Disclaimer: I don’t want this to come across as downplaying the suffering of the victims, or the horrific nature of the crimes.
That being said, I think Epstein is becoming an obsession for people that is pointless, doesn’t advance the left wing movement, and is borderline unhealthy to be honest.
People on this site and beyond are doing borderline Q-Anon level baking, using random scraps from documents and making extremely tenuous connections. This shit is unhealthy, obsessing over it and staring into the abyss of depravity is just going to cause yourself psychic damage, and for what? It’s borne out of the same thing as all conspiracism: a feeling of powerlessness, a feeling that by uncovering the mystery, doing this “investigation”, finding some hidden truth, you are doing something tangible rather than just obsessing and suffering on the internet.
This isn’t to say I don’t think all things are on the table - “he was mossad”, “this or that person was involved”, “what if he’s still alive?”. But ask yourself, what changes? What changes if any of this is true? Are any of us shocked or surprised by 99% of the names dredged up? These are all people that we already consider ontologically evil for numerous other crimes and their class position. We already know that there are 10,000 ultra powerful, ultra wealthy people who control the world, who act with impunity, who are all interconnected and who all have bourgeois class solidarity that the workers can only dream of at this stage.
And what tactical or strategic advantage is offered to working class movements we are involved in by uncovering this hidden truth? We currently have no power to punish the guilty or prevent it from happening again. Epstein himself is likely dead, most of the people mentioned are dead, or ancient and on their way out. Should we be forming pressure groups and protesting our governments to thoroughly investigate and punish the guilty? If half of what is in the files is true, our governments are riddled with people who are complicit if not actively involved.
So what is the route by which the people’s justice can be served? The same as always - the working class needs to win political power. Our time is better served thinking about how we can advance the ball on concrete issues, work with our irl organisations to build working class power. I think driving ourselves mad on the internet and expanding so much mental energy tying red string between random names and events on our mental corkboards is deleterious to this mission.
Now, I’m open to the idea that using the Epstein angle in propaganda to disillusion workers of billionaires and capitalism could be useful, but that doesn’t require more than a cursory knowledge of the situation, knowledge we’ve all had for 6 years at this point.
As marxists we shouldn’t be hyperfixating on Epstein as the keystone of everything “evil” on earth. We have a class analysis and an understanding of the system superseding the role of the individual. Things such as “epstein was working for Mossad” - ok, that may well be true, but does it change our analysis of Israel? Does it affect how we view the settler-colonial relationship? Could it possibly make them any more morally bankrupt than the genocide we’ve been watching for 2.5 years? Than a century of ethnic cleansing?
I get this feeling that doesn’t sit well with me, that this is becoming some grotesque spectacle of “true crime”, motivated by an inability to look away, by the conspiratorial powerlessness I mentioned above, and by the same instincts that make endless podcast series and TV shows about gruesome murders eternally popular. And it is taking up so much oxygen on the left - ffs, the United States is about to try and topple its second government in a month and everyone is too busy combing through the epstein files to see if 
or 
are in there.
Tl;dr: don’t drive yourself insane trying to know the unknowable, focus on the concrete, focus on things you can change, advance the ball!
I agree on all parts but I’ll add that I think this is also an opportunity to teach people that haven’t known these realities, that there is in fact no “normal” to return to. the only way out of this is through, and a lot of people are (or are going to be) looking for what things need to look like on the other side of it all. just like with ICE protests, there’s clear opportunity to engage with people and teach them community organizing and what a leftward future can look like
I can understand your concern, but I’m more getting the vibe that people here are just enjoying themselves. It’s a dunk-fest, which I think is fine. I do agree, as I hope most here do, that these files are a kind of sideshow to to the collapse of capitalism into fascism.
The crimes epstein committed and that the USA and its ally-vassals continue to commit are horrifying and depressing
The fact that he was posting on 4chan, types typos constantly, sending fnaf porn animatics to his friends, despite being so rich is the funniest shit ive seen since musks pathetic livestream from his private jet
since musks pathetic livestream from his private jet
God, so many things have happened that this was lost like tears in rain
It’s even weirder when you learn that Elon paid someone else to play the game for him and grind stuff lol.
