Didn’t Seth Mcfarlane make two gay Klingons based on lore?
Recently I’ve been considering learning about Warhammer 40k. I think the deep lore is cool and space marines are a neat concept. But apparently there’s this big issue about whether or not women can serve as space marines.
So I briefly looked into it and whether or not the issue is sexism based or lore based, and it seems to be somewhere in the middle, but definitely meta perpetuated by casual sexism. It feels very much like this comic.
Also feels like seeing an interesting box, looking in excitedly, realizing what’s inside and having my enthusiasm sucked out of the airlock, and just… Letting the box lid close and then walk away.
While there are toxic elements of the fandom and weird sexists who take things way too seriously, Warhammer 40K is the dog’s bollocks. Fuck anyone who wants to cry about lore accurate bullshit, the whole point of the setting is you get to make your own lore for your army and nobody gets to tell you if it’s right or wrong, your army is yours to do with as you please. GW has even made posts and statements specifically telling the chuds that they are wrong and to fuck off. My chapter takes all who can prove themselves worthy of having the blood of Sanguinius coursing through their veins and are willing to bear the mantle of The Exploding Suns (suns… suns… suns…) to join them on their epic and calculated journey through a time loop to stop reality from splitting into a thousand pieces by an unseen warp manifested entity shuffling the variables at every beginning and every end, as Chapter Master Astraeus Aqua Forta and his benevolent warp born AI, the only conscious entity to hold the memory and knowledge of surviving intact through every loop, The All-Mother, lead The Exploding Suns across time tainted by time over and over again, falling from the warp onto the deserts of Baal, telling a tale to Dante which he had already seen as visions from the warp, finding and rebuilding the chapter and recruiting his child self to be sent back through the warp to continue the mission, confronting the startling revelation of memories robbed from him during his time in the sarcophagus, and fighting his own desire to end his suffering and struggle before it can start, but at what cost? Could it even be undone? By being in that moment has he already made the choice of damning himself to endless duty? Is it worth the price of all of reality… Hoping to find an end, or stopping one from coming for as long as they can, will the endless turns of deciphering and unraveling the seemingly unending threads of time and destiny weave a tapestry of hope, a future beyond this endless past, or are they forever to stand stalwart against what would be the last deluge of destruction the universe will ever witness? Are they merely souls damned to die again and again in a forever hell known as purpose?
While they are stuck in a loop experiencing endless time time and time again, all-mother fuckers ain’t got no time for any Emperor damned misogynists or incels. My army is made up of men, women, trans folks, non-binary folks, and whoever doesn’t die in the sarcophagus, really. They will even work with xenos, they’re not heritics, but their mission is bigger than the Imperium, and perhaps even The Emperor. If anyone wants to fight about it they’ll just throw an exterminatus at the fuckers or have Dante tell them to mind their own fucking business and cut all their dicks off if that isn’t something they already do to themselves, 40K is weird like that.
The lore in 40k only exists to get people to buy little plastic soldiers. People read about their plastic soldiers in the lore and they want to go buy them.
GW can and will change lore in order to generate a profit.
And yes the 40k lore can be really interesting.
Very, very, iirc, but likely one of the reasons women in 40k aren’t space marines is that they are genetically enhanced, as well as have multiple organs implanted. I would assume the whole gene splicing piece is probably the hangup.
Again iirc, they are pseudoclones of their primarchs who are pseudoclones of the big E.
I would assume a trans woman could be a space marine then? They probably would never know they were trans though, the life of males that eventually become space marines aren’t exactly ones with enough space for that kinda introspection just a constant struggle to survive in some of the most hellish places in the Imperium.
There are also the Adapteus Sororitas, plenty of women in the Imperial Guard, and honestly brutally bad ass women all over the 40k universe.
As just a casual observer, I’ve always understood that the space marines’ gender is space marine.
What about the gene splicing is inherently for “male” only? Because we’re getting into that sexist ignorance territory pretty immediately.
