Summary
Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez condemned Donald Trump and Elon Musk at a packed Arizona rally, accusing them of harming working-class Americans and promoting oligarchy.
Sanders denounced corporate CEOs as “major criminals” exploiting workers, while Ocasio-Cortez called for stronger Democratic leadership.
Rallygoers urged Ocasio-Cortez to challenge Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer after he supported a Republican funding bill.
The rally, part of Sanders’ “Stop Oligarchy” tour, follows criticism of the Democratic Party’s weak response to Trump’s agenda and features further events in Colorado and Arizona.
I was there. It was awesome seeing so many people. I prefer Mutualism over Democratic Socialism, but like AOC said there, “no matter if you disagree with me on a few things, if you are willing to fight for someone you don’t know, you are welcome here.”
I’ve even been telling my friend group that now’s not the year to criticize tankies so long as they’re fighting fascists
Thanks. I needed a rally to know that. So what’s the plan to stop this screw over without relying on the people to be cannon fodder and resort to violence? More rallies and fund raisers for the party of the meek and moral victories? Bit of /s in there.
No, you are so right, why have rallies at all, when we can just let everyone think they are alone in their opposition to fascism. What’s the point of letting the media and politicians know the current administration does NOT have a mandate.
Rallies unite and focus people. People meet at these rallies, become friends, form groups, etc.
You can unite, focus, make friends, form groups at the peaceful protests going on right now. The people are doing something. The perception I am getting is two people already in positions of influence trying to make changes, making money hand over fist doing these things, and getting screwed again by people like Schumer and Pelosi. Heart’s in the right place, method needs to change.
Why not both? We need to be hitting the road running from as many angles as we can to get people mobilized.
Can you point me to where they are making money? Or just a general all politicians are making money deal. Cause for sure on that.
it is about time. i am willing to be cannon fodder and start standing in front of tanks. let’s shut down the ICE facilities
There is none. Bernie has passed the torch to AOC whose politics are subordinate to the democrats.
I really hope this “AOC takes over the Democratic Party and saves America” arc has a happy ending
She’s a young, outspoken woman of color. Old white people would never let it happen, even if half are in a nursing home mainlining Fox News straight into their frontal cortex and can barely walk on their own.
A lot of folk are still recovering from Obama being elected twice.
At least Bernie looks familiar to them, so the hatred will be tampered.
Actually the groups that swung the election for Trump were young men (HUGE swing), and immigrants (despite voting against their own interests and pulling the ladder up behind them for future immigration).
Senior men were more likely to vote for Kamala than young men.
Not really. There wasn’t a huge swing of people switching from Democrats or independents to vote for Trump. Those target groups just decided not to vote. In other words, it’s not like more people are relating to Trump’s messages, but it’s people not relating with either’s message and feeling apathetic. This is why Trump bashing isn’t helping. There needs to be genuine improvement of the Democratic party itself.
Traditional democrats swung huge for Trump. Young men, immigrants, working class. Even many groups who didn’t vote said that they would have voted for Trump if voting was a requirement. If voting had been mandatory, Trump would have won the popular vote by even more.
It was a blowout on almost every level. Young women, particularly college-educated young women, are the only group who swung left this past election. Make of that what you will.
Show me the data.
Trump received less than 300k more votes in 2024 than in 2020. That is less than 1% increase. Adjusted for the voting population, he actually received less votes in 2024 than 2020.
Harris received about 10 MILLION less votes in 2024 than Biden in 2020, about a 13% decrease.
Sure, when you look at percentages, it seems like there was a swing, but that’s just not true. The data shows every year, Republicans vote for Republicans, but Democrats do not vote at all when they don’t fully support their leader (not even for a third party).
The exact same thing happened with Obama, but inverse. There were historically high increase in voter turnout because the constituents actually supported him.
Data shows that increase in voter turnout correlates with Blue wins. That’s not debatable.
We gotta figure out how to De-Tate people
Immigrants did still vote for Kamala as a majority (55%).
I wasn’t aware of the massive jump Trump had achieved with young men. Looks like it was especially true with young white men, with nearly two thirds voting for Trump. Less than 30% of young men from other racial demographics voted for Trump with the exception of Latinos (45%).
Overall the biggest jumps were with Latinos and young white men but he saw an increase in nearly of every demographic except older white people with whom he has historically had majority support.
The powers and process screwed over Bernie in 2016. It would have unquestionably been a clear victory over orange circus clown. He would have been one of the greatest leaders in the 21st century. Now he’s too old, even though the fire is still in him. But we do know now that America hates women, especially of colour, for leaders. AOC wouldn’t have a chance until a huge social upheaval to change such attitudes and core hatred has occurred, possibly the Civil War 2/WW3.
Just like how past world wars created the world we live in today. Before WW1, before men of all social classes bled together in the trenches of Europe it was quite a different attitude regarding the rights of people and classes compared to after the event. The schools of fascism and communism was very enticing to populations after such a wanton and colossal loss of life by poor leadership on the battlefields.
