Was this movie any good?
How insane to you need to be to think the ancient Greeks didn’t know about Africa? literally all of art history comes down the the Egyptians and Greeks teaching, learning, and reteaching each other art skills over the course of centuries.
Black people were invented by Woke Hollywood in the year 2019 AD in order to ruin movies.
Americans are so weirdly racist. Both Europe and Africa are along the Mediterranean. From the southern most point in Greece to the North most point of Africa is less than 400km. The whole region of North Africa and Southern Europe is an ethnic melting pot dating back 1000s of years.
But regardless of that, it’s Mythology - not a documentary. I’m not looking to be “immersed” in American racism. I have zero issues with the cast representing the world I live in now, because it was made in the world I live in now, and features the people I live with now.
Americans are so weirdly racist.
As are Europeans. Look at the Danes for example and thier protect our couture immigration polices, whites only under another name. Germans just now having another nazi moment, Italy and the fall and current rise of Mussolini like politics. Then lets not talk of Poland and Hungary etal
Apparently the justification is “North Africans look white.”
These people geniuenly think melanin is binary and the blackest person from Tunis still looks Irish-American.Don’t tell the Americans that Romans were Latin, they’ll invent a time machine to bring ICE to ancient rome
It would be funny as fuck watching ice getting eaten by lions and bears in the arena.
I haven’t watched the movie, but I would imagine Africans is pretty common around Greece?
What’s that big ol’ thing lying there on the Mediterranean? Oh, its Africa.
North Africans aren’t black though. I don’t think they were during Ancient times either
Oh fun history time!
Especially a couple thousand years ago, the Sahara was far smaller, and far lest hostile to life. The last trees only died in the Sahara about 20 or 30 years ago. Caravans crossed regularly. On top of the very easy route from Sudan to Egypt, and the Greeks were obsessed with Egypt. Even the Bible talks about Nubians in Ancient Egypt, so if even that as a “source” knows about the well-documented reality that Sub-Saharan populations were in contact and well-known individuals present in North Africa and the Levant as far back as 5,000 years ago.
I mean, did you not even think to search for this before spouting off? Literally the first search result for “did black people greece”:
Edit: meant to paste this link - my bad - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Greeks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Greeks
gasp
people migrate and stuff?
bewildered
Why didn’t the Greeks build a wall? Are they stupid?
They did but people kept sneaking in on giant wooden horses
“See! I told you that we could get them to pay for the wall!”
“That’s very good sir, but still, what the fuck are we supposed to do with all these giant wooden horses? And isn’t it suspicious that they drop off a new one every day?”
“Fake news! We have the most, the biggest and the best giant wooden horses! We’ll give them to our giants wooden cowboys to ride! Just yesterday a giant wooden cowboy, the biggest wooden cowboy you have ever seen, came up to me with tears in his eyes, tears just streaming down his wooden face. And he said thank you!. Thank you for the giant wooden horses! Until you we had nothing to ride and had to chase the giant wooden cows around on foot.”
They did, actually. To keep the Ottomans out. Didn’t work (spoiler).
They also did that with the Persians, though instead of bricks they used Spartans.
And to add on to your point about the Sahara being less hostile, it used to be filled with life.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_humid_period
This period ended right around when recorded history begins. Because the Sahara was not hostile it created a corridor for plants, and animals, and people to make an easy crossing into the levant and then further into Asia and Europe.
Yeah, it’s wild how there’s just a 5cm thick layer of salt down under the sand, and mining salt slabs from the ancient sea is how most nomadic groups flavor their food.
Plus all the rock art and ancient cities just out in the middle of nowhere today. I once bought a dinosaur tooth from a guy that 1) agreed with claims I had heard that the mountains in the Sahara still harbor things like peach trees, and 2) that there are badlands style areas where herders just find dinosaur bones lying around.
…the first search result being about a community that in its largest part started existing in 1923 is relevant to ancient history?
I mean I don’t know enough about ancient demographics to comment on whether there would feasibly be more than an extremely tiny minority of sub-saharan africans in ancient greece, but claiming someone didn’t search and then providing an irrelevant search result has a certain irony to it.
That’s my bad, I had 2 links open in 2 tabs and copied the wrong one.
Thanks, now I know a little more about ancient greek demographics! Well it still seems to be mainly about greeks in africa, but some exchange both ways seems inevitable when it’s that prominent.
