to fill with actual Russian soldiers, though the exact highest fraction is unclear. Russia claimed that, if there were any Russian soldiers there, they were independent volunteers.
I know what I said
I want you to ask yourself what caused the regions of Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk to go into open rebellion against the Ukrainian state. What caused the population of those regions to feel they need to fight? Really think hard about this, ask yourself how bad things would need to get before the people around you start supporting open rebellion against your state.
Then I want you to watch this CNN clip from 2014 of some people from Donetsk talking about it.
This went on for 8 years before the Russians invaded. And it has continued throughout this war. You have a very incorrect view of Ukraine’s conduct.
Then perhaps, if you have some time:
spoiler
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https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/30/russia-ukraine-war-kiev-conflict
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https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/13/ukraine-us-war-russia-john-pilger
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https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/29/ukraine-fascists-oligarchs-eu-nato-expansion
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https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/2021-05-04/ty-article/.premium/ukrainian-official-changes-tune-on-unacceptable-march-honoring-ss-unit/0000017f-e0e2-d7b2-a77f-e3e7ee990000 (https://archive.ph/ckwv4)
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https://www.ft.com/content/7191ec30-9677-423d-873c-e72b64725c2d
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http://www.errc.org/news/anti-roma-pogroms-in-ukraine-on-c14-and-tolerating-terror
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https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/10/20/ukraine-widespread-use-cluster-munitions
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https://www.npr.org/2023/01/31/1152743054/human-rights-watch-ukraine-landmines"
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And Ukrainian civilians
What does no war and dismantle the war machine mean to you? Azov can have bombs as a little treat?
Oh I think defensive wars are fine. There are always assholes happy to conquer you. You need to be able to punch them in the mouth if they try some shit.
What was defensive about Nazis shelling civilians for 8 years?
By giving weapons to the nazis got it.
Ukraine shelled civilian population centers in Donbas for about a decade before you learned where it was on a map.
Forget Ukraine, how about starting with getting every DSA chapter to actually BE dedicated anti-zionists, instead of the suspiciously silent chapters or the Johnny-come-late bandwagonists who still talk out the side of their mouths about “Arabs in Michigan”
This is why the PSL makes you take an entire education course before you can become a full member
Some chapters have education courses, but that’s precisely the problem; it’s not centralized, it’s not standardized, it’s not enforced. Some chapters are well-oiled machines that would make Lenin proud, and then others are personality cults bizarrely centered around one dude who just happens to know the ins and outs of canvassing. Then there are the liberal chapters that straight-up just need to be purged, tho I admit they’re not as widespread as the cynics assume; they’re just annoyingly located at strategic locations
It’s like setting up a party based around roulettes, LIB, BASED, LIB, BASED, only the gods decide where the ball lands
Gosh, maybe these things are connected? 🤔
Naw, couldn’t be. Must be a coincidence. 🫠
History seems impenetrably complex and contradictory outside the lens of class struggle. The DSA needs Marxism if it is to amount to anything
DSA: sorry best at can do is to take in baby Marxists and spit out opportunists.
I’m only partly joking. There are Marxist formations in DSA that do a good job but the defanging and conversion into opportunists is also prevalent, as is the misuse of Marx by DemSoca and Socdems in it.
Two cakes?
Workers of the world except Russia, unite!
And left unity types want us to ally with these. They can’t even figure out the screen people might be lying about a blatant white supremacist puppet state.
My guy I don’t really like the invasion of Ukraine but fucking Northrump Grumman is unequivocally fucking evil. Northrump Grumman could helping fund the next socialist revolution and they’d still be evil because they’re funding fucking Israel. Protest the building you coward.
2 for 1. Nice
404 slop not found.
Maybe should go into electoralism for DSA reasons but the linked poster seems alright.
I can’t believe it they all use the same logistics supply chain whose surplus will cause even more imperialism abroad??
Two cakes
