Thought this might spur some decent discussion. Lots of libs in the comments but a few good points made.
This and veganism feel like the same circle I don’t know how to square when it comes to mass politics. Masking and not consuming animal products are the right things to do, there aren’t really any good arguments against them, but I have no idea how we are supposed to make them fit with a mass political movement. Maybe I’m too pessimistic but I really don’t think there is a world (at least not within my lifetime) where the majority of people would be willing to give up animal products or to always wear a mask in public for going on half a decade. These are the right things to do, but they are very real and substantial sacrifices that for most people don’t have any immediate or tangible benefits. I suspect people will compare this to false consciousness, point out that the number of people who currently support capitalism is similarly huge, but I don’t think it’s the same. If you are a worker supporting capitalism, you are against your own material interests in a very concrete and tangible way, and this becomes increasingly obvious as the contradictions heighten. Unless someone is a capitalist themselves, if they have the right analysis, socialism is worth fighting for, even if they only care about themselves. I think this is part of what is so powerful about socialist politics. I think it’s what makes it potent as a mass movement. Again, maybe I’m too pessimistic, but I feel like a mass movement can’t be built on compassion alone, at least not in the west. There has to be a personal stake that the majority have in the fight, and I feel like for both COVID consciousness and animal rights that just isn’t there. It’s also something I think about as a trans person, given that the people who are actually materially affected by trans issues is such a small group. If anyone has any thoughts on how to overcome this please let me know. It’s something I think about a lot and am really stumped by.
I have similar thoughts wrt disability
I dont have any thoughts on how to overcome it, but I think part of the difficulty of convincing people of either is that if they accept you’re right, then they have to accept that theyve (and their friends, family, etc) been not just wrong, but actively participating in doing harm.for the last however many years.
I do have one tiny speck of hope of union between labour and animal liberation: from what my comrades in the farmers union have said, most of the workers in slaughterhouses hate their jobs and have nightmares, ptsd, etc from it. If workers controlled their workplaces and directed society, i think we’d see a vast reduction in animal murder just because of this harm it does to them, even setting aside all the moral, ecological and theoretical arguments.
Or in other words, imo the industrial murder of animals is against the interests of the individual agricultural workers involved; and the production of meat for human consumption is against the interests of society as a whole (if only because of the resources involved).
Personally, I am…not hopeful for people overcoming ableism on the whole. There is nothing in my nearly two decades of activism that tells me they will, and I don’t expect this to improve in my lifetime. I would be blown away. Everywhere in the world stigmatizes disability, despite it being one of the only things guaranteed to come to everyone as they age, along with death. It is a fact of life no matter how healthy one is while they live. There is still a very unhealthy relationship with death in many places in the world, especially in western culture, and so it is with disability. Regardless I feel like I have no choice but to keep trying to move the needle.
Yeah, I saw this and considered posting it, but I couldn’t come up with a commentary on it that didn’t involve lots of expletives towards the people here who don’t mask. Totally some libs in the comments, but they are absolutely right and the supposed “leftists” who are abandoning the sick and disabled are a bunch of libs.
The linked thread is largely full of liberals punching left as though they’re not the ones who created this situation (OP defensively assuring people they “still voted” as if the Democrats weren’t the original architects of the spread of this disease while claiming in the title that no leftists are COVID conscious), but it’s true that a lot of self-proclaimed “leftists” seem to have a serious problem with the idea of leading by example and taking very basic and very easy precautions when organizing.
Fact of the matter is I could take the majority of criticism in this thread and drop it in a Lemmy world thread being angry at hexbear for going after dems and it would fit right in. Yeah, they’re libs punching left, so what. In this matter, The Left should stop being so fucking punchable. The vast majority of THIS WEBSITE is anti-mask and pro-eugenics in practice. “The libs believe their vote matters,” well the folks who should be educating them about that don’t believe these folks’ lives matter. So, you’ll have to forgive me if I find all this “punching left” rhetoric rather laughable.