It goes both ways. Ultimately, it’s that the Greeks (and Romans) were obsessed with Egypt, and Egypt was in direct and lasting contact with the Nubians (modern Sudan) and parts of modern Ethiopia because they were farther up the Nile.
So we’re confident that black people did in fact greece.
It’s well-documented that black Greeks did.
It’s on a long term cycle 50kyears ish where it goes from green to dry.
Well, it was.
Might get to see it sooner this time. If the Atlantic current that brings warm water up to the Baltic sea stops, it could mean more rain in Africa (and more ice in Europe).
I said North Africans weren’t black. Are you perhaps mistaking me for the person in the OP? Because you’re seemingly going after points I’ve never made
Your link is about modern Greece btw. Did you read it before posting?
I pasted the wrong link, which is my mistake - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Greeks
And I’m not confusing you with OP, I’m explaining that North Africa was not bordered on the south by an impenetrable desert and that thinking only North African peoples were in Ancient Greece really mid-understands geography and proximity to Africa and the commonality of trade along the Nile. Going east, Ancient Buddhists started depicting Shakyamuni Budda as a human figure and not an empty space under a tree directly as the result of Greek philosophical exchange. Buddhist “missionaries” are accounted for in Athens and the Levant more than 2000 years ago.
Ancient Greece was a pretty cosmopolitan place for the ancient world.
Your link is the opposite situation to what we’re talking about. It is talking about Greeks in Africa, not (sub-Saharan) Africans in Greece.
African Greeks, or Greeks in Africa (Greek: Έλληνες της Αφρικής), are the Greek people in the continent of Africa. Greek communities have existed in Africa since antiquity.
Ancient Greece was a pretty cosmopolitan place for the ancient world.
Right, I’m just saying the contacts were more common with North Africans, who weren’t black. But there were contacts for sure. Depends on who the black person is portraying if there’s any cause for the outrage.
There were plenty of sub-Saharan African people in Ancient Greece.
Do you happen to have a source for there being plenty?
I don’t know about how many would have lived in Greece, but they’re definitely in the tale of the Trojan War. There’s a whole poem, Aethiopis, starring them. The original text is pretty much entirely lost, but we do have a Roman-era summary of it to give us the broad strokes. Aethiopians show up in other stuff too; Perseus fights a sea monster there, for example
I’m aware of that, I don’t understand the complaint if the character is supposed to be Ethiopian or the like.
But the source for there being plenty of black people in Ancient Greece I’d still like to see since it sounds like a pretty interesting claim. I hope the other person delivers.
Ahh, fair enough. I hope so too, I’d be interested to read that. I can believe there would be at least some, because there was definitely steady contact between those two parts of the world at that time, but I don’t know specifics
Yes, I’m sure there were a few at least but “plenty” sounds dubious. Of course I’m not sure what they meant with “plenty” here. But we’ll see when they come back with the source
Define “plenty”.
The ancient Greeks didn’t care about skin tone in the modern sense, so there isn’t some racial census data like we have now.
https://lucas.leeds.ac.uk/article/skin-colour-in-ancient-greece/
They make trivial to find references to black people and depict them in the manner they depict themselves in art.
Because their division was not “Greek” and “black” but “Greek” and “not Greek”, they simply didn’t document it.
Aristotle describes the ideal skin tone as halfway between an Ethiopian and a woman.Black people were quite literally unremarkable to them, so it’s pretty easy to argue that an ancient Greek wouldn’t find it odd to travel with a black person.
I think I’d like the person who made the claim to tell us what they meant with “plenty”. A reference here and there to there having been a black person in Ancient Greece doesn’t feel like it’s proving the claim, but they might’ve meant just that when they said “plenty”.
they simply didn’t document it
That makes it sound hard to prove
Alright, demonstrate that the demographics are as you assert they are. I’ve shown you that they’re depicted in their arts and culture, both as they depicted outsiders and as they depicted themselves, as well as that they had unremarkable interactions with Ethiopia and beyond.
The link also details the history of using the racial composition of ancient Greece for all manner of racial weirdness that wasn’t representative of the Greeks themselves, up to and including Internet race weirdos who get bent out of shape about a black person being depicted in a movie set in the Mediterranean.At this point you’ve been given plenty of evidence that there sufficient numbers of dark skinned people that it wasn’t remarkable. If you disagree that it would somehow have been remarkable, or that this isn’t a perfectly workable definition of “plenty”, then show some reason why beyond “well everyone knows”.