Legitimately the funniest part was how he created this gamer facade like his usual bullshit but instead of being some lofty gatekept science like astrophysics it was just videogame stats. So when his
rocket explodedI mean character failed to perform anyone with a cursory understanding of the game knew who and what was fucking up.I didn’t even know what that game was like but when people started clowning on him I looked up high level play by other gamers vs him playing and it was clear he had no idea what he was fucking doing.
When people clowned on his Elden Ring build I wasn’t in on the joke, I don’t play Elden Ring, I don’t know what good stats look like. So I just had to trust the online rumor mill.
But when he tried to stream and he was visibly fucking up and the chat was telling him he was a pedophile and that he should kill himself, mercilessly, every .2 seconds, well, I didn’t have to play Path of Exile. I was able to enjoy that straight up.
Remind me, what was this again?
He was playing Path of Exile 2 and struggled really hard to beat a boss while playing on Starlink internet. The boss is honestly quite difficult so I can’t fault him too much for failing at it, except he was top 10 in the ladder at the time because he had paid some people to play on his account. IIRC as soon as he logged in he got whispered by someone telling him he had no friends and should kill himself.
Ah, now I recall that. Ty
here’s a snippet that there’s screenshots for, which still makes me laugh:
“YOU HAVE NO REAL FRIENDS AND WILL DIE ALONE,” wrote one user whose account was called “Elon_Musk_is_a_peedophile,” before hitting return repeatedly so the message would keep appearing.
Hot take: The depravity in the Epstein files combined with this being the first time many people realise they’re in a class war against the rich, who are already organised, is a pretty reasonable thing to be the cause of your brain breaking a bit.
I remember I had a bit of a
when I learned Bohemian grove was real some decade ago or. That the rich and powerful actually meet up in the middle of the woods once a year for a several-days-long bacchanalia and we all just know it and pretend it’s not happening? Made my mind melt.Reading about children being used as incubators for babies that are disappeared never to be seen again, is supposed to make you deranged. It’s fucked up and it’s fucked up that it’s treated like regular celebrity gossip.
That the rich and powerful actually meet in smoke-filled rooms and carry out crimes against humanity gleefully is now not just something you know spiritually, you have written confessions from the creeps themselves. And we don’t know how involved this shit is. Pretending like you do, pretending like you’re somehow above it is just falling for the regular “don’t worry about that craaazy conspiracy theory” propaganda.
Not even 10% of the files have been released and what has been released has been heavily redacted and even then people are far from done looking through them and what they do find is biblically evil. It’s the kind of stuff Alex Jones would rant about, but here presented with actual credibility. Not only are depraved acts described gleefully by participants, but the overarching capitalist world order is implicated directly. Unironically we do not know how far this shit goes. Ghislaine Maxwell was one of the most active moderators on all of reddit. Her dad met up with Mother Theresa. Epstein hung out presidents. Whatever it is, it’s spread out.
Older conspiracies like the brabrant killings and the Dutroux affair and the tinfoil shit around those now seem almost sensible, due to what is seen discussed.
It is also an incredible tool for radicalisation. I’ve used it for many fruitful discussions. Pointing out how practically every one is in it, regardless of outwards political affilitations, has been very useful.
The only derangement syndrome I see with this Epstein-thing is Trump Derangement Syndrome. It’s become just another element of the current regimes moral corruption, instead of the blatant black spot on the last three decades of the political establishment.
Not related to anything really but in the wikipedia for Bohemian Grove:
Wage theft
In June 2023, a group of former workers sued Bohemian Grove alleging wage theft and unfair labor practices.[50] The club was dismissed from the lawsuit in January 2024 after a judge ruled it did not fit the legal definition of an employer.[51] In May 2024, another lawsuit was filed.[52]
Lmao
the rich and powerful actually meet up in the middle of the woods once a year for a several-days-long bacchanalia and we all just know it and pretend it’s not happening?
