Worth it for Canada, yes. It’s cost the US trillions of dollars and distracted Trump from attacking us. They no longer have a strong position in CUSMA negotiations as their economy is in shambles.
For Americans it’s a terrible terrible thing, but Canada will be just fine.
We must bear in mind that this was said by a pious and devout Roman Catholic about a Muslim country.
The Middle East is not just about Jewish vs Muslims. The entire Crusades were about Roman Catholics vs the Muslims as well. It just gets obfuscated by the ‘Jewish/Israeli/Palestinian’ thing and the Catholics get a ‘Get Out Of Jail Free’ card.
The ‘Canadian Dimension’ is a propaganda outlet frequently conveying pro-China and anti-Western - including anti-Canada - narratives.
I don’t support the war in Iran, but this is an unreliable, pro-authoritarian propaganda organization with a strong selection bias in both topics and narratives.
Its also an inaccurate oversimplification of what Carney actually said
pro-China
Weird how a very vocal population of Lemmy and Reddit will shout “China is good now!” When I mention that they are actively and openly trying to manipulate Canadian politics. And how importing boatloads of Chinese developed tech is like putting a spy in every home and business network.
Diplomacy is the art of saying “nice doggy” until you can find a rock — Will Rogers
Except he doesn’t seem to really want to commit to that. He is still making massive deals with US corporations and sharing massive data with the US, not to mention pushing through massive surveillance bills that only will benefit them.
“Nice doggy — go ahead and tear apart that stranger, it’s totally worth it. Would you like to buy some rocks?”
When Trump first attacked Iran Carney practically ran to the nearest microphone to tell us all how he thought it was just dandy. The guy has repeatedly expressed support for the war because that’s how he feels.
He’s been consistent about not talking about the world how people want it to be, but how it actually is.
Iran has a nuclear program. If Iran builds a nuke it would be very bad. They also support a lot of terrorism. Terrorism is bad.
If you strip away all of the ideological bullshit, the vibes about who’s a good guy and who’s a bad guy, all of the rationalizations about who’s historically justified in attacking who, what you’re left with is Iran being weakened means less terrorism, less terrorism means less war. It’s imperative that they are prevented from building nuclear weapons since that represents the potential for millions of people getting killed.
“The way I see the world is the truth. The way others see it is wrong. We must do things my way because what I say is true and what they say is wrong.”
People with any critical thinking dismiss that kind of bs and evaluate for themselves. It is meaningless, empty rhetoric.
The truth isn’t something you get from “evaluating” a bunch of “alt-media” websites. That’s just doing the “I did my own research on the internet”.
Nuclear physics is science. Iran’s uranium purification project is not for civilian use, it’s a nuclear weapons program. Denying this is like denying the world is flat because you choose to ignore science because you want to go along with your political allies.
The truth isn’t convenient, it’s not always going to conform to what your politcal group says.
“We take the world as it is, not as we wish it to be” is a totally empty slogan. Who do you think isn’t dealing with the world as they think it is? You think people who disagree are all just going around in willful fantasy? No. Of course not. Everybody is dealing with the world as they think it is. Reasonable people disagree on how the world is. The slogan tries to make an authoritative claim on having the only true worldview, which may sound great to people who don’t think critically for even a second about it, or who simply share his biases about how the world is, but it’s no more material than saying “We make sensible choices, not insane choices.”
So, the only thing your initial comment and your subsequent reply really indicate is that you haven’t actually thought about what that rhetoric means at all and you’re just leaning into confirmation bias on your worldview because it feels nice to invalidate other worldviews as false while confirming your own as the one true way of seeing the world. Sorry, that’s just uncritically accepting authority based on an empty feel good slogan. It’s a stupid thing to do and to advocate for.
Of course, you could consider how Iran was previously subject to a nuclear agreement that they abided by, had not attempted to build nuclear weapons, had a fatwa against building nuclear weapons, repeatedly attempted to sign deals that would have included prevention of them building nuclear weapons, and even after facing existential threat have still not built nuclear weapons despite strong expert arguments that they could if they wanted to.