If you say "there has to be a Y chromosome, that is, outrageously silly and makes very little sense. But even if so, there are plenty of men who don’t have a Y chromosome and plenty of women who don’t.
If you say they become a clone of the emperor’s clones, it’s pretty easy to have a cross sex clone. It’s kind of how real life offspring take on genes from their parents and all kinds of outcomes occur, and offspring are still very much basically clones with minor mutations of their parents, with variations. Like if you said they were EXACT clones, like in Star wars, then sure. But they really aren’t, to my limited knowledge.
This just really feels like there not being enough representation in the same way in the 80s how “he” was the default pronoun for a subject. But a lot of people are like NUH UHH THAT MEANS THERE WERE ONLY WHITE MEN AND NO FEMALE AUTHORITY FIGURES which is insane. Like, imagine believing skin color in the vast universe meant anything. Or like throughout the countless planets and solar systems that only XY men of scandanavian descent that lived in similar UV and dietary and other stressor ecosystems were the strongest. Like, if anything, it would be people who settled and evolved in the harshest, and most competitive environments and ecosystems, not warm weather tall people who recently migrated to become pale and unhealthy but then became well fed.
It’s far more likely that to become a Space Marine, it’s not limited to any specific demographic, and it’s the best that whatever planet puts forth. And likely it’s like some other variation of brown skin, post-human evolution, a la every earth-human demographic breeding together and then 40,000 years later looking nothing like us.
Also, the battle sisters are about as token as an all black army. It’s fucked up.
It’s honestly likely similar to the custodes and just… Burly massive people who probably don’t even have any sort of genitals anymore because that doesn’t matter. Like imagine 40,000 years of breeding humans with og-batman bane levels of steroids. Like it just doesn’t matter anymore at that point.
If the existence of a gay klingon is the worst day of your life, I can’t even begin to explain how good you must have it.
Klingons should be like ancient earth warriors.
Totally gay
The Romans only considered it gay if you were a bottom. Romane eunt domus
That’s why they fucked little boys.
Any group that idolizes something so much is definitely going to have sexual desires around it too.
Did we ever see Gowron kiss a girl or talk about his wife? No? Gay. It just wasn’t a big deal, so they didn’t mention it.
He was seeking glory(holes)
What do you think made his eyes like that? Many shots didn’t show him below the waist.
So he could put a (susie)dent in them, for honor!
Gay people: Exist and their relationships are depicted in media alongside straight ones, with the same emphasis
Dumb Motherfuckers: WHY ARE YOU MAKING A BIG DEAL OUT OF PEOPLE BEING GAY? STOP SHOVING IT DOWN OUR THROATS!
I wish someone would shove some gay down my throat.
It’s the free drugs argument all over again, the right wing promising us good times that never actually happen in real life
It’s like that thing where if a meeting has women talking for 20% of the time some men freak out about how it’s all women all the time.
They’re emotionally keyed up so it feels like a bigger deal, and they’re emotionally keyed up so they’re not going to rationally assess this. That’d assuming they’re acting in good faith to begin with, which is not a given.
I can’t tell you how tired I am of the privileged whining about how the onset of equality is discriminating against them.
They think they’re losing rights and freedoms when in reality they don’t have as many more rights as disenfranchised groups than they used to. It’s not a pie chart.
I was watching an anime this season that unexpectedly to me turned out to have a large gay subplot.All of the characters turned out to be gay men and they’re all infatuated with the main character.
I was surprised that I found that entire subplot and its associated scenes so incredibly tedious. It made me wonder whether gay people feel the same way watching straight romances.
I find almost all depictions of romance in fiction to be tedious, if not cringe. For me it’s less about the gender or number of participants and more about writers not knowing how to depict an authentic, realistic romance.
That being said, Academy’s depiction of Lura and Jett’s relationship is just right to me. I was skeptical about the show because all I hear from both sides of the political aisle is how bad it is, but it’s surprisingly good.
Its been a good season for the gay anime. It hasn’t bored me, but it has made me actively contrast and compare them with other anime, the same as you.