And the poor and powerless actually meet up in the woods to hit each other with foam swords. Who gives a fuck about the theme of their annual LARP, if people weren’t so distracted by fears of demons and black magic maybe they’d recognise the most damning aspect of things like Bohemian Grove is that the participants all let their hair down and stop pretending they aren’t on the same side, regardless of their public political ideology and kayfabe conflicts.
I give a fuck, obviously, since I decided to mention it. You could just have asked why I do instead of this passive-agressive dismissal.
I don’t believe there is anything “spiritual” to it, but the fact that what has been a punchline in movies and tv-shows, plotline in hacky true crime and I don’t know what else in popular culture, is something that is actually going on is wild to me. That people like Hillary Clinton and George Bush meet up, in person, for some weird theatre-kid LARP in the woods on a regular basis is pretty crazy in my world. I could just go “oh yeah they’re all in cahoots, we know this” like how people go “well what did you expect? All politicans are corrupt” but that the most powerful people in the world ACTUALLY meet up IN PERSON and do WEIRD SHIT is something that sticks out in my brain moreso than the idea of some vague smokefilled room where capital aligns its material interests.It is definitely remarkable that so many of them meet in person like that to go on a social summer camp every year for sure.
Why do the specific aesthetics of it hit so hard for you though? To me it’s just seems like a more exclusive burning man festival.
I don’t really know why the aesthetics hit like they do. I think it might be something about how direct it is? Or maybe obvious is a better word. It’s as if every rich person is Richard III or Iago and we’re the audience to whom they’re looking out, explaining how evil they are.
I think the best way I can describe it is like this:
Imagine you find out Hell and Satan is real. Not only is it real, but it is exactly like it’s drawn in shitty newspaper comics. Satan is a red guy with horns and a tail with an arrow bit. Hell is a gate and flames.
Not only that, but you get the distinct feeling that Satan picked this look because of the comics. Or maybe the comics were influenced by him to look like him? Or maybe they just hit the nail on the head when they guessed what the whole thing looked like? You oscillate between all the answers and, as you do so, you find out that this whole “The devil is actually real and he’s actually a red guy who lives surrounded by flames” thing is something people just know about and are cool about. Nobody gives a shit! And if you start talking about it people will look at you as if you’re crazy for saying “but he is a red guy! There’s actual pictures of him and interviews with him where he talks about being a red guy! There’s a wikipedia article dedicated to how red he is!” and people will say “yeah, you know, that’s the bible for you. Eternal damnation and so on. Who really knows how much of that stuff is real though?” or they’ll say “What you really believe he’s a red guy?” even though there’s pictures and everything!And you’re just stood there with the knowledge and the knowledge that everyone else also has the knowledge and half the people act like it’s nothing and the other half act like you’re crazy for believing the knowledge.
If it was just a smoke-filled room then it would feel different. It’s the whole Aleister Crowley vibe to it. AND it also gets to me whenever some other shit happens, is THAT part of this billionaire theatre kid larp too? The owl of minerva or whatever people talk about with washington DC or Denver Airport or 9/11 air traffic control having a guy named Crowley working on the day. It’s all just a larp and it’s all just aesthetics, but how much of this world is just run for some fucking dorky ass theatre kids doing a fucked up larp?
lol, true. That’s fair enough, I apologise for being glib and rude. I’m used to people fixating on and reacting purely to the aesthetics despite how boringly predictable it is. I feel like I’m usually the one pulling my hair out like “YES OF COURSE HES RED AND ON FIRE AND HAS A POINTY TAIL WE HAVE TO MOVE PAST THE BANALITY OF EVIL” which is usually useless because it turns out half the population seem to literally believe in demons and the power of blood sacrifice and take the whole thing as proof of that.
So yeah my bad.
