- cross-posted to:
- exchristian@lemmy.one
- cross-posted to:
- exchristian@lemmy.one
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All religions are shit, some are more shit than others. Just depends on the degree to which they impede human progress by imposing arbitrary rules on their followers, offering a haven for abusers within their leadership structures and interfering with politics in general (but particularly where education policy is concerned). Negative value across the board.
100% agree.
Hijacking the top comment to suggest everyone read the book The Dark Side of Christian History by Ellerbe. It’s really good. It’s super short but does a great job highlighting how at every point in the Church’s history, whenever they had to make a decision, they always followed whichever direction led to more political and social power for the church at the expense of spiritual enlightenment, justice, truth (obviously), or human lives.
I read 1984 at the end of last year and man it’s crazy how much Orwell basically described life under the Church during the Dark/Middle Ages at the height of it’s political power.
Christianity is not inherently better than Islam, it just behaves better nowadays.
And the reason it behaves better is not something inherent to christianity, but because it got dragged, kicking and screaming, into the age of enlightenment and beaten up with education, democratisation and secularisation until it had to bend or break and it’s adherents decided to bent.
Islam is still more radical because it faced less opposition to it’s ideas from within. The islamic world needs it’s own age of enlightenment where radical tensions between religion and an educated public reduce the influence of religion on that public.
And I don’t think this has much to do with Islam being younger. Islamic natural philosophers are behind some of the most important discoveries in the sciences and the Islamic Golden Age ended around 200 years, before the Renaissance even started.
If the Islamic Golden Age had not declined, today Christianity might have been the more radical religion and we might have seen a mostly secularized islamic world. It is mostly through chance that history unfolded differently. And with Project 2025 in the US, we might still see a return to barbarism and departure from secular enlightenment in the most powerfull nation puppeteered by christian extremists.
It doesn’t behave better. It’s coerced into being less harmful than it used to be, due to its irrelevance in the daily lives of millions of people coming from places with a Christian history, and more secular legal frameworks, which, you’re right, where fought for tooth and nail.
Give Christianity a finger, and it’ll take the whole arm. It’s still as dangerous as it’s ever been, but it’s more contained than it used to be. Cf Poland, France, the Southern US, Russia on issues like abortion, feminism, LGBT rights, and even geopolitical stuff like the support of Israel thought to be a step towards the apocalypse.
The Southern US Y’all Qaeda types are proof that Christianity is just as backwards as Islam is, when given the opportunity.
Edit: I’m not opposed to you, I’m just adding more thougts to yours. Sorry if this sounded adverserial.
It doesn’t behave better. It’s coerced into being less harmful than it used to be, due to its irrelevance in the daily lives of millions of people coming from places with a Christian history, and more secular legal frameworks
Oh absolutely, that’s how i meant it. 100% agree.
Not the OP, but you’re not coming across as adversarial. Those of us who aren’t wedded to an identity over common sense can disagree without feeling attacked. However, I don’t disagree with you. Everything both of you said is true, with your comment making both more true, if that makes sense.
I took my partner to a catholic church to check out the ceremony (she’s from a non-christian country). We’d toured it before because it’s very grand and impressive from an architectural standpoint. I try to view it through her eyes, as though for the first time (I didn’t grow up catholic, but I’d been to many varied-christian masses). What a bizarre ceremony. Any people consider it completely normal. This reflection has nothing to do with the original topic. It’s just something that crossed my mind as I typed this out.
Islam will be much harder to reform because it claims to be THE FINAL revelation. There is no-one allowed to come with new ideas because of that. Add to it the barbaric penalty for leaving the religion and you’ve got a hot mess.
All religions are shit, but Islam is worse at its present state.
All religions are shit.
What atrocities have mainstream Buddhists participated in? I know there have been Buddhist terror groups but it really doesn’t seem like the norm. Aggressive and greedy people use religion as a tool, some religions are more likely to engage in violence than others though.