Clinton and Harris didn’t lose because they were women. They lost because their campaigns were broken.
Harris was sabotaged by Biden trying to cling to power despite not being fit for the job anymore and Clinton thought she had such a guaranteed win she didn’t even bother to try to counter her image as the career politician that was everything wrong with government at the time. They would have both still lost even if they were old rich white men.
And, before you say it, Biden only won because of the pandemic. If people hadn’t been dying in droves at the time, we would have already finished with Trump’s second term by now.
a sanders/occasio-cortez ticket would work, and basically be a coronation for her, if we can do enough work to still have elections in four years.
I think AOC is awesome and I think she’d do great work as like pres/vp, but I like that she’s a representative too. She keeps the focus on congress and does a good job of showing people that it’s not just the president that matters. I’d totally vote for her if she ran for president/vp but I also would like it if she just became a congressional leader (like official minority leader or leader of a new party) for actual progressives in congress. I don’t know if that all made sense, but basically I’m trying to say that people don’t have to keep aiming higher. She does and can continue to do good work in congress and that’s just as important as presidential work
I truly love Bernie but I am pretty sure he’d tell you himself he’s too old now, and even if not, MANY voters would have reasonable concerns. I like a Walz-Ocasio-Cortez ticket to get her in then a pres run after that though.
I unfortunately have to agree with you. With how the Harris election results went, i don’t think people are ready for a woman president, let alone a brown one. The median American is too stupid, racist, and sexist.
Maybe, people also didn’t want a neolib candidate who had no populist appeal. She didn’t acknowledge legitimate grievances of the voters. The Democrat party should’ve held primaries, but they just put Harris in at the end. There’s many factors beyond sexism.
I think this is not the right conclusion to draw from Harris and Clinton lost to Trump. They were both right-center Dems with lots of anti-left positions. Clinton voted to attack Iraq even though we all knew there were no WMDs and had been a polarizing figure for decades, she was not a good candidate. Neither was Harris, she was corporate, didn’t condemn the genocide in Israel, and courted the Cheney vote. That isn’t how to get the left to turn out. Neither had a good platform. Mitt Romney lost and so did John McCain and John Kerry I don’t hear anyone condemning Mormons or veterans being losing classes of candidates.
A principled woman who isn’t a corporate shill or pro-genocide is completely different. Our system is broken, pretending a little adjusting of the regulations or pretending the other side is acting in good faith and being gracious is clearly a losing strategy.
Sad but true. DNC thought they had it in the bag with Kamala to the Hispanic group. Did they? Nope! A lot of voters didn’t want a female leader. Mexico is doing better than US currently when comes to leadership and voters.
This is some actual leadership looks like. It’s not something that commes around every 4 years around election time trying to triangulate a voting block.
No it’s not. They’re not trying to build a third party or engage in electoral reform.
Save your praise until they actually win some victories. Marches and rallies are a good start, but they don’t necessarily translate into political action. Remember the women’s marches in 2017? The largest single day protest in American history and it did exactly two things: jack and shit. People went out, waved signs, went home, and Trump flipped three court seats and ended Roe.
Bernie in particular has always been great at turning out a crowd, but he’s never been able to turn that into political or legislative victories.
Ok so 4 years from now, when the major complaint has been gathering support only happens during election time…
Right. Now is the right time to start.
But it’s too soon to tell if that effort will accomplish anything, because the effort has to be sustained through 2026 and 2028.
And the people showing up waving signs have to become politically active - not just showing up and going home, but writing their congresspeople and boycotting companies and knocking on doors to get out the vote and so on and so forth. Bernie and AOC can stump all they want. If they don’t inspire people to act it means nothing.
The Democrats need a grassroots movement - as angry and passionate and hopeful as the Tea Party was - not just speeches by celebrity pols. It’s too early to tell if liberal citizen voters will accept their responsibility to build that movement.
Here’s what I’d like someone to explain: suppose we have four (or even eight) years of president AOC.
Everything is going dandy. Palestine is recognized. Student loans are discharged. Maybe we’re even on track to get a public option. Etc. We get everything we want.
It seems like it only takes 1 (ONE) election cycle for Dems / Liberals / Progressives to stay home and be like “naaah, I just don’t feel it this year…Not gonna vote” to undo everything. Dems have had a slim majority in the house for the last 20 years. SC is one seat away from disaster.
We are only in month #2 of Orange Fucks presidency and look at all the damage he’s done. We’re back to square one. Nothing changes. I’m starting to get blackpilled about the whole democratic experiment. Someone give me some perspective please… I just don’t trust the American voter any more. The only consistency is Maga will always show up to vote no matter what piece of shit is written on the ballot. Dems / Liberals / Progressives: we need to move mountains to get any political coalitions or clout to achieve anything.