YES OF COURSE HES RED AND ON FIRE AND HAS A POINTY TAIL WE HAVE TO MOVE PAST THE BANALITY OF EVIL
I relate to that too, I think. Both in that people fixate on the one red guy instead of the whole hell-thing (yeah Trump bad, can we talk about the global billionaire pedophile ring seemingly running modern society?) and people going all in on the aesthetics being the issue like with the satanic panic of yesteryear. I don’t know if that’s what you mean, but I do at least feel apprehensive when people overly focus on either one individual or the occult aspect of this kind of stuff.
On the other hand I don’t think it should be discounted either. They discuss killing children in those files. That is occult shit. It’s necessary to talk about how said global pedophile ring is seemingly obsessed with weird shit like that. It’s an aspect of some larger monster or something. I don’t know, the whole thing feels eldritch, impossible to properly talk about or analyse.Or I don’t know if it’s necessary or impossible, but I feel a need that we acknowledge that on top of them being capitalist fascist sexual freaks, they’re also being occult weirdos about it and that’s a bit spooky or icky or something.
my bad
Thank you, it’s okay. I’m prickly at the moment as well, and I’m sorry about that.
The aesthetics of it matter because the rich and powerful are getting off on being as depraved and “taboo” as possible, which feeds into their pedophilia fascination.
Bohemian Grove without the aesthetics is Davos
And what tactical or strategic advantage is offered to working class movements we are involved in by uncovering this hidden truth?
This seems to be the crux of your argument, and I have to ask, can you seriously not see the obvious? The mother of all radicalizing catalysts has dropped into our laps and you’re asking of what tactical or strategic use this is to the workers movements?
How about millions upon millions of people radicalizing toward revolutionary sentiments because they’ve realized the capitalist class aren’t just wage thieves but also murderous pedophiles who target their children?
How about the myth of liberalism dying in the minds of countless people when they witness these pedos continue on as if nothing has happened, exploding our pool of recruitment?
How about the utter exposure of the vast Isreali global spy network and the further discrediting of zionism in the minds of libs who didn’t care about dead Palestinians?
As marxists we shouldn’t be hyperfixating on Epstein as the keystone of everything “evil” on earth
We as Marxists shouldn’t focus on how the capitalist class organizes amongest itself socially and how it leads to radical evil and depravity?
Things such as “epstein was working for Mossad” - ok, that may well be true, but does it change our analysis of Israel? Does it affect how we view the settler-colonial relationship?
Of course it does! It reveals the US empire isn’t simply obsessed with zionism for the sake of religious derangement or a slavish devotion to a 1950s conception of global resource management, but that large swathes of the American capitalist class are actively compromised, explaining their maximalist positions concerning a genocidal rump state that undermines US global soft power and cultural hegemony
I get this feeling that doesn’t sit well with me, that this is becoming some grotesque spectacle of “true crime”
The problem with “True Crime” is that it never implicates the capitalist class, the Epstein case clearly does
We already know that there are 10,000 ultra powerful, ultra wealthy people who control the world, who act with impunity, who are all interconnected and who all have bourgeois class solidarity that the workers can only dream of at this stage.
WE know that, those of us who over the course of years already climbed the mountain and peered over the ridge, but that doesn’t describe the vast majority of people, who don’t conceive of the world the way we do
Whether because of a lack of exposure to socialist thought or because the kayfabe of liberalism blinded them, we have no right to scoff at any opportunity to raise the veil
THANK you
Call me crazy but I think everyone learning that Western rules-based order is actually 100 pedophiles in a trenchcoat is a good icebreaker for radicalization
Look, all due respect, but a couple of months ago you were trying to convince me that mamdani is the best thing to happen to the left since the invention of the colour red*, so I don’t really trust you to analyse anything tbh.
In fact, your commitment on this comes from a similar place as the desperate latching on to Mamdani. People such as yourselves who are still yet to fully renounce their liberalism want shortcuts. They aren’t prepared to do the hard yards of building class consciousness. You want an electoral saviour or a magic bullet to suddenly awaken the people.