I doubt you’ll get a response. You’ve made your position clear in your statement: any actrocities referenced will be declared an act by a terror group outside the norm.
i mean, to some degree, any act of terror can be deemed outside the norm specified. I think realistically. As long as a group has a tangential terror rating lower than the average human populous that’s probably a good thing.
What do you mean, how is that even a position? There have been crusades lead by Christians numerous times though, Islamic conquest, Jewish Zionist terror groups, a lot of history to be referred to, when within Buddhism it is much rarer. One historical tale is of Ashoka, a powerful emperor in the Indian subcontinent who supposedly after converting to Buddhism spent most of his efforts spreading teachings about kindness and non-violence. Buddhist principles of harmony and non-violence helped unite Japan, bringing about relative peace after centuries of conflict.
Buddhists in Tibet have been involved in perpetrating atrocities, both against each other and individuals of other religions. The historical context reveals instances of violence and oppression within Tibet, including the feudal serfdom system that subjected serfs to harsh conditions and exploitation by their owners, who were often monks and aristocrats.
Moreover, the involvement of Buddhists in violence is not limited to Tibet but extends to other regions as well. For example, during the Cold War era in Southeast Asia, Thai Buddhists were complicit in anti-communist mass killings under a nationalist ideology that aligned with Buddhism’s principles. This involvement in political violence highlights how Buddhism has been weaponized by political authorities to consolidate power. The history of Buddhist violence underscores the complex relationship between religion and politics, showcasing how religious beliefs can be manipulated to justify or incite acts of aggression. Some notable examples include the mass killing of Ajivikas in India, the violence in Myanmar against Muslim Rohingyas.
I guess what you were trying to say was that Buddhism wasn’t as powerful as Christianity to reach the scale of Crusades.
You are correct that what I said could just reflect the fact that Buddhism hasn’t reached the same level of political consolidation as Christianity. But there have been Buddhist empires throughout history.
You do point out another aspect that I was reflecting on though, that these religions are used as tools by nationalists or other political authorities. In my view it is not the religion itself that enables or supports these atrocities but the centralized power that these organizations are able to hold. Human societies have had religion for all of known history so it is difficult to thoroughly prove that these societies would be more or less violent without religion of any type. If they didn’t have a religious group driving the masses to be pawns of their violence, it could be a trade group like the Dutch East India Company.
Myanmar.
“I know there have been Buddhist terror groups but…” the joke writes itself 😂
Buddhism has extremely good PR, but ultimately it is just that: PR. You can find messages of peace, compassion, and violence in plenty of religions to higher or lesser degrees, but as soon as they become large enough to be politically relevant, one leader or another will resort to violence sooner or later, and will take advantage of their followers’ faith to justify it.
As for Buddhism specifically, this is a good start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_violence#Regional_examples
In ancient China, Buddhist organizations also had a history of annexing land, oppressing people, and competing with secular governments.
I left the church so i could do shit like this tho
Hey, how you doing?
“Many religions now come before us with ingratiating smirks and outspread hands, like an unctuous merchant in a bazaar. They offer consolation and solidarity and uplift, competing as they do in a marketplace. But we have a right to remember how barbarically they behaved when they were strong and were making an offer that people could not refuse.” - Christopher Hitchens
That’s the leather flag they’re flying
Heh. Got me!
Religion has always been a tool for conservatives to wield power over normal people.
You say that as if conservatism has always been. Its a relatively recent phenomenon. Religion, at its earliest historically, has been a function of community; and essential service to strengthen a community’s bonds. Eventually it was used by the ruling class as a guise for divine right, to legitimize the power of those in power. Then it has evolved into what it is today, a cash grab. Of course this is very surface level, but my point still stands.
Considering their respective ages, hard line Islam is pretty much up to what Christians were up to in those days.
LOL, this was literally an argument in favor of Nazis in the Soviet “17 moments of spring” series. We are a young ideology and movement, why do you judge us so harshly…
Islam will be judged by the same measure as everything else, by which it’s an infection (mostly, Nizari-Ismaili guys are chill).