In that ideal world, the ratchet effect would finally work in the opposite direction. Instead of the left being dragged right, we would drag the right to the left. And honestly, it wouldn’t be as hard as you might think. Think of social security. There’s a fuckton of republicans that hate new social safety nets and food stamps and shit, but you’d have to pry their social security out of their cold, dead hands. I’ve already heard plenty of republicans and even full on trumpers complaining and worrying that trump and elon are going to take away their social security. The reality is, even if they don’t like it during the election cycle, once you give them a social safety net, it’s really hard to take it away from them. So you create a new standard for them, a new bottom bar that the right can’t cross for the majority of voters. In that ideal world, we’d also strengthen education across the country because education is the first defense against fascism. As the next generations are better educated, it will become harder and harder for the right to trick them into voting against their best interests
I like you. This comment gives good for thought. I’m falling asleep but I have some thoughts. Will follow up tomorrow stay tuned
If the DNC wants to continue to exist they need to give up on the idea of being the good conservative party. That’s why their base doesn’t show up. You can only be held hostage for so long before you just give up and let happen what will happen.
If they would actually pass real reform and genuinely try to make the lives of the worst off better, they’d never have to worry about the republicans again.
I agree. They should stop being republican lite. It’s frustrating for sure.
But look at it this way: the Dems passed boring ok policies. Nothing spectacular. ACA? Sure. It’s something. But on one hand we have lame attempts at passing reform and general policies that do a little progress. On the other hand: oligarchs tearing down everything to build a technocratic crypto fascist state. And even that is not enough to get people to vote. So, we can’t get people to vote in general. That’s the issue. We could have Cheguevara bringing the revolution to America or whatever, but these people don’t show up. Obama was charming and bam, Trump undoes everything. Where are the safeguards?
Republicans on the other hand, have the anticrhrist on the ballot and they all pull up to the booth. Every. Time.
If people get what they want they will come voting out in droves.
You’re getting blackpilled because your scope of what liberal democracy is is incredibly limited and almost childish. Student loan forgiveness? Recognizing Palestine? Those are useless carrots dangled in front of you that do not materially change the country or even count as policies.
If you want to lock out authoritarians for another 100 years and have a real democracy you need to think bigger and grow up. Fundamental voting procedures need to be overhauled. The judiciary needs to be completely removed and then reinstated with additional safeguards against partisanship. Return to a gold standard and abolishment of stocks. Yes, the entire stock market. Quite frankly the entire constitution needs an overhaul to a degree where the old one should just be tossed into a fire and the flag changed afterwards to reflect all these changes to the country.
THAT is what is needed. To remove FUNDAMENTAL and ENDEMIC problems that have been plaguing this republic for 200 years now!
But instead of thinking about that, you just prefer some free money in the form of debt forgiveness. And that’s why Trump won and he and his successor will keep winning for the foreseeable future.
You somehow missed my entire point and managed to focus on the least important aspects of my question. The situations I described were hypotheticals reflecting the best possible world.
My entire thesis is all it takes for one election cycle for progressives / leftists / liberals to not bother getting off the couch and everything we work for si setback another 100 years. It will take sooo much time to undo what Elon and Trump have done it just the past two months. I don’t care about the goddamn student loans. My argument is democracy doesnt work, does it?
They are arguing that a real progressive would try to fix democracy. Overturn citizens United. Get money out of politics. Push for an alternative to first past the post. Remove the electoral college. You do those things and fascism becomes much easier to defend against.
Have you ever heard the saying
“the flame of democracy requires vigilance”?
These are all lofty ideals. Overturning citizens united. Getting money out of politics. It seems to me however, as soon as a candidate lacking in charm or popularity shows up, the whole system back tracks because no one wants to vote for a boring candidate.
I hated Kamala. She was the most establishment dem you could get. You’d think a sassy black woman would have some kind of charisma or anything really. She sounded like a corporate android programmed by Hillary herself. Her policies were boring and uninspiring. She failed her messaging so bad. I still voted but I understand why those who didn’t didn’t. But if that’s all it takes to revert the clock a hundred years then it’s over.
We’re fucked.
Americans had a Trump term already. And they collectively - those who voted and those who didn’t said: “sure. Let’s do that again. Why not.”
Democracy is dead.
You have way too much politics in the US, your judges, police chiefs, ad’s should never have been political.
I very much dislike that a person from any country would read your post and push the downvote icon, but I’ve been told to my face that gerrymandering was a legitimate ‘political’ tactic, so I can’t say it surprises me.
Liberals and progressives staying home wouldn’t matter if the democratic party appealed to the working class as a whole instead.
Don’t forgot gerrymandering and the electoral college. The EC didn’t matter this time (barely), but most of the country does want change for the better. Part of the problem is people don’t feel their votes matter because of the EC and another is simply voter disenfranchisement.
We must get rid of gerrymandering and the electoral college. Nothing will ever change until that shit is gone. Until then, rinse and repeat.
voter suppression is the main issue besides gerrymandering, republicans would never have won that many seats, if they dint do this, and heavily propagandized apathy. voter suppression barely occurs red dominated areas. voting machine rigging is almost never addressed either.