How about millions upon millions of people radicalizing toward revolutionary sentiments
Source: trust me bro
but that large swathes of the American capitalist class are actively compromised
Congratulations, you have unlocked Russiagate: Israel Edition - yet somehow more liberal. The ruling class has a class interest in operating the way it does. The idea that some puppet master is controlling things is the most liberal take imaginable and totally anti-marxist. This theory also has a whiff of American exceptionalism (as it did when the blue maga types had their version) - “america is good, the evil things it does can be explained by foreign interference”.
*before some epic retort is constructed, this is obvious hyperbole
You seem to have a chip on your shoulder and didn’t really address the parent commenter’s points.
Knowledge that AmeriKKKa is in no small part run but a cabal of billionaire pedophiles, many of whom engage in not just sexual violence but outright torture, is absolutely radicalizing. It is our “job” to turn that disgust and revulsion into class consciousness, because otherwise such radicalization can be subsumed by the larger superstructure. I agree that fixating on it is counterproductive in the same vein as fixating on who really killed JFK, but it is easy rhetorical fuel and to dismiss it like you do is reflexive contrarianism imo.
Pasting this Marx quote again (my bold added), basically him saying the same as you:
War on the German state of affairs! By all means! They are below the level of history, they are beneath any criticism, but they are still an object of criticism like the criminal who is below the level of humanity but still an object for the executioner. In the struggle against that state of affairs, criticism is no passion of the head, it is the head of passion. It is not a lancet, it is a weapon. Its object is its enemy, which it wants not to refute but to exterminate. For the spirit of that state of affairs is refuted. In itself, it is no object worthy of thought, it is an existence which is as despicable as it is despised. Criticism does not need to make things clear to itself as regards this object, for it has already settled accounts with it. It no longer assumes the quality of an end-in-itself, but only of a means. Its essential pathos is indignation, its essential work is denunciation.
I mean if you can’t even properly identify the implications of a simple case like Epstein, then I’m not surprised you didn’t understand a word I said all those months ago, which unlike the simplicity of the Epstein case, did involve some hard-boiled thinking
There is a shitton of street organizing going on rn like I’ve never seen. Nobody is talking about Epstein. Epstein is not making liberals reconsider guns and band with neighbors to jam federal agents. Epstein did not make a general strike happen with 2 weeks planning or put 100k on the streets of Minneapolis.
You understand things can compound, it’s not one or the other, I never claimed 100k went on the streets of Minneapolis because of Epstein, but it’s ridiculous to assert the average American isn’t paying attention to the Epstein leaks or that they don’t care about it, polls show the opposite, discourse all over social media shows the opposite
The average American viewing the ruling class as pedophiles is a boon to organizing and the socialist movement in general, even while some are organizing directly against the fascism that is gunning people down in the streets
The indirect influences of radicalization isn’t something to just be dismissed out of hand
This degree of noise around Epstein is not helpful. There are a million bits of info easily forgotten in the flood of a million more, and all of it is way too easily individualized.
How’s mamdani doing bud? Everything you dreamed of?
Nice dodge, let’s get back to you not understanding basic theory
Congratulations, you have unlocked Russiagate: Israel Edition - yet somehow more liberal. The ruling class has a class interest in operating the way it does. The idea that some puppet master is controlling things is the most liberal take imaginable and totally anti-marxist.
I never claimed Israel is the all powerful puppet master, I said they’ve actively compromised a large swathe of the US capitalist class, which partially explains why the US state takes a maximalist position toward the puppet state that is Israel
The puppet can have agency and class interests of its own that lead it to undermine the puppet master in certain arenas, even tho the US maintains ultimate control in the end by weight of its infinitely larger control and access over the global capitalist system
Your narrow mechanistic interpretation of class just led you to overlook one the most crucial aspects of class; which is how it socially manifests and how that manifestation impacts the allocation of capital beyond the textbook imperatives of the circuit
The manifestation is this case being capitalists utilizing pedophiles for blackmail and acquisition of leverge
Real basic shit
let’s get back to you not understanding basic theory
You are one of the best examples of dunning-kruger I’ve seen on this site, and there have been plenty to choose from over the years. Arguing with you is pointless because you have no humility or ability to consider your position might be wrong. Positions which coincidentally always seem to overlap with whatever is popular with radlibs at any given moment. You might want to think on why that might be.