See when you start debating history, that’s just weird. What I said is a fact, Christians 500 years ago were doing horrendous things. All religion is bad.
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Why is it that being on the internet turns people into complete pieces of shit. Would you really call someone dense in the middle of a scholarly debate in a face to face setting? No, cause you know that doing that sort of thing makes you a garbage human, yet here you are on the internet being a garbage human and you think it’s acceptable.
homie we are on lemmy, shitposting about religion being bad to humans. This is anything but scholarly. Go write a dissertation on it.
I also wasn’t “debating history”.
Would you really call someone dense in the middle of a scholarly debate in a face to face setting?
No, but in the middle of a scholarly debate I’d be able to express many things with my face.
But… Islam is older than Christianity…?
Islam is technically 1400 years old in the way Christianity is technically 2000 years old.
Modern Islams and Christianities, it’s more complicated.
Huh, TIL! Thanks for the info!
Hey, yo! Here’s a fun one. Jesus is a side character in Islam. Isn’t that rad?
Rad or mediocre retconning?
I think it’s an homage to George Lucas. It rhymes.
Muhammad died in 632 C.E
Nah, Mohammed came out and claimed that although Jesus was indeed a prophet his word was somehow corrupted, hence Islam.
Christianity 2: The Dune Messiah
Nope islam is the successor to christianity, so it has to come after
All religions are or have the potential to be completely shit. End all religions.
If you think Radical Islam is alone I’d like to introduce you to Ireland and India. Both countries proving that radicalism transcends race and culture.
Radical Buddhist monks in Myanmar fomented a genocide. I always point that out when someone says Buddhism is the one good religion or whatever.
Indians are committing Genocide on Muslims. Somethig something blame Islam.
1
There are still certain forms of Christianity, that are equally as bad as “radical Islam”.
Yes, following the famous doctrine of atheism.
I’ll remind you the only thing tying atheists together is the lack of belief in god(s). Besides that, nothing has anything to do with atheism
And this community. But aside from those two things, nothing else.
There is one difference:
The Spanish Inquisition killed less people in 300 years than Islamism every single day.
Guess you didn’t expect the Spanish Inquistion?
Are you forgetting the genocide commited by the ultra orthodox Spanish in South America? Have you ever been to Buenos Aires? Super long flight only to end up in the whitest European city ever. Oh and also, what about the total killings until today just by US made mines and shrapnel in Southeast Asia? Doesn’t even come close to whatever number you had in mind for “Islamism”.
Since when is the US the Church? Oh, wait…
Both are shit but at least one of them grew up a little and stopped doing this shit
Not a big student of modern history, are you?
“Srebrenica massacre, slaying of more than 7,000 Bosniak (Bosnian Muslim) boys and men, perpetrated by Bosnian Serb forces in Srebrenica, a town in eastern Bosnia and Herzegovina, in July 1995. In addition to the killings, more than 20,000 civilians were expelled from the area—a process known as ethnic cleansing. The massacre, which was the worst episode of mass murder within Europe since World War II” source
The christians were committing so many murders of non-christians, because they were non-christians, NATO intervened to protect the non-christians.
Linking to the serb / Bosnian war is kinda cheating.
That’s an absolutely atrocious event, which indeed was caused by christians, no doubt. But that whole region was awash with every possible flavor of violence.
Well yes religions tend to throw areas into waves of violence.
In fairness, it’s also just a tool to justify the violence against others. “No, I don’t want your territory, that would be bad. I want to follow God command, and if there’s riches by accident…”
That seemed clear when I first learned of European imperialism. We learned about Spanish conquest of the new world, we would study their reasons for going to the west. Quoting the period they would say they needed to spread religion, but also that there happened to be a fabled city of gold that they had to find. It’s no different today. Authoritarian governments will use whatever means to spread their culture and dominance. Religion is a convenient tool, if properly studied though how can it actually justify any atrocities? Every major religion has specific guidelines about not killing innocent people, not doing ‘evil’, helping the needy, etc.