Getting rid of the electoral college would be a good first step. It would still be less than 1% of what needs to be done, but a step in the right direction nonetheless.
Replacing the Citizen’s United court decision with actual law would go a really long way towards keeping corporate money out of politics.
You really think before Citizens was overturned we were peachy? Reagan decimated a century of policies in one term long before Citizens was an issue.
No, it’s the voter base. They don’t care. It’s that simple.
The boomers will die eventually, and with them, their antiquated ideas.
The world is now aware billionaires are a huge issue and countries around the world are taking more precautions to prevent what is happening to the USA from happening in their countries.
Religious fascists will always be an issue, but we can combat that with education, taxing churches, and persecuting people like Alex Jones, Joe Rogan, and Elon Musk.
That’s why they all rallied behind Trump-- they know their days are numbered and the people want their fat heads in the guillotines.
You’re banking on a generation of red-pilled fascists to fix the problem? Social progress is not a guarantee when older generations die out.
Your “solutions” rely on the Rule of Law and Separation of Powers, both of which were dissolved after Trump v. United States.
You’re about ten years behind what’s actually happening.
The old boomer’s idea of conservatism has already died. Congratulations, you already got what you asked for. It was replaced by a technocracy. Or neo-fascism. Call it whatever you want, but that replacement is thoroughly supported by young people. Zoomers more than millenials.
Statements like yours incite me quite a bit, because I’ve used to say the same thing. “Boomers will die out soon and then we get to take over”. That was 30 years ago. It got worse, not better.
I hear you, if you think about this:
Technocrats are a group of people.
Boomers are an enormous generational cohort.
A cohort that is really struggling to let go of power and allow their descendants to shape the world.
Most of them were raised to always put their careers first, so that’s all they know how to do-- they don’t know how to just smoke a blunt and chill like the cool boomers do.
Likewise, while I’m undoubtedly one of the cool millennials, the time will come when it will be obvious to me that it is time for us millennials and our antiquated ways to go, and allow the new world to use the resources and the space we will leave behind.
It’s part of the natural cycle of life on this planet.
So it behooves us to do everything we can so that our descendants are mostly sad that we are gone, instead of deeply relieved we’re finally dead.
While you are right I do think that a good number are boomers, there are still young people grasping onto these ideas. I am a millennial and have worked with different people across many age ranges who are very conservative including my age or younger. Unfortunately this hyper conservative movement may not go away anytime soon in my opinion.
But I do hope that people in America and elsewhere like you said remain aware of the billionaire parasites that feed off the people. My hope is that some day the conservative ideals squeeze and overstep with their followers so much that they finally wake up and choose different ideals. I hope it happens soon and we can change the future of the world
Years ago, I read a scientific journal article about how male elephant aggression increased drastically after the older male elephants (bulls) in the herd were killed by poachers and hunters for their big tusks.
The article explained that the bulls provided structure for the younger males by basically slapping them over the back of the head whenever the younger males did something not very cash money.
Not only that, the bulls were also role models for the younger dudes on how to sweet talk the ladies, because after the bulls were killed, the lady elephants were rejecting the younger male elephants because they were huge fucking douches-- even the fucking elephants are dealing with incels.
All it takes is the removal of safety nets in our communities, and their absence means we are all struggling really hard to work, parent, volunteer, teach, and mentor all these children growing up while being aware their whole childhood that the future looks really bleak for them.
I think younger generations are angry and depressed, and that’s coming out as racism, sexism, transphobia, anti-immigrant rhetoric, etc. They are flocking to Joe Rogan because their only friend at school got into Joe Rogan and well, they don’t have other older gentler friends to smack them upside the head with the elephant trunk of wisdom.
Society has failed them, so they want to change it to what they think would work for them.
If we take the time to engage with as many young people as we can, and provide hope and guidance, we can better combat the red pilling.
Many of us do not take the time to coach youth sports, do the big brother/sister program, or volunteer to help at community events for children.
So when these kids grow up, they don’t have a healthy ring of cool adult models to emulate or ask advice from.
I am proud to say I have many friends 10-20 years younger than me, and I have loved watching and helping to guide them all to grow into compassionate and thoughtful adults.
And at least one of them started out as a red pill incel, so you have me to think for turning him to the side of compassion, love, and critical thinking.
You are ALL welcome-- it weren’t easy.
It’s the 1% vs the working class.
Not generation vs generation.
The 1% exist because the boomers voted for Reagan and voted for Trump.
And it’s not that boomers are better off dead-- my mama is a boomer, and I love my mama!
Everyone who knows her does!
My mama is an indigenous woman who lives on a mountain, probably has negative carbon footprint on this planet because she never wants anything but good company and old-ass movies. She is always out there helping strangers, taking stray dogs to the vet to get spayed, picking up trash, planting flowers, etc.
She’s happy.