I watched the orphan black reboot. Pretty much all the women are lesbians. I think it was the only way to make the plot line work. But I’m like. … In the real world it’s just not THAT common.
I mean I laughed just cause it seemed like they had to make all the women gay to make the new story work with the previous story.
If you watch it you will get what I mean. I wasn’t bothered by it though. Just amused a bit. Never seen so many lesbians in a TV show like that.
They did do it well though. Didn’t stoop to using stereotypes or the masculine-fem pairing that is prevalent in gay media representation.
My gay friend says that cis producers can’t imagine genuine gay couples that don’t have a man-woman dynamic (mostly cause of cultural gender roles in a relationship ), So they always project this onto gay couples. I think he’s right about that.
Personally, yeah usually. A poorly written sapphic romance can hold my interest, but a straight one has to have me really caring about the characters or finding the romance relatable (Sanderson is really good for that) in order for me to not be wanting it to hurry up and get back to the good stuff.
The only ones shoving it down their throats is focks newz and their ilk. I used to be far more deeply engrained into internet culture and the only time I find out about all the travesty of wOkE mEdIa is because the right winger cultists not shutting the fuck up about it.
Wait, you’re telling me these SciFi Spartan analogs are GAY?!
When will the Woke end? Next you’re going to tell me the Trill are gender fluid!
Is that what those symbiotes are swimming in?
Proof that Sisko is straight as an arrow
Sisko was Curzons lover
Does someone have an issue with Jay’Den? I think he’s a great klingon. And who says he’s gay? He might be bi/poly like his dads.
Also his sexuality isn’t any more in your face than caleb and tarima and all their smooching.
People will seriously complain about anything won’t they?
Didn’t you know? Everyone is straight, until they’re proven gay. And only women are allowed to be bi. /s
I have an issue with him being named Jayden.
I thought it was cheesy too NGL, but he’s a great character
They originally spelled it with a “G”, but changed it so the “gif” people wouldn’t say it wrong.
See, that is a fair critique. Maybe the house of kraag was watching some human millennial shows?
It must have been another reason, or he would have been named Jeigh-Den 🤷🏼♂️
I really couldn’t care less about the whole gay aspect.
However, in my personal head-canon Jay-Den’s sensitivity and fear of public speaking doesn’t quite line up with how I imagine the mind and emotions of a full-blood Klingon would work. I feel like every Klingon would have the instincts and emotions of a predator/hunter and I haven’t quite seen that in Jay-Den. To me the character would make more sense if he was only part Klingon, like Alexander.
Then again, who’s to say to what extent stereotypical Klingon behaviour is defined culturally as opposed to genetically? I do think it’s interesting and refreshing to see a Klingon acting contrary to cultural norms and I do like the character. The only other Klingon character I can recall who wasn’t a full-blown warrior is that one scientist in TNG.
Everyone thinks all Orions are pirates but as Tendi said, “somebody had to build all the starships.”
I’m more inclined to like a Klingon who’s just got a different personality than someone like Worf who never shut the hell up about Klingon tradition since he was always trying to prove he was a warrior.
but as Tendi said, “somebody had to build all the starships.”
Relevant comic:
I have a feeling that Worf never shut up because he was raised by humans, so he always felt like he had to prove himself as Klingon
I’m more inclined to like a Klingon who’s just got a different personality than someone like Worf who never shut the hell up about Klingon tradition since he was always trying to prove he was a warrior.
We already had this in the “exchange program” ep of TNG, when Riker goes on the Klingon ship they aren’t acting like Worf, especially the “Klingons do not laugh” bullshit.
It’s because Worf has a chip on his shoulder because of his human upbringing and his father not dying a warrior’s death
I feel like every Klingon would have the instincts and emotions of a predator/hunter and I haven’t quite seen that in Jay-Den.
There was that one doctor klingon in Enterprise and also a lawyer klingon in a different episode of Enterprise. Not all klingons are hunters/predators. Some find honor in helping people.
As for Alexander I think he was so timid for a klingon because of his upbringing, not from his 1/4 human part.