Hell, demonstrate that there were plenty of white people.You’ve shown that Greeks had connection and knew about black people but that wasn’t disputed… The claim was that there was “plenty” of black people in Ancient Greece. Connections to people being in Ancient Greece aren’t the same…
I’m not sure why you are taking the burden of proving someone else’s claim but you’re now trying to spin that burden to me to prove it the other wat around. That’s just silly.
Why not trust the other guy to make their case?
Yes, we have plenty of sources for colored cyclops during ancient greece.
Oh it was a cyclops they were portraying? Then the complaint makes no sense tbh
But I honestly want a source on there being plenty of black people in Ancient Greece. I’ve never heard of that before
they weren’t white either. and black Africans were well known to all of Africa and the Mediterranean FAR further back than written history. Greeks aren’t even white, as far as you want to use “white” as some kind of identification, it’s useless other than as a racist concept to harm other people, but the most generous inclusions are pretty fucking difficult to include Greeks in. dark skin, woolly hair, blunt noses, a language distinctly outside European language roots. you got nothing.
I didn’t talk about anyone being white though
Sorry, man, I thought this was about that film and the actors in it, and their ethnicity. my bad. didn’t realize you were having a no context argument unrelated to this entire fucking thread.
No worries, but yeah I was just talking about the stuff I actually said
North Africans had trade routes going all the way into modern day Tanzania, and a big chunk of modern day Sudan used to be part of Ancient Egypt. The Iliad itself mentions people from Sudan.
North Africans did, right. But we’re talking about black Africans.
Tbh the whole thing depends on what the character is trying to portray. If it tries to portray everyday normal Ancient Greek, yeah that’s an issue. If it is meant to be someone from Ethiopia, something like that, yeah no issues.
Unless the trailer shows what they’re portraying (and imu the movie isn’t even out yet) then the complaints are premature.
Like Aethiopians that are literally in the Illiad? Maybe Homer was woke too. /s
There were some black people in the Mediterranean in ancient times. Egypt even had dynasties led by black people.
Europeans didn’t find about black people suddenly in the 14th century.
Are they portraying someone from Ethiopia or just some regular fella from Ancient Greece? That makes all the difference. Like said, if the trailer doesn’t tell, it’s premature upset.
Nobody is debating existence of black people here lol
They portray a mythical creature. Take your meds.
What mythical creature is the black person portraying? I haven’t seen tg the trailer/movie
Take your meds
No need to get emotional
Like they literally exist in Greece today.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudanese_Greeks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_Greeks
Ignorance isn’t a sin, but you’re not even trying.
Like they literally exist in Greece today.
today
Uhh we’re talking about Ancient Greece…
Did you read the articles? Guess not.
These small communities are direct descendants of the ones from ancient Greece.
I don’t see where the article mentions that these are direct descendants of people who moved to Greece in ancient times? Both articles seem to talk about Greeks in these other countries…
“How dare this work of fiction not be my interpretation of historically accurate?!”
That’s sorta their complaint yeah
And my complaint is that that is a stupid fucking child’s complaint.
Corey has provably got a reaming over it on Twitter hah
What’s most immersion breaking is that they put pants on the Greek soldiers.
And the Viking ship
Pants on a Viking ship…?
I’d kinda like to see that.
Like this?
Or like this?
A riddle more intriguing and mesmerizing than Theseus’ ship
The jeans wherein Theseus and the youth of Athens returned from Crete had thirty rivets, and was preserved by the Athenians down even to the time of Demetrius Phalereus, for they took away the old denim as they decayed, putting in new and strong patches in their places, insomuch that this jean became a standing example among the philosophers, for the logical question of things that grow; one side holding that the jeans remained the same, and the other contending that it was not the same.
The true mpv of this entire thread.
The second one. The boat is meant to represent a dragon, just without the appendages, and the second one is where its back legs would be. Could also have a pair for up front, I suppose.
That begs the question if pants are a “back legs only, not front legs”, or “legs only, not arms”.
Taking it to the extreme, would pants for a centipede look more like a tube with “sleeves” all along it or just like a tiny pair of normal (to us) pants?
This was under the assumption that it’s a 4 legged dragon. If the theoretical front appendages are arms, no pants up front. Although thinking about it again, with no junk to protect, front pants are kinda useless, so maybe don’t bother with them at all.