But even she’s like “I’m ready to peace out, the world’s too complicated for me, most my family is suffering, and all the people I grew up are dead or dying.”
That’s not what very powerful boomers like Trump, Netanyahu, Pelosi, Schumer, Mr. Brain-worm-with-measles, etc. are doing, and there’s a ton of them that will not step down until death takes them.
Hopefully we’ll all be the wiser from this experience, about prioritizing happiness over control.
I love how Trumps gets some of these folks all riled up and by just acting normally.
This is that usual gaslighting rhetoric from the right. Someone reminded of the Sartre quote about anti-semites recently. It’s so applicable to how the right twists facts and makes absurd over-generalizations. It’s the epitome of acting in bad faith.
“Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”
Lol, caring about anything but money and power is so cringe, amirite? Imagine caring about libraries, museums, and people living their final years in dignity. Couldn’t be me.
Jesus, if Trump’s behavior is normal to you, you must have a lot of childhood trauma to unpack. I’m so sorry for whatever you went through. Have you considered therapy?
TBF normal for tmurp is refusing rental applications from people based on race and making unsolicited unwelcome physical advances on women while claiming to be a victim of descrimination.
They don’t like being screwed like you do. What has that man done to make your life better?
I wish you Americans would deal with this crap before I end up getting drafted to defend my country from the orange porcine dementia patient.
Seriously. One of the most conservative old guys at my running club yesterday said, and I quote, “someone needs to kill Donald Trump and Elon Musk.” And I live in Alberta.
We are absolutely done with the US’s bullshit up here guys. Fucking do something. If one more of you cowards tries to tell me you’re going to vote harder in the primaries or some other stupid limp dick excuse, I swear to god man. Our lives and sovereignty are being threatened here. For the love of god do something actually useful for once in your lives.
canada is working on divesting from buying american made items.
Our meat prices locally dropped way down since the tariff bullshit. I’ve been saying we need to get away from tying our food markets to the US for like a decade, nice to see that I was right for once.
Honestly, fuck off. Most of us didn’t want this shit. Stop victim blaming.
Honestly, fuck you. You don’t understand what it is to be threatened with invasion from the greatest military power of all time.
Lol you aren’t getting invaded. Relax.
Then “most of you” should have done something about it.
Fucking exactly.
Except our country did. He won the popular vote and those who stayed home meant they were fine with him winning.
Just don’t comfort these assholes when they finally regret their decision.
Americans hoard guns like crazy and then act like elections are the be all end all of political reform. It’s idiotic and disgusting.
Right wingers hoard guns. I have been saying for a solid fucking decade that if the left isn’t armed we’re helpless. There’s the SRA and JBGC, but a major part of the democratic platform has been “we’re gonna take your guns” since before I was born. I might go out in a blaze of glory if the brownshirts bring war to my doorstep, but I’m not picking a suicidal fight on my own.
ETA: and yes, the Democrats aren’t left wing. But they are the leftmost viable party we have. And they have been anti-gun for decades. Which means they tend to not own guns and they tend to not organize militias.
I swear to god man.
You swear to do what? What are you gonna do about it if we don’t get rid of Trump? If we don’t engage in large-scale riots and die so Canadians are safe? How about YOU do something? The best way to deal with an aggressive neighbor (geopolitically speaking) is invading them to enact regime change or just genocide the people there. Go on. Do it. Put your money where your mouth is and start walking across that border with a weapon in your hand. Once you win you can impose whatever government you want here.
That’s the problem with “Someone should kill Trump and Elon Musk”. The “Someone” part, which translates to “anybody but me I just want to continue being lazy and comfortable”.
I’m glad you somehow still managed to blame people in OTHER COUNTRIES for YOUR mistake.
How the Fuck is an Albertan supposed to slice YOUR countries problems!? Lmfao. YOU do something! YOURE the American
You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after every other option has been exhausted first.
Churchill, wasn’t it?
I hear you, brother. I’m in Alberta too, but never been interested in guns; I’m waiting for my PAL to be approved as we speak. My parents and in-laws are terrified and upset about their grandkids potential futures. I’m talking to them daily to try to calm them down. We’re angry all the time, and now filling with anxiety about the upcoming election, because we all see the lies and bullshit tied to money, power, and ignorance starting…
Good luck, it’s been 280 days since I put in for my renewal and it’s still apparently only passes the initial review. Called about 4 times now, no help at all. Maybe the AB CFO will be a bit better for time.
A lot of my Albertan coworkers are still reciting the conservative propaganda and sound bites. There really is no hope for them as they are willingly obtuse…
I’ve got a friend in Quebec that told me that they’d “wish Trump would hurry up already and make Canada the 51st state.” I also know a Canadian trucker that joined the line during that trucker protest over…whatever it was they thought they were protesting.
I was in Düsseldorf recently and met a UK resident (fluent in German) who was nuts for Musk.