Plus Worf’s ancestor the public defender in Undiscovered Country.
The only problem I have with Jay’Den is his name sounds like one of those stereotype white names, Jaiden. And its purely because memes have blasted those names out of resonability for me. Okaiden.
So, you’re saying those names don’t echo through your mind? 🤔
Serious question. Would Klingon culture see this as a weakness? They would be unable to reproduce but it’s that dishonorable?
There is nothing as manly as gay sex.
Klingon sex is akin to battle. Especially if they are “sword fighting”.
The real question would be if a klingon dies during gay sex, would they go to Stovokor?
Yeah that was my first thought too. Was like, if sex is combat… wait how are there any STRAIGHT Klingon men actually??? Nothing more honorable than defeating a stronger foe in combat.
Also with how ingrained group dynamics are in Klingon society, I’d be surprised if poly group relationships weren’t commonplace.
Ultimately I like to think its never been brought up before because the Klingons are an enlightened, advanced civilization and the idea of two dudes banging doesn’t even occur to them as dishonorable or wrong.
There is nothing as manly as gay sex
2 brave Klingon warriors locked into the heat of battle!
Lol great answer
I feel like it wouldn’t matter. Like having a romantic relationship is irrelevant to them, but the joining of houses would be a different story. Even then, the Klingons adopt and add people to their houses with some frequency, so siring an heir doesn’t strike me as an obligation so much as making sure the house survives and performs deeds of honor.
The honor system is pretty subjective, I believe Worf was in a catch22 where not joining the Klingons to fight the federation was considered dishonourable but betraying the federation was also dishonourable.
For this situation i would say that creating offspring would be considered honourable but lying to your partner and yourself about your true feelings of love would be very dishonourable.
Also in many context just because you did not do an honorable thing yourself, that does not automatically dishonour you.
Disclaimer: yeah Klingons are fictional and can be whatever we want them to be. And I celebrate and have no issue with Star Trek’s continual inclusion of queer characters.
But would it really be so bad if Klingons did not have the same moral and cultural values that humanity does? I think it would make a far more interesting show. It’s easy to preach tolerance and acceptance when everyone is culturally more or less the same, but it’s a much deeper moral dilemma when there are fundamental differences in the way they view the universe.
And would be much more analogous to cross-cultural differences on Earth today.
I think we’ve seen too much of Klingons being reasonable enough people when it comes to social issues that I don’t think that’s a path we should explore if only because there are other means of doing it.
Orville does it a lot like older Trek, which is to say, beats you over the head with a concept you may be experiencing in day to day life and shows the real world consequences of opinions around it. They have a storyline about a Klingon-like race that is strictly male (they sex change the babies if they’re not male), the ‘right’ opinion is very clear by how the main protagonists react, but they can’t just overrule another culture or people
In this way, they assert that the learned/educated belief is to let people be who they are, and restricting that only causes pain and trauma and the rift it tears in families can be massive. They flipped the issue on it’s head. “Forced sex changes” is the big fear Republicans in the US have been touting this last few decades, so now the uber-masculine species is forced to be all male and any disagreement is systematically squashed and discouraged. But it’s so painfully clear the Moclans are in wrong, and the tension of the show comes down to how systems oppress others and the limited options for outside entities to intervene.
Essentially my point is that people WANT a utopian show where the good guys are really doing good things and the universe is mostly on it’s way away from the troubles we experience in society today. Orville and Old Trek both asserted that some things have already been handled in Earth’s history, like capitalism and gender/sex discrimination, and that people who disagree are anachronistic and often farther behind in other technologies. Call the dumb people dumb on my fantasy show, and do it in a way that let’s the audience experience the issue without making it an opinion that holds ANY mainstream appeal outside of clearly-wrong fringe groups.
If it’s not a problem for Kirk to kiss Uhura then why should homosexuality be an actual contention point in Star Trek in 2026? Just give us another allegory for it and we’ll pick it up and move on
One of my favourite bits of TOS is when Space Abraham Lincoln calls her a Negress, then apologises for being racist, but Uhura genuinely doesn’t know what the fuck racism is.