Agreed. I just find it disturbing that OOP is seemingly proud of their vote for the Democrats, who essentially created the mainstream acceptable form of COVID denialism in the USA (and many other places) today. If anything, the problem with the US left is they have largely adopted the liberal position on this issue.
I agree the state of the discourse on this issue on this website is deplorable. I find it tolerable because it at least gets push-back here even in non-explicitly-COVID-focused spaces.
Sure, and if that were the heart of the post it might be worth going on about it, but it’s not. This post is about people who have been abandoned getting mad at the folks they were told are their allies, their protectors. Some of these folks are libs, some of them are actual leftists, which is why there’s such a broad spectrum of “leftists” being blamed in the comments; ZCC is a mishmash of folks largely there not by choice. In another thread, commentary like that usually gets more pushback. ZCC should be one of the ultimate grounds for Leftist agitation and radicalization, instead it’s this.
Agreed, actually, you make a great point especially that ZCC should be the best space for leftist agitation. And re-reading OP in isolation (originally I just skimmed it and read the comments) it’s clearly valid frustration. I guess I was just sensitive to the Democrat thing, because I remember watching in real-time as they acted as the vanguard of global COVID denialism.
The million dollar question is which is worse: liberals who mask or leftists who don’t mask?
A liberal exhibiting growth or a leftist ignoring an ongoing pandemic and an opportunity to undermine the
? Not that hard a choice, imo.
On one hand way too few leftists mask, on the other hand the only people I know still masking are leftists. The only orgs, meetings, and groups that require masks in my area are leftist. I’m sure some individual liberals mask, but not many, and important liberal groups seem to not mask at all. The IWW convention mandatory masks, IWW branches mostly mandate masks, the SWP mandates masks, local PSL mandates masks (idk about nationally), local picket group mandates mask, local DSA masks, etc.
It’s just kinda hard for me to appreciate this punching left when every criticism is 1000 times worse among every other political position. Biden literally ended masking mandates nationally, and long ago stopped wearing masks.
Leftists aren’t doing enough, but nobody else is doing anything, at all. Influential liberals have stopped masking years ago, influential right-wingers never masked, influential “non-political” or “centrist” people might as well be those right-wingers with how little they mask.
One of the big issues is leftist isnt monolithic. Where I am the communist party and young communist league both consist entirely of anti-maskers who advocate minimal online meetings and maximum group dinners. All four communist orgs in my city are the same in this regard. Its very demoralising lol
Edit 2: I was originally really bothered by the “I still voted” thing due to the Democrats having literally been the vanguard of widespread socially-acceptable COVID denialism, but I read the OOP again (after discussing with JoeByeThen in this thread) and it’s really understandable, actually. I think the OOP isn’t extremely politically aware, but they are pointing out a real issue here. The left should be the vanguard of pushing back against this, but today it’s mostly a small portion of the left while the majority has adopted the liberal position completely on this issue.
The linked thread is mostly garbage for the simple reason that many of the people in it clearly don’t know what “left” means, so it’s an eclectic mix of vague but mostly correct critiques of leftist groups and people who are talking about the Democrats (including likely OOP, who defensively assures commenters “they still voted”).
Edit: elsewhere in the thread, OP says “Leftists consider liberals as very non-serious”, so it certainly seems like OP is a radlib and not a leftist. As purpleworm pointed out, very suspicious to title the thread “any leftists” instead of “non-masking leftists” or something similar.
Not even bothering to title the thread with “non-masking leftists” and instead “any leftists” as though no leftist masks is astroturf behavior.
This is a great point. And OP is in the comments saying “Please don’t get me wrong, I still voted” so I think they might not know what a “leftist” actually is. Sadly the linked thread is a mix of liberals and a few leftists, and as far as I can tell the liberals are replying to the leftists as though they’re talking about Democrats, so the whole discussion ends up being completely useless.
CIA synthetic left influenced people are not real leftists. oh I’ve been banned from that sub for making the connection between “pro covid” propaganda and the CIA and it’s control over the media. they will never figure it out unfortunately.
Connection between pro-covid propaganda and the CIA? What are you talking about?
The CIA controls all media. The “everyone get back to work covid is just the flu/“endemic”” didn’t come out of nowhere.