It’s a problem that has spread to many other countries. In fact, I’d argue that right wing populism is all part of the same swing and it’s only the most cartoonishly evil in America.
Yeah I mean there’s lots of people who are still just chronically stupid.
What do you suggest Americans do? Say someone is a working class American who didn’t vote for Trump. They can barely make ends meet and have no power or political sway. What does that person do? I’m not trying to be funny, I’m simply interested in your take and perspective as a non-American.
What do you suggest Americans do?
You’d know more than someone outside of the US.
we are less free to say it than someone outside of the US
I saw something recently that was talking about how individualism has led us to this situation. Everyone is thinking what they can do. We lost our collectivist spirit. We don’t think about what we can do.
An individual has essentially no power. A group does. We need to get better at organizing. This is made hard because we are so separated from each other, driving individually to work, then back home, largely to houses where you don’t interact with anyone else. We have basically no third places anymore where you’d typically organize. This situation was designed, and it’s going to be hard to get out of, but we need to get better at forming groups and organizing.
Great point. I’d argue that an extension of individualism is consumption.
What was the majority positive response to Luigi? Consumption.
People asked where to buy stickers and T-shirts. T-shirts.
This situation was designed, and it’s going to be hard to get out of, but we need to get better at forming groups and organizing.
Nothing can be fixed until it’s understood to be a problem, and AOC from her stump speeches and emails seems to at least recognize the problem you’re pointing that American systems are essentially “massively scaled up isolation from others”.
Rugged individualism has failed us. It’s going to take a reclamation of collectivism to fix our problems.
They are powerless if everyone stops giving them power
The country is nothing without its workers
Of 10-20% of the population actively protested and actively tried to halt any functioning of society, you’d be surprised at how much you could get done. A that large mass of people is absolutely hell to control and subdue, and they certainly cannot arrest even a significant fraction of them. If the threat of protests of that scale were real every time they tried some fuckery, they would give in very quickly
The problem is that almost everyone thinks like you say, “what am I to do? I’m powerless”, and give up before even trying
I’d love leaderless movements to have a better track record than they do, but the reality is that I think they fail much more often than they succeed in this country.
People can’t just quit their jobs and occupy wall street forever.
I am aware it’s difficult, but my point was that you aren’t powerless
As an unconnected individual with a middling net worth, you are powerless in this system. Whole movements of people are powerless. The only way this could possibly work is with the numbers and probably a leader organizing it.
And while we’re at it, why don’t people in China have the freedom to speak out against their government and not have censorship? Maybe if they all just got together in a big public square and really protested, I bet that would end really well.
China never really had functioning democracy to begin with, so this comparison doesn’t really apply. The point is to rise up before it gets as bad as in China.
Also thought of mentioning Hong Kong. Might be an even better example actually.
I mean, if they all did it, it absolutely would make shit happen
The whole issue stems from most people wanting to just keep their heads down
(The parent commenter was making a Tiananmen Square Massacre reference.)
I am aware
People in numbers have ALL the power. I know Americans have been trained for defeatism, but look at what protest, resistance, and strikes can do overseas.
If you have any spare time, even half an hour here or there, go to protests. Connect with like-minded folks.
If it comes down to that then I’m sure me and some of my fellow Americans will rebel and put the 2nd amendment to the test.
Face it. Your blaming dirt farming peasants that John the bastard is going to crusade your lands.
There’s literally nothing we can do about it besides die as well in most cases.
So instead of fighting now you’re just going to allow yourself to get drafted later? How is that in any way preferable
The British empire was brought to its knees by normal patriots to form the country you’re making excuses not to defend. Coward.
That is such a gross and fundamental misunderstanding of the Revolutionary War it’s almost comical. Probably most important to note is that the Revolution was bankrolled by U.S. oligarchs, and we received a lot of help.
That sounds like Russian propaganda.
While not that untrue, it’s a pretty bleak interpretation of history.
You could argue the founding fathers were oligarchs but remember… they toppled a monarchy. Doesn’t get more autocratic than that.
You could also imagine some “oligarchs” could see that they benefit from a more equal society.
At the end of the day, the founding fathers clearly support rebellion. Say what you will about them but they were not hypocrites. From the Declaration of Independence:
“That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it”
Rebellion is your duty.
Say what you will about them but they were not hypocrites
Sorry, you’re saying the people who were committed to making a Land of the Free that excluded blacks and women weren’t hypocrites? The Founding Fathers are some of the biggest fucking hypocrites of all time.
The only thing they hated is that they couldn’t be the British aristocracy. They absolutely were oligarchs and the vast, vast majority did not due it out of noble reasons. They did it because they wanted more profits.
The Founding Fathers are some of the biggest fucking hypocrites of all time.
Slavery abolitionist and Founding Father Thomas Paine would agree with you. He literally called Washington a hypocrite (and incompetent) in an open letter.
One of the few “Founding Fathers” that I tend to like.
Land of the Free that excluded blacks and women
As well as the indigenous and non-landowners.