This post was simply presenting an argument that maybe (just maybe), as the US government executes people in the street, as they prepare regime change in iran, as living conditions for workers around the world collapse, there are better things communists could be doing with their time than obsessing over Epstein on the internet - and you are so incapable of being receptive to even light critique of your positions that rather than sit and consider such a thing, you find the need to jump in and defend the revolutionary strategy of epstein baking with all your heart, as in our prior interactions over Mamdani.
I look forward to hearing your reports of the dozens of people you have radicalised into communism using this epstein/mamdani strategy out in the real world - surely an inevitability given your invincible grasp on historical materialism.
don’t want to stir stuff up, just want to mention that i have made a big dent on people’s belief in the liberal order by doing nothing but factually showing them bits of the depraved shit our lords are up to.
for reference, the fascist pundits over here briefly shit on chomsky then SHUT UP about it.
Yeh fair, and I think like I said in the OP, depending on who you’re talking to, the epstein angle could be a good avenue to attack with. I just think we should be cautious with the sort of QAnon style investigations going on. It’s gonna be enough for most people for us to just say “and look at that epstein shit! These billionaires don’t deserve their power”
You being needlessly hostile and trying to browbeat people into agreeing with you is making me not want to listen to you, just FYI
I’ll do my best to carry on with the burden of this knowledge weighing upon me
I can’t believe I’m doing this unironically, but your argument is mainly just an ad hominem. You’re not arguing against what is being said, but who is saying it.
In the sense that this critique of capitalist is too narrow and does not in fact include some of the other prominent figures (such as Bezos and Zuckenberg, at least to my knowledge), it is indeed insufficient in criticizing capital as a whole. Moralistic critiques are great supplements to systematic ones, but can never take their place. They can certainly be introductions, but you’re not going to get anywhere if they cannot accept the central thesis of capitalist exploitation. Especially with a guy such as Chomsky being in them, who sure as shit is not much of a capitalist (although most certainly a radlib). You’re not exactly discrediting anarchism if you point that out. You’re also not going to find someone such as Dick Cheney on the files, even though we know he’s an evil piece of shit. Sure they have all the power to be the most morally depraved evil bastards, but that is inherently not a characteristic of capitalist production. This certainly isn’t the “mother of all radicalizing catalysts”, rapid economic deterioration is, which is why economism was so widespread in the Russian worker’s movement, particularly with the Mensheviks.
Also the whole compromising thing with Mossad is a bit unconvincing considering that Trump is constantly in the files yet nothing has actually happened to him. Nobody cares about compromising material in the form of someone’s dick pic or moral depravity, except for Starmer and his weird spy camera obsession I guess.
The capitalist class is not a monolithic entity; it is factional and tied to various concentrations of capital that settle around specific forms of commodity production and arbitrage (the Oil Barons, the Tech Lords, Wall Street, Legacy Media etc.) We’ve born witness to the exposing of a major decades old intelligence operation by the CIA and Mossad to utilize pedophiles for the purpose of blackmail and leverage, ensnaring a wide assortment of capitalists and capital supporters from a wide pool of factions
This reality is born right out of the unpunished criminality of the CIA and the state/capitalist self-preservational logic of the settler-state of Israel; this is an operation that took conscious advantage (proven by the most recent released files) of the fall of the Soviet sphere, kidnapping and trafficking young girls from Russia and Eastern Europe for the sake of political networking
This operation didn’t require the ensnarement of every single capitalist on earth to work, they simply needed some of the most powerful, and they got all the ones they went after, because your assessment that capitialist production doesn’t lead to moral depravity is incorrect, to be a capitalist is to devalue the lives of workers and their families, to set aside humanity to keep the circuit growing, the capitalists are human who through the pressures of competition and the imperatives of capitalist produtction transform themselves into anti-humans just to keep afloat
This is precisely why the moralistic vs. mechanistic binary is bunk theory no matter which side you fall on the binary
Also the whole compromising thing with Mossad is a bit unconvincing considering that Trump is constantly in the files yet nothing has actually happened to him
Trump broke containment in 2016 to become the avatar of carbon extraction capitalism, and he’s done nothing that would warrant Israel challenging his status and the question you should be asking is why would they risk it anyway? You think the Israelis would risk alienating the MAGA base anymore than they’ve already done? Blackmail doens’t have an infinite shelf life
The capitalist class is not a monolithic entity; it is factional and tied to various concentrations of capital that settle around specific forms of commodity production and arbitrage (the Oil Barons, the Tech Lords, Wall Street, Legacy Media etc.) We’ve born witness to the exposing of a major decades old intelligence operation by the CIA and Mossad to utilize pedophiles for the purpose of blackmail and leverage, ensnaring a wide assortment of capitalists and capital supporters from a wide pool of factions.