Delusional woke scolding liberals who systematically miss the forest for the trees and seem to always suspiciously lay the blame for society’s ills back on the left that isn’t in power
Hmm, where have I seen this tired formula before?
What forest is being missed for what trees by saying “I am not safe and cannot participate if you, the movement of the people, do not do anything to prevent the spread of a virus among the people that does cumulative, permanent damage to the whole body and at present has no cure or treatment”? Please tell me.
The “forest” is the obvious fact society’s cavalier attitude toward covid is not the fault of the left and certainly not the fault of whatever individual popular leftists ticked that user off, but instead of grappling with those basic facts and constructing an analysis that can lead to actionable practical corrections made by both orgs and individuals, the libs in that thread want to moralize ad nasuasum as if the wider left is in any position to dictate health policies for anything other than the most irrevleant spaces
“Society doesn’t do it so we can’t be expected to either” is not the justification I would use when talking about supposed groups of revolutionaries.
but instead of grappling with those basic facts and constructing an analysis that can lead to actionable practical corrections made by both orgs and individuals
It’s not a matter of “we can’t be expected to either” and more a matter of accounting for reality and doing something other than moralizing at the void
And the reality is that masks are easily procured and distributed where it is possible, which is a fair amount of places! You can read my other posts in this thread about what this looks like “in reality” if you are actually curious about this and not just doing the abrasive internet argument thing, which I am not hopeful is the case. Just about every urban center in the US and then some has a COVID-aware mask bloc very eager to help any group or demonstration with logistics, supply, and education when it is wanted. Guess when it is wanted, and by which organizations? The answer is never, and none. That is not a matter of logistics and lack of holistic analysis, but a matter of will. None of you think this matters enough to do something about it when the doing is indeed very doable. When’s the last time you wore a mask, or did anything to help mitigate the spread of COVID in your organizing? I can probably make a good guess: not anytime in the last…I’ll say 4 years, at least? But nothing has materially changed since then, except that disease has gotten even worse around the board, which sounds like even more of an argument in favor of being militant about the prevention of its spread. Respirators are in fact easier than ever to come by. They practically give them away surplus now, and there’s nothing functionally wrong with them. Where is your analysis? Where is your action?
And the reality is that masks are easily procured and distributed where it is possible, which is a fair amount of places!
Are you telling me or American Society in whole? I mask, you think you’re gonna tell me something I don’t already know?
That is not a matter of logistics and lack of holistic analysis, but a matter of will
Well you better hope that’s not the case, cause if it’s a battle between your will and the dumb atomized mass of American society, then you’re gonna lose
So maybe we should take the need to perform a holistic analysis a little more seriously
Where is your analysis?
There’s no united left media ecosystem that can provide a counternarrative to the dual threats of covid denialism and liberal post-pandemic assurances, orgs serious about combating these scourges should be collating long covid data and testimony and sensationalizing it at arenas of media virality like town halls and school board meetings, a mirror strategy to the right’s anti-woke crusades at local level during the Biden years…that’s just the start
Are you telling me or American Society in whole? I mask, you think you’re gonna tell me something I don’t already know?
Did you know that? By the rest of your posts you seem more concerned about “scolds” on the wrong side of the fence correctly criticizing a blind spot in your movements than the fact that these cadres exist and do this work you are now telling me is impossible and also not happening. Are you helping to make it happen?
Well you better hope that’s not the case, cause if it’s a battle between your will and the dumb atomized mass of American society, then you’re gonna lose
…and they say I’m a “doomer”! Then what’s the point of any of this? You’ve proven the scolds right.
If you are in an org you have the power to make that org accessible / safe.
Everyday I’m shocked at how many popular “leftists” on the internet (& in my personal life) don’t mask. I want leaders & educators to look up to but can’t help feeling betrayed, confused, and honestly embarrassed for them about their lack of awareness or care.