U.S. oligarchs HATE competition. They conned the rubes of 1776 to fight the British monarchy so they could have a monopoly on graft in the colonies, the U.S. finally got pulled kicking and screaming into WW1 and WW2 because they hated the competition from Germany et al, and not out of any love for Europe. The support for Hitler among the U.S. ruling class was high and well documented, including Prescott Bush.
Okay sure. Just ignore the main point I was making. Sounds like a thing a coward would do. Have fun living under tyranny.
Your point is based on fundamentally flawed information. You can make the argument that Americans should engage in revolution! But I would point the example towards the great work of unions during the Industrial Revolution, rather than pointing to one of the many times the U.S. rose up to blindly support their oligarchs.
I’m not saying they didn’t have help. I’m saying you have to start it yourselves! No one is going to swoop in and save you. YOU have to do it! Only then will you start getting others to join.
If you tell yourself you’re powerless, then you are. You sit there doing nothing while making excuses for it.
YOU ARE NOT POWERLESS. Together you are strong. Get up and act like it.
I know it sounds fun to believe that friendship or togetherness can topple a nation that’s willing to drone strike its own citizens, but the truth is that the game is so heavily rigged in the U.S. that we have a lot of needs. We need guns, we need intelligence, and we need enough peer to peer outreach to actually organize. Without third-party assistance, it’s pretty hard to go beyond the local protesting we’ve already been doing.
Everyone likes to fantasize about Jan 6th without realizing there were big financial groups working on outreach, organization, and supporting travel to the capital to make that happen. There is no money for the left in the U.S. You really want to yell at us, at least donate to organizations like Indivisible first.
Hey man, whatever you need to tell yourself to feel good about doing nothing.
American here. Our boys are nearly draft age. This shit is terrifying.
So what are you going to do about it? Because up here right now I personally am having to do shit like teach my parents and wife how to shoot guns, having to hoard canned goods and encourage others to do the same, having to comfort my elderly grandmother who is scared as shit about this and letting her know I have plans to protect her in the event of an American invasion. Because of your country. And I’m really fucking angry about it.
Quit bitching and do something about it. Do more.
I’m a trans woman living in Texas. How do you think I feel? No one’s having a good time right now, buddy. I fully anticipate that I will be dead or in a concentration camp within one or two years because, as of right now, I have no way to escape and I’m still working on trying to find groups to organize with.
As far as I’m concerned, my days are numbered.
I have no future.
At least there’s a chance that they’ll get distracted by some shiny new thing and won’t invade Canada.
No one’s having a good time right now.
I’m also Canadian and I am also mad. I’m buying a gun and learning to shoot it. I’m working on custom fpv drones in my free time. I’m using my chemistry degree to com up with potential explosives. This is not me. I wanted to have a life heavy involved in tech l, but I can’t do that anymore.
So many children have been sacrificed for their second amendment rights and now just silence. Absolutely disgusting.
The destruction of teslas is pretty much the Boston tea party part 2 electric boogaloo. Seems like most people would let the British fuck them up forever if they were alive back then.
Seriously. Americans are all up about their fucking gun rights to prevent government tyranny and look at what’s happening.
Preach brother (or sister). I’m 100% with you.
On the bright side, they’ve got lots of guns and ammo for us to ‘liberate’ from them if they ever decide to invade us… I’m planning on making Che Guevara proud, lol
From here the outside ot really feels that you need to start another party now. Like nice rally and all of that but the dnc has been screwing you over every fuckin time.
Edit: Or a representative parliament system? That winner takes all shit shouldn’t be…Personally, I would like a Mixed Member Proportional system, but yeah, anything would be better than what we have now. James Madison is rolling in his grave. He literally wrote in Federalist Paper No. 10 that the republican principal is to reduce factiontionalism, not enable it.
That is because both GOP and DEM are corporatist parties. They will not cater to working class people because those people aren’t the ones throwing the most money at them. Left wing populism is nothing more than a tankie wet dream since citizens united.
Or a representative parliament system?
Oh ok we’ll get right on that
Edit: it just doesn’t really help that these discussions always devolve into comments about “we have to get rid of FPTP” and all that. Yeah, no shit. There’s zero chance of that happening in this country at this time. Not without a complete breakdown of the country.
There’s zero chance of that happening in this country at this time.
Not without a complete breakdown of the country.
Well… You are onto that it seems… So get the hopium?
Well, OK then.
Shit is going to absolutely fucking suck for everyone then. Not just here. But sure, let’s go.
First past the post ensures that any party that tries to splinter off dooms both themselves and the party from which they splintered.
What needs to happen is the democrats need to get tea partied.
At this point there’s no risk since the Democrats can’t win anyway. Might as well deal with a couple split elections while the transition happens because Republicans win even if you don’t
Don’t splinter then. Amputate.
Different word, same effect
Splinter implies a small breakaway group.
Amputate implies removing a part of the body that is harmful.
Who is really in power in the Democrats and how did they get there?