You want to condescendingly dismiss other people’s viewpoints as just uneducated “alt-media” “I did my own research” nonsense, and yet you’re not even demonstrating the capacity to see through the most basic of political rhetoric and are swallowing it down like it’s your gospel.
“We take the world as it is, not as we wish it to be” is a totally empty slogan. Who do you think isn’t dealing with the world as they think it is? You think people who disagree are all just going around in willful fantasy?
People that choose to believe that Iran doesn’t have a nuclear weapons program just because they hate Israel and will believe anything that anyone that opposes Israel says. It’s insane really… if they had no nuclear weapons program, why would they be opposed to the IAEA doing inspections?
Hard not to be condescending when talking to people that hang on to willful ignorance in the face of science and basic logic. I’ve had a lot of discussions with various groups, this is the same as the “plandemic” crowd. What do you say to people that refuse to learn science, have huge gaps in their logic, and default to “alternative facts” from dodgy websites whenever discussing anything?
The irony in the depth of your lack of intellectual self-awareness is something to behold.
Iran does not want nuclear weapons. If they do end up with a nuke it is entirely due to the threat it faces from Israel.
This is Trumpian logic. We don’t do X, but if we do X it’s because of our enemies.
Stated intentions are meaningless, because everyone is lying. The fact that they are purifying uranium is what matters, not what they say.
They have made it clear they do not want weapons. You NEED purified and enriched uranium (to a point) for fuel grade stuff, and there has not been the slightest shred of evidence that they ate going further than that AND no evidence whatsoever of them doing all the other shit you need for a nuclear weapon. You need a lot more than enriched uranium to make a bomb or missile warhead, even if they were going that far.
The states purpose of this is that after 1979 Israel wanted Iran to be a failed stated like they did to Iraq and Syria.
They have made it clear they do not want weapons.
Yes they’ve SAID that, but do you make it a habit to believe what authoritarians say?
You NEED purified and enriched uranium (to a point) for fuel grade stuff,
No civilian reactor needs uranium purified to more than 5%. They’ve purified uranium to 60%. Also the uranium they import from Russia is already purified to the level needed by their one civilian nuclear reactor. Any uranium purification happening in Iran is for a nuclear weapons program.
I hate Trump and Netanyahu too, but if they say the sky is blue, do you automatically have to agree with someone that says the sky is green?
The states purpose of this is that after 1979 Israel wanted Iran to be a failed stated like they did to Iraq and Syria.
Yeah no shit. Just as Iran wants Israel to be a failed state. That’s how shit works with adversaries.
Wow. What a great metaphor.
Would be nice if it was true.
It’s 100% worth it for Trump.
It worked as a distraction from the charges of child rape and trafficking against him.
He lost nothing. Only all of us lost. We don’t matter to him.
Now that Starmer is done Carney is gunning for most disappointing head of state.
Lots of people are still glazing him for that one speech where he suggested Canada should be more like the USA.
Neither Starmer nor Carney are heads of state. Look to King Charles if you can’t stomach the details of how things work.
Must intelligent people really play this game of Make Believe with y’all? I mean honestly? Who’s buying it?
Lol, okay. Sure buddy.
Though if you want to talk about that sausage fingered pedophile go right ahead.
I’m ready to try NDP at the federal level.
We need proportional representation for this to work. The Conservatives are so ghoulish that people vote Liberal as a safety. If the left splits the vote, the Conservatives get a majority government with only 40% of the vote.
The moment people have a viable alternatives to liberals they will flock to them. The libs have been a neoliberal fascist enabling party for a long time.
I doubt it, personally, but even if you’re right, Single Transferable Vote would be a much better system to allow people to vote for alternative parties with similar ideals instead of feeling compelled to vote strategically.
FPTP is one of the biggest problems in Canada, and it’s upstream of just about every other issue of significance.
Choice 1: PM flatters trump at zero cost to anyone anywhere.
Choice 2: PM picks a fight with trump with zero gain to anyone anywhere.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Decisions decisions decisions.