No, of course they’re not monolithic in the sense that they all realize surplus value in the same form. However, the profit of the bankers, rentiers, merchants, industrialists etc. all rests on commodity production and the realization of surplus value. This attribute of capital generally, standing in contradiction with that of labour in general, is why we’re opposed to capital. Yes, all the people caught in this scandal all wield some sort of power, but that power in and of itself does not automatically assume that someone will stoop to that depravity, which is why I mentioned Bezos and Zuckenberg.
This reality is born right out of the unpunished criminality of the CIA and the state/capitalist self-preservational logic of the settler-state of Israel; this is an operation that took conscious advantage (proven by the most recent released files) of the fall of the Soviet sphere, kidnapping and trafficking young girls from Russia and Eastern Europe for the sake of political networking.
And since I’m going to assume we’re talking about the radicalization of the american working class (since this is affecting the american political scene the most), that is not going to be realized by pointing out the exploitation of Easter Europe. It can only be realized by directly pointing to the contradictions inherent between capital and labour in America (although considering imperialism, who knows if a true radicalization of the working class in America is even good, let alone possible). The Russian, French and Chinese peasants certainly didn’t rise up in arms because they were appalled by the treatment of Native or African Americans.
This operation didn’t require the ensnarement of every single capitalist on earth to work, they simply needed some of the most powerful, and they got all the ones they went after, because your assessment that capitialist production doesn’t lead to moral depravity is incorrect, to be a capitalist is to devalue the lives of workers and their families, to set aside humanity to keep the circuit growing, the capitalists are human who through the pressures of competition and the imperatives of capitalist produtction transform themselves into anti-humans just to keep afloat
And that’s exactly why it is not the “mother of all radicalizing catalysts”! It is not an all systematic, all-encompassing critique of capital as such, but rather a moral failing of a certain group of capitalist (and even non-capitalists). Sure you could say it leads to moral failure in the way you described, but it is not definitively and absolutely so. The capitalists aren’t practicing their evil laugh, they all equally think they’re saving the world whilst lowering wages. It also doesn’t take a capitalist to be a piece of shit, thus the concept of “good billionaires” for the liberals. And again, at the end of the day, morality is completely subjective based on the country, as well as the time in human history and the advancement of human development.
Trump broke containment in 2016 to become the avatar of carbon extraction capitalism, and he’s done nothing that would warrant Israel challenging his status and the question you should be asking is why would they risk it anyway? You think the Israelis would risk alienating the MAGA base anymore than they’ve already done? Blackmail doens’t have an infinite shelf life.
The mistake is assuming Trump’s policies are the result of blackmail, rather than the presupposition of him coming to power in America. Kamala and Biden too, enacted Israeli interests despite not being apparently compromised.
This is a great post and worded better than I could
The site went down right after I posted this, the admins are trying to keep us from the truth, RELEASE THE DOCUMENTS 👁️
the hextein files
Wasn’t me, I was writing a dm when the server hamster took its union mandated break
7·10 days agoWasn’t me either. I’m saving my monthly allowance of cable for later.
ⓘ This user is suspected of being a cat. Please report any suspicious behavior.