Unless you get the same size voting base as Republicans, it still leads to a corpse.
You have just described how voting works.
In the US, yes. In other countries (also Alaska and Maine somewhat), the voting system (ranked choice voting, proportional representation, etc) allows for many smaller parties to form. Because no one ends up with 50+% of the vote, these groups have to come together to get things done. With first past the post (which is winner take all, which is heinously stupid), small parties cannot meaningfully form because they cannot possibly get enough votes to get into office.
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The real solution is to change the party in the primaries.
As flawed as the DNC is, starting a new party will split the non-Republican vote and guarantee the GOP sweeps.
“Change the system!” Yeah - the last Constitutional ammendment that was ratified was in 1992 and had been introduced in the Washington administration.
I’ve heard this argument for 30+ years. How long do I wait for it to be true?
In 2000, if just 1% of the people who voted for Nader in Florida had voted for Gore instead of throwing away their vote on a third-party, we never would have had Bush as President.
Can’t you change how the delegate election works at least at a state level?
Yes. The best thing we can actually hope for at thCompact. regarding national elections is the national popular vote Interstate compact.
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Buddy we don’t even have elections anymore. The voting system is no longer a relevant target.
But how else will they keep sheepdogging everyone to vote for the billionaires?
Starting a new party just guarantees Republicans win in landslides.
We need to do to the Democrats, what maga did to Republicans. Primary the old fuckers with young progressive candidates.
Just like how the Tea Party completely destroyed Republicans OH WAIT that’s not what happened at all. Republicans moved to the right to stay relevant and here we are.
A new popular party will force Democrats to either move to the left or become irrelevant. It’s exactly what we need.
AOC 2028
AOC 2025
Fr let’s go. We cant wait until 2028. AOC president and Bernie vice president (or something like that)? Would be a dream come true…
Ehh Bernie is getting too old. He needs to clone himself.
I agree. That’s why I was thinking vice, but 100% we need so many more people like him 😭
I wish there were more Bernies.
Drop the quotation marks. They’re quite literally screwing us over.
Please flip the bird to the Democrats and run for president
This is the duo we need
They really need to start their own party. The dems are dead.
We need more of this. Mad respect to ACO and Bernie for standing with us and telling truth about this administration.
ok that’s cool and all but what are they actually doing?
They’ve clearly demonstrated they have enough influence to draw a crowd. Plenty of activists dream of that kind of audience. Hopefully they did more than just state the obvious… mobilize them towards non-electoral action!
Rallying and engaging people in these states is absolutely crucial to any further strategy. There is nothing they can truly do to fight without tons of popular support. They are trying to reach some of the 90 million people who didn’t care enough to vote last year, to ask them to start caring.
It’s honestly the very best thing they can use their platform to do right now.
There is nothing they can truly do to fight without tons of popular support.
That’s true, absolutely, but also there’s only so much hype can do without actions alongside to make people feel empowered. Plenty of people go to protests, then realize they’ve just stood around chanting and feel like nothing was accomplished, especially after a few times in a row. So while rallying and gaining popularity is necessary, it’s not sufficient.
On the other hand, using those crowds to accomplish actions, even minor and safe, shows to participants that this is a group and a strategy that can accomplish things.
What would you suggest they do?
I would suggest they survey their target audience (when they’re in Arizona, ask Arizonans), see what they need the Dems to help with, and then see if they can use their power to help with it.
I know that’s vague, but one of the worst things I could do is arrogantly pretend I know the most important struggles of local working people. Sure, I could just guess, and some of those guesses may be right - perhaps establishing community aid organizations to reduce the impact of financial strain, creating or supporting rent/tenancy unions to help address housing crises, and labor struggles like union industrial action efforts to create better working conditions and reduce injury and death in the workplace, throwing their weight behind existing protests. But if something else is more important to a region (perhaps a local group able to solve a local problem is underfunded or needs an expert to assist), and a political party recognizes and addresses it, that is empowering to the citizens and helps build enthusiastic support for the party, rather than just seeing them as ineffective distant rich people.
The thing is, they DO already know the struggles of the working people. Of course they do surveys, data analysis.
The problem is that people don’t believe them. Their brainwashing forces them to automatically reject our message, even though our policies poll well across the board – when they are divorced from the messenger. Attach the name AOC to the idea universal basic income, suddenly it’s communism.
The outreach they are doing is some of the most important work we can do right now. The middle class must become convinced that these people are in fact committed to their well-being before they can be mobilized by them.
When AOC/Bernie have an “army”, like Trump does – people who will trust and believe them enough to show up when and where they ask them to, to fight for what we all believe in – THEN they can start taking very direct and meaningful action.
Think about what we are up against – money, law, and military. The only way we push through all that is with huge populist support.
Why is this news to anyone? He has been screwing over working class people since his casino days. His great business plan was “don’t pay any contractors until they sue me in court”.
What a surprise he is doing the same now starting with government employees.