Choice 3: Carney shuts the fuck up and doesn’t look like a stupid asshole. That would have been a good one. The guy absolutely didn’t have to fall over himself to support this dumbass war, multiple times.
That is an option, but we are still in the midst of a trade war with the US, who remains out largest trading partner.
If Carney can offer platitudes that ultimately cost nothing to get some goodwill with the US that might actually help Canadians, then why the fuck not?
Ultimately, Trump (and maybe some armchair policy experts) is the only person dumb enough to not see through this ploy. It’s not going to affect his position in any negative way, and has a small chance to affect it positively.
I disagree with Carney on almost all of his real policy decisions, but the man knows how to play politics, and I’d much rather he be in office than PP.
Does this cost us nothing? I thought we were trying to pivot away from the US. How does it make us look to the rest of the world when our leadership practically sprints to support the US in violating international law?
Does this cost us nothing?
Yes.
I thought we were trying to pivot away from the US.
This is a welcome change, but it’s a slow process. I don’t see why we need to suffer unnecessarily when all you need to do to keep things stable during a massive shift like this is some disingenuous compliments.
How does it make us look to the rest of the world when our leadership practically sprints to support the US in violating international law?
It makes us look like we are trying to calm down the crackhead with a knife by calmly agreeing with them.
They do NOT cost us nothing. Here’s a few ways it costs Canada:
- it justifies illegal warfare and disinhibits military adventurism
- it undermines international law and international institutions
- it vindicates extremist and arbitrary militarism as somehow effective
- it destroys Canada’s credibility and narrows our capacity to intervene in the international stage
- internally it alienates and marginalizes part of our own population
- it entrenches conspiratorial thinking and distrust in our democratic institutions
And I’m not even getting into the ways it costs us because it’s a disgusting and just plain fucking wrong to applaud this completely pointless war that rained down death and suffering to countless innocents, both directly and indirectly.
And all that for what? For sucking Trump’s dick which he’s already forgotten anyway? Give me a break.
I wish I could upvote you twice.
Well put, full agree.
Still think Carney is going an overall decent job, and he’s 1,000,000,000,000x better than the conservatives getting in… but this is a big miss.
disinhibits military adventurism
Right… I can see the scene now “Well, I wasn’t sure about going to war but then I remembered the disastrous Iran war and how Canada’s Prime Minister said nice things about it so away we go!”
What a silly thing to say. Of course the Canadian prime minister doesn’t shape reality with his words. But his words matter. When Carney stood up in Davos the world listened. It is the same leader, a leader of a G7 nation, that says this. Other leaders are listening, a discourse is taking form.
Yeah, I disagree. I think it makes us look like spineless weasels who can’t be relied upon if the US makes any demands of us.
Thankfully, no reasonable adult with any understanding of international relationships would feel the same.
edit: missed words
Right, reasonable adults are instead doing their best to look like a vassal state.
Yeah, I mean I don’t really like Carney or his policies, and I hate Trump even more, but this is clearly the only logical approach to dealing with Trump at the moment. Talk is cheap (something Carney clearly understands because he uses talk very cheaply all the time), and Trump loves flattery, and he hates being criticized, and he will irrationally lash out at anyone who does. He’s proven that so many times, there’s no benefit to aggravating him and giving him a target to fixate on, just let him flail around aimlessly and try to dodge his aimlessly swinging fists.
I’m getting really tired of listening to or wasting almost any attention whatsoever on what people say anymore, because it’s all fucking lies anyway. I’ve started carefully watching what people do instead, and while I have some scathing criticisms of things Carney has done and is doing, the things he’s doing also very clearly don’t benefit Trump. Trying to make him out to be some Trump-friendly-crony is disingenuous and inaccurate. He’s dangerous in his own way, but he’s no ally to Trump and the things he’s doing to distance the Canadian economy from the US and build lasting international partnerships that are going to define Canada for generations? That’s significant stuff.