Unlike Sisko, she’s never studied history, so she doesn’t even know Earth used to have that sort of bigotry. That’s the sort of culture I aspire to be part of one day. One where racism is so dead that nobody knows what it is.
I might be misreading this, but the show isn’t making his sexuality the contention point, it’s the people commenting on the show online. It has been roughly 5 minutes total (I haven’t counted tbh) they dedicate to him and Kyle.
In the show, it’s his desire to be a healer and embrace Federation science that causes tension with his family. Of that, I’d argue his family was visibly more angry about him embracing the Federation.
My only hope is the writers are competent enough to see through the numerous subplots they’re weaving in a way that isn’t too handwavy or drag too many of them them out across seasons.
In the show, it’s his desire to be a healer and embrace Federation science that causes tension with his family. Of that, I’d argue his family was visibly more angry about him embracing the Federation.
Given that his parents are a polyamorous throuple it seems likely that if there is any anti-gay bigotry in Klingon culture it wouldn’t come from his parents.
I believe I misread, then. As I thought your commentary was on the idea that we SHOULD make their homosexuality and the feelings/beliefs of his people a plot point to be investigated and played out instead of seen as “in Star Trek, we’ve moved on from simple bigotry, we now do space bigotry” like I’d expect.
I, admittedly, haven’t seen the show (fuck Paramount, and my piracy days are on hold) and only based that on the initial comment which I thought to be in support of making the character’s sexuality their plot point instead of their journey/ambitions as a character driving their change and story.
Oftentimes I find that I prefer semi-episodic Trek, but having plots stay relevant isn’t so bad when it’s actually addressed. I hope they handle those this time around and that the series is on firm legs by the time I go to watch it.
Thank you for giving me more info on it
why should homosexuality be an actual contention point in Star Trek in 2026?
Because like it or not, homosexuality and transexuality are still very real points of contention on Earth in 2026. And Star Trek has always been about discussing and pushing back against those kinds of intolerances.
Moreso, in the same way Uehara kissing Kirk was a problem at the time, it’s not shown as a problem in the show, reinforcing that normal, sensible people already believe it’s fine. So in that same vein, make homosexuality and transexuality normal in Star Trek, and investigate bigotry through another allegory. As they often do
Moreso, in the same way Uehara kissing Kirk was a problem at the time, it’s not shown as a problem in the show
You might want to rewatch that scene. The entire point was that the evil aliens were telepathically controlling Kirk/Uhura and making them do things against their will.
Which is exactly what I was talking about. Uhura and Kirk kissing was appalling because it was two people being forced to engage physically against their will. The appalling part wasn’t that there was an interracial kiss, pushing the idea that, in the future there is no problem with interracial relationships or interactions.
It is a story about consent that also cements that racism isn’t an ideal upheld by the ‘good and socially advanced’ people of the federation.
There are cultures on earth that are straight up homophobic, but will accept the use of force for a man to penetrate another man as a show of dominance.
I worked with a Pakistani man many years ago who literally said “it’s not gay if you’re the one giving” and to this day I’m not sure I’ve heard anything gayer.
Love is love just so we’re clear. I just shake my head at how badly some cultural beliefs can twist reality.
Yeah, it’s a surprisingly widely held belief. Iv’e heard the same thing in both West and Southern Africa. IIRC, it was the Sierra Leonean Civil War where it was a documented practice.
It’s a shit show for many other reasons, but not this one.
What, you don’t like the main character immediately running into and immediately getting crushed on by a princess the moment her species shows up? Or being the main character to come up with a basic idea to appeal to them that a several hundred year old supposedly wise person couldn’t? Or that they run formal debates in the future like a dance-off? Or that they often talk like people from the 20th century instead of using more timless and intelligent phrasing?
Or that the show is written more like science-FICTION than SCIENCE-fiction while wearing Trek paint? … ok ok that one is generic and kinda’ applies to all new trek…