Does this strike you as a person who cares about orgs? What they seem to care about is feeling superior to their parasocial crushes online
Expecting the people who cast themselves as leaders of a movement to actually practice what they preach is not some sort of selfish desire to feel superior
Hoisting your leadership on a pedestal and refusing to allow them the right of exigency and practicality is selfish behavior
The left is not in any position to organize society along health-friendly lines, yet every lib in that thread seems to think they live in a reality where that is the case
It’s a refusal to grasp functional context is any serious way, and instead confuses demoralization with nominal notions of accountability, in other words next to useless crap
Step one of being in position to organise society along health friendly lines would be working to make our orgs covid safe instead of complaining about people talking about how our orgs arent covid safe. Wtf are you crashing out over this for
This is nonsense. You describe a situation where we are not allowed to ask or expect anything of our leaders lest we be deemed selfish. Where we are not allowed to fight for a better society since doing so would just be impractical. Should our forebears have decided that to fight against racism in a fundamentally racist society was impractical, that to fight against homophobia in a fundamentally homophobic society was impractical? If that’s your idea of revolution count me out.
This is nonsense. You describe a situation where we are not allowed to ask or expect anything of our leaders lest we be deemed selfish
The ability of leadership to exercise exigency or practicality does not make them immune to critique or assessment; in fact when we do away with the distracting idealism, we open the path towards a more competent and rigorous application of constructive critique that actually cares about results rather than the appearance of propriety
Should our forebears have decided that to fight against racism in a fundamentally racist society was impractical, that to fight against homophobia in a fundamentally homophobic society was impractical?
Are you under the impression none of those movements engaged in pragmatism or the practical application of theory? You think they weren’t shooting from one adaptive strategy to the next, you think they were all squeaky clean angels without a problematic bone in their bodies?
You mention my “idea of revolution”, I wonder at yours
As far as I can tell, you’re not actually saying anything in this comment. What is “exigency and practicality” in this case? What would be the “more competend and rigorous application of constructive critique”?
There’s pragmatism and there’s inaction and you seem to be arguing for the latter when it comes to anti-Covid organizing
The left is not in any position to organize society along health-friendly lines, yet every lib in that thread seems to think they live in a reality where that is the case
yes but people in orgs have the power to organise in a safe way. is that not true?
woke scolding
Opinion disregarded
If this was 2019, I’d be devastated
Vague posting about “leftists” always feels turfed or at least naive. I don’t see a difference from right-wingers complaining about woke.
This kind of doomerism doesnt help anything. In my opinion, a Marxist doesn’t take the attitude that the people fail the revolutionaries. Only the revolutionaries can fail the people. If the people are struggling to stand with our disabled comrades, then it’s an opportunity for us to step forward and address the root causes, and also to make it easy to do the right thing. E.g. fund free masks, mandate masks within leftist organizational spaces, inform without distancing oneself from the masses.
E.g. fund free masks, mandate masks within leftist organizational spaces, inform without distancing oneself from the masses.
Have you tried doing any of this? Because I have, frequently, along with a bloc of like-minded people, a “mask bloc” if you will, and for 6 years very consistently the attitude among individuals attending protests, demonstrations around my city, and the various organizations that participate in them has been that I am secretly a fed trying to sow discord, I’m bougie for still caring, or that I’m simply a wrecker to be disregarded, and at best, they will tune me out. What other conclusion am I to draw from this reaction? This poster in the linked thread has the right of it:
… the left has always been shockingly terrible on disability awareness/advocacy, and there’s a large overlap between that and paying attention to COVID.
We’re propagandized from birth to essentially ignore everything related to public health unless you’re “at risk” - it’s blatantly eugenics propaganda, but the reality is that most people aren’t going to confront that until it tangibly personally affects them.
and as everyone loves saying, you are not immune to propaganda. Someone else in the thread posted this, which I also agree with:
Ableism is the most acceptable discrimination …
Not a single person or group I have worked with IRL that has not already made masking and mitigating COVID a core foundation of their praxis has budged on this in the last half-decade, and it’s not because I’m wrong. I wish I was! Thankfully, I believe everyone will come around eventually whether they want to or not, because this level of reckless disregard for health and the constant spread of illness not materially sustainable. The trends since 2020 are consistent and there is a single throughline: COVID negligence. I just wish people would stop being complete nobs about it in the meantime, to put my feelings very, very lightly.