The frequent praise he offers to Trump is always empty, meaningless words with no real weight behind them and certainly no actions. Carney knows that, and anyone paying attention should know that. Trump is the only one who evidently doesn’t know that, but it’s also possible he just doesn’t care. He’s more interested in appearances anyway, and the appearance of having Canada appear to support him is meaningful to him even if it’s meaningless in actual fact.
Carney has made it clear he is a committed imperialist maybe stop excusing him?
How about just tell it like it is and gain influence with the countries that matter? The USA is making itself irrelevant, and the people within the USA who do matter are not impressed with their own performance as of late either.
How about just tell it like it is and gain influence with the countries that matter?
The entire rest of the world combined, is where less than 30% of our exports go. For literally millions and millions of Canadian families, the USA is insanely relevant.
Yeah I don’t like him but Diplomacy with the Mad King bordering our middle power land needs to be considered too.
Meanwhile, every grocery corporation across Canada, that already had a huge windfall from the COVID pandemic by artificially growing prices, are doing it again thanks to this war and the energy crisis it created, as if we weren’t being gouged enough already. But Mr. World Banker over here thinks it’s fucking worth it?
Fuck him and the horse he fucking rode in on. Fucking rich elite ass hole.
Can people stop excusing Carney’s noted imperialism and internal oppression and hostility to first nations and environmentalists as “5-d chess” its rather disgusting that’s what this thread is.
Obama’s Stuxnet cyberattack destroyed 1000 uranium enrichment centrifuges in Iran at a cost of $1-2 billion (exact cost still classified).
Trump’s military action destroyed about 20x that number, but at 150x to 300x the cost. Such beautiful deals. Unbelievable deals. But Stuxnet didn’t have the added benefit of distracting the public from the Epstein files, so there’s that.
I mean…it was pretty worth it to reduce the effect of the U.S. on the global economy.
As an Iranian I’m devastated that they killed so many people and bombed cultural sites. I’m mad that they destroyed infrastructure. I’m frustrated that their actions strengthened the religious right.
But I’m weirdly proud that their empire came to Iran to die. I’m proud that Iran just flat out refused to sell out to capital, and had made their homework.
Oh don’t get me wrong, the destruction is terrible. The deaths are terrible. The cultural sites are incredibly sad. But this could be like the death of the Ottoman empire, the Roman empire, the Qing dynasty, etc.
All of this being led by Israel for decades of course, fomenting hatred of the Iranian people and anyone not Israeli (even Jews that spoke out against Israel). Of course Iran had time to prepare and make sure that they made the war count.
I’m proud that Iran just flat out refused to sell out to capital
They’re getting $300B from this deal. How much of that is going to get to the Iranian people, and how much will the IRGC just keep for themselves?
First of all, the IRGC is not the government of Iran. The IRGC is Iran’s second army. It gets hyped up in Western media for propaganda purposes.
However, the IRGC does have construction companies tied to it that likely will get a lot of the reconstruction contracts. I don’t think that’s what you’re insinuating, though.
I might clarify that “selling out to capital” is not the same as getting money. Capital is the ruling class that wants to privatize the national wealth of all countries, and Iran is a major pain in their ass.
Carney is a fucking clown.
He gave a nice, anti-socialist and anti-labor union speech at Davos, but then immediately turned back on it and went to business as usual. For all of his talk about wanting to break Canada from the US, his attempts are haphazard and he is still committed to making massive deals with US corporations at the expense of Canadians.
Canadians need to stop thinking of politics in terms of a binary system, it really doesn’t help that we never got the ranked voting we wanted from Trudeau. But I’m sick of seeing people get annoyed with Liberals and turn to Conservatives, it gets from bad to worse because as a country we can’t think outside of those boxes.
I know I’m placing to the choir on this site but it gets so fucking frustrating.
He’s wrong. Period.
This was the single biggest US foreign policy blunder I’ve ever witnessed. The fact Trumps own country isn’t tearing him apart right now is a testament to his cult like grip on the GOP.
From the perspective of someone who’s leading a country that’s around number 3 or so on Trump’s “invade and annex” list, having America lose a war against Iran in an expensive and humiliating manner is very much worth it.