I think the fact that it is so bad and involves people on “both sides” of the mainstream liberal consensus is an absolutely amazing agitprop opportunity. This is going to disillusion a lot of people from across the middle part of the ideological spectrum. Being able to hammer the fact that the ruling class is made up almost entirely of Draculas who are all secretly friends doing despicable shit with each other despite the public kayfabe is a great opportunity.
Is it important to be informed? Yes. But everyone needs to keep their guard up. I saw an instagram reel saying that Epstein, believed himself to be superior to other races because he was jewish (instead of because he was a zionist, and had a psycho-sexual need to justify his pedophilia on supremacy and domination grounds). Other social media posts have made comments like “the schizos were right!” This is how you end up with multiple satanic panics against free child care in your state.
Knowing every intricate detail of the files is not gonna do anything if these people are still in power. The first priority is to abolish the system that allows rich people to own private property and, by some sick twisted extension, the ability to own children.
I think the worst possible thing to lead a potential radicalisation candidate into would be the Epstein rabbit hole. There’s a 50/50 chance they start “doing their own research” and end up becoming a straight up nazi
The nazis have been in full force. It’s horrific.
The lesson here is that wealth inequality and the power of the bourgeoisie is so ludicrous that they can actively do the worst crimes conceivable with complete impunity and even when the crimes are brought (mostly) to light and everyone knows that the entire government either is pedophiles or actively covers for pedophiles but our political system offers us no course of action.
I just find this discouraging, personally
It’s discouraging unless it is propagandized as another piece of evidence for the failures of capitalism. Barbarism or socialism
My issue with people obsessing over it, as is my issue with a lot of things, is a lot of missing the woods for the trees.
99% of libs I know are suckered into “oh yeah but once we prosecute the named people everything will be fine” and not “this is a systemic issue maybe we should consider forms of society that prevent that kind of consolidation of sick power.”
That being said, I still think it’s a good radicalisation moment. It’s just one that needs seizing on and framing correctly.
encouraging stochastic anti-pedo rightwingers on twitter is a funny and worthwhile pursuit, of course it doesn’t matter in some sense. Squeaky clean elites would do exact same shit to people and countries
*you can also preface any liberal talking point (say by summers or british labor or macron) by proximity to pedos, which also wastes their brain cells
It’s like Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon, but for Adobe Acrobat Portable Document Format files
associating epstein with
might push some liberal zionists overI’d advise against making it the crux of your argument, TBH. The hardest proof of Epstein working for Israel is Ehud Barak’s relationship to him and Robert Maxwell having been a spy for Israel. That’s not very hard evidence. The proof of Israel being a genocidal apartheid state is infinite.
oh yeah it’s hardly the main thing wrong with settler-colonial genocide.
It’s mostly an online thing anyways. People doing left-wing stuff in real life aren’t randomly bringing up Jeffrey Epstein.
i mean we do chat about it, it’s interesting. It’s just not what we’re organizing around and focusing on
Yeh i get that. But i’m still saying like, instead of endlessly digging down this rabbithole online at least read a book or do some community mapping of your local area or your workplace or something.
I’m not so sure it’s an online niche thing. My lib friends have brought up in person how wild it is to see (for example) Bill Gates implicated. And then there’s the whole talking point that anything Trump does is at least in part to diatract from the Epstein files.
I’ve also seen it crop up in online spaces like sports forums. Still online, but definitely not niche.
i can probably respond more to this once my brain warms up, but for now i’ll just say that we should take every single opportunity possible to spread agitprop against capitalists and this provides an incredibly large opportunity
It is funny to see the meltdown on rightwing anti-semitic spaces (such as /pol/) if you can stomach lurking in them. They are actually in existential despair that they’ve been sheep led around by pedophile zionists. It’s good for a laugh
I don’t see the epstein stuff as a path to any kind of working class power, it’s more just a grim symbol of our times. A slice of life of modern capital. Good as an anecdote and example, not good as an obsession.
There is literal organizing and radicalizing happening all across the country due to ICE, and Epstein is sucking the air out of the room. This is intentional