I’d say for any animal with multiple legs that are very close together, no pants at all would be best. At that point they’d be more of a hindrance than a help!
i say the dragon wears 'em like a bib, because the dragon is cool like that
Pretty sure nobody wore pants in ancient greece. The real greeks still don’t wear pants.
Yes, and because, as everybody knows, black people didn’t exist until modern times. 😒
They were officially invented in 1612 when the politically correct baron Du le penii of asswipe got high and said white girls have no ass, so he invented black people!
This is a joke but honestly not that far off
Interesting, sad, and no surprise. From the linked article:
"Role in the History of Racist Ideas
In the 21st century, the work of Zurara has been re-examined for its foundational role in the development of modern racist ideology. Historian Ibram X. Kendi, in his 2016 book Stamped from the Beginning, argues that Zurara was the world’s first racist because his chronicle was the first to articulate a comprehensive defense of the African slave trade based on the concept of Black inferiority.[12] Kendi posits that Zurara’s writing was not the cause of the Portuguese slave trade but rather a product of it; Prince Henry’s economic and political self-interest in the trade of enslaved Africans came first. Zurara was then tasked with creating a narrative to justify these policies.[13] According to this view, Zurara’s chronicle established a powerful and enduring justification for racism by portraying enslaved Africans as savages who were being civilized and saved through their enslavement, thereby creating racist ideas to rationalize pre-existing racist policies.[14]"
I have nothing to say.
What about all the Gauls/Celts they cast as Greeks? Complete immersion break. :P
Don’t they know the ancient Greeks didn’t have film technology! How can I watch this?
Africans in the Mediterranean is only immersion-breaking if you’re the kind of stupid cunt that cares about shit like this
Someone certainly didn’t do all that well at their history lessons. If Memnon led an ARMY from Aethiopia to the siege of Troy there might’ve just been …say, a few people of different fucking complexions mucking about in the immediate aftermath of said siege.
Not to mention all the trade going on for centuries in those parts.
…and also, yeah, a Cyclops is just fine because it happens to be the right color, right?
But this is otherwise a complete dealbreaker, is it? What the fuck? (I mean, I know it’s just a racist piece of shit spewing idiocy, but still, what the everliving fuck?)
Homer’s IliadThe Epic Cycle that Homer’s Iliad is part of literally has an Aethiopian (Sudanese) army in it. It is also a plot point early in the Odyssey that Athena manages to get Zeus to let Odysseus actually go on the fucking odyssey because Poseidon is away in Aethiopia and therefore can’t objectEdit: misremembered which poem Memnon was in. The Iliad does contain references to Aethiopia, but Memnon and his army star in a different part of the Trojan War story
I don’t know what characters the black people being complained about are. Are they characters from modern Sudan, Ethiopia etc or are they meant to be regular Ancient Greek characters?
I don’t know, my point was more just that there are absolutely plenty of black people in the relevant literature
If the person is portraying one of those I don’t really get the complaint
There were absolutely black Greeks who were not just recent jmmigrants because humans move around constantly and no area has ever been 100% anything. Sure, overwhelmingly something, but never 100%.
I don’t think what’s being talked about is there having ever been a black person in Ancient Greece but if that black person is meant to be just a regular Greek dude or something.
They might be portraying an Ethiopian person who came to Ancient Greece for whatever reason. And that wouldn’t be super extraordinary.
You do know greeks don’t look pale white, right? 90% of the Celtic looking actors are too white to be accurate Ancient Greeks too by your “everyone looked same back then” logic.
And their nose structure completely different too! Immersion ruined.
I’m not sure who was talking about pale white. The whole thing was about a black guy being in the movie. I don’t even know who they’re portraying
I am saying an Irish looking person would also be equally immersion breaking as just a regular Greek dude by your logic.
I’m not the one who made the Twitter post but yeah could be?
That’s funny, bc too many racist ppl ruin my immersion in life
They ruin my fantasy that most people aren’t hateful and cruel.
I know, right?! I’m used to when people see Nazis they get shot. They tell me now it’s unrealistic expectations from playing all those WWII games where you shoot them.
Uh yeah, a white giant cyclops, duh
There’s no sight of Michael Caine in the credits. This breaks immersion for me: I can’t believe it’s a real Nolan movie without Michael Caine. Every Nolan movie needs to have him or Cillian Murphy at the very least, ideally both.