I completely believe you, and agree it’s frustrating. The normalization of Covid is something to criticize.
Disappointment is something to be used to as someone trying to steer a ship against an ocean swell of propaganda. If it’s not disappointment about Covid, it will be about the latent (or blatant) chauvinism among western socialists. Or lack of intersectionality among groups that really should be able to connect their own struggle with another.
Fixating on this disappointment is counter-revolutionary and I don’t see anything useful coming from a Reddit post complaining about “leftists” writ-large, telling people that fighting is useless, telling people to stop showing up to the organizations in which they participate.
Fixating on this disappointment is counter-revolutionary and I don’t see anything useful coming from a Reddit post complaining about “leftists” writ-large, telling people that fighting is useless, telling people to stop showing up to the organizations in which they participate.
This would be something worth expanding on if the simple act of merely showing up was accessible, but it’s not, and it’s due to the actions of the masses which refuse to change! That’s the point! For someone like me who is immunosuppressed, who is very vulnerable to severe complications from this virus (though no one is immune, is also the point), I am effectively locked out of participating in a movement that is supposed to be my movement until everyone else gets their act together. “We keep us safe,” after all, but do you really? Do you see the problem? Should I just sit at home, then? Does your movement truly speak for me, among the lowest of us, if this is the case? No one can answer these questions. I am already being told not to show up, but not by the Reddit libs.
Have you tried doing any of this? Because I have, frequently, along with a bloc of like-minded people, a “mask bloc” if you will, and for 6 years very consistently the attitude among individuals attending protests, demonstrations around my city, and the various organizations that participate in them has been that I am secretly a fed trying to sow discord, I’m bougie for still caring, or that I’m simply a wrecker to be disregarded, and at best, they will tune me out.
Not to be a dick, but it kind of sounds like you all need to refine your approach to talking to people about masking and figure out how to develop a lot more patience because pushing people to change is really hard.
I agree that we need to be better about masking, I agree that orgs could put more emphasis on encouraging people to mask at their events, but it’s also true that we have limited attention and resources. Realistically, we need disciplined and well organized pro masking groups to show up in coalition, with other groups, to provide resources and education in a conducive way.
Meeting people where they’re at honestly sucks, but if we actually want to reach them, what alternative is there?
Not to be a dick, but it kind of sounds like you all need to refine your approach to talking to people about masking and figure out how to develop a lot more patience because pushing people to change is really hard.
We have had 6 years and many, many events to refine and tailor our approach. I can tell you with confidence there is no approach that works better than any of the others. If there was something, anything that worked, we would know and would be doing it by now. We’ve tried being militant, we’ve tried being patient, we’ve tried “meeting people where they are,” and all of this has had the same efficacy and staying power: zero. We provide everything along with guidance, and we are ignored while business goes on as usual. We give the means to independently assess and handle risk to each individual or group, and we are ignored while business goes on as usual. I am all ears for any actual experience you may have with this!
Health interventions are tough, and they kinda go on forever. I wonder if this kind of work could be best approached as a community health project, like a community clinic type thing. Rather than focusing on getting people to adopt covid protocols, focus on getting people involved in addressing the healthcare needs of marginalized and disabled people in the community. That way you’re pulling people into a context where they’re asking for training to be able to safely assist their neighbors and struggling together to improve health outcomes in the community. This might not be exactly the focus you’re looking for, but I think there’s a broader issue that forms the backdrop of the general apathy towards covid safety. I bet there are multiple mutual aid groups in your area who would be open to expanding their services to include basic health training and care.
I’m always supportive of masking, but I forget to mask a lot because I’m forgetful. I especially mask in high risk areas, but only because I take lots of precautions against forgetting that just aren’t practical day to day. I could do better, maybe, if I ever get proper treatment for my ADD.
I could even accept mandatory masks, but it only makes sense if the orgs have enough resources to provide them for everyone. Turning willing people away because they forgot is a great way not to have anyone at your event.
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