In fairness, it’s also just a tool to justify the violence against others. “No, I don’t want your territory, that would be bad. I want to follow God command, and if there’s riches by accident…”
Did NATO intervene in NK in 1992 when muslims were killing christians? No, cause those muslims were feral cousins of Turkey, and Turkey is part of NATO. Just in that case christians got lucky and managed to defend themselves.
I think you suck at modern history too.
Please look at the thread title, the post I responded to, and then ask yourself if your response applies.
Applies to statement I was answering.
Okay, I’ll explain your error.
@Jimmydean1366@lemmynsfw.com was referring to christians that “stopped doing this shit”.
You said:
Did NATO intervene in NK in 1992 when muslims were killing christians? No
So how does your comment refute that christians “stopped doing this shit” when I posted the historical reference to Bosnia? Your comment doesn’t. What other people besides christians is irrelevant in this line of conversation. Your comment about muslims doesn’t apply. We’re not playing “but others did it too!” I was responding directly to the comment about christians still doing this.
You could’ve said that without being a dick.
Oh get off your fucking high horse mate. That was some of the tamest shit ever, oh no they pointed out the user was ignorant of the topic they were talking about and didn’t mollycoddle it in a layer of feel good compliments, the fucking horror.
And than you come along and call them a dick.
You’re absolutely right, and for that I apologize.
I get frustrated that people make strong statements denying the suffering of others. However, because of how I said it, I’m sure I create more friction that needed. Thank you for calling me out on it. I’ll remember this in the future and try to hold my frustration in check.
It’s not that religion got better, it became weaker. And at this point there a lot of people in the West who don’t subscribe to it hard enough to ignore attrocities. It’s important to know it’s not individual faith, it’s institution that kisses, sloppy style with corporations and governments and supports or even inspires their agenda. Islam in the East could be powerless just like christianity elsewhere if it wasn’t married to power-hungry reactionary governments. And even buddhists, who has a white-as-a-bedsheet reputation in the West, did a genocide of muslims in Myanmar. At this point I believe even My Little Pony can become the proclaimed reason for genocide and torture if some congregation of power and force put it on as a mask. And it’s a shame that most sceptics who aren’t into that BS are less centralized, cooperative, than religious shmucks by their nature.
It actually got better before it got weaker. All those Catholic institutions we tie to the bad parts about Christianity in mass culture (a-and in Sabatini books, et cetera) were actively and productively working against barbaric shit, also influencing legal practices in non-religious matters as a result.
I upvoted your opinion as a legit one, but I don’t really agree with that. Even after christianity got somehow okay, we had these fellow christians massacre american natives and roping indians to cannons en masse as they were thought of as barbarians. Even in Iraq, Chechnya, Afganistan, there were still traces of this dehumanization not only by racism, but by religion too. At least that’s what I’ve heard from soldiers who served in these places themselves. It’s hard to rationally dissect religious hate from racism, but they usually go hand in hand now. We won’t, hopefully, slay another thousand of white Yugoslavian people over it, but for brown persons it’s an open question. Still, at least some progress.
we had these fellow christians massacre american natives and roping indians to cannons en masse as they were thought of as barbarians.
Which Catholic clergy was formally protesting all the time, expressing horror and disgust in official documents etc. Islamic religious authorities are now, today, at best split on what ISIS was doing.
It’s hard to rationally dissect religious hate from racism, but they usually go hand in hand now.
Yes, it’s just that among “brown people” non-Muslims are more often victimized by Muslims than vice versa.
I understand that in historically Christian societies people want to clear their own conscience first, and American Christian supporters of Israel are a good example of how it looks when they don’t, but Islam is a bigger problem than Christianity.
Comparatively, yes, even for themselves, but we had a bad time trying to meddle in their politics and are partially responsible for another wave of radical uprising.
Is it though a correct way to view everything muslim as bad and christianity as miles better than this? Giving christianity an unequal treatment is asking for some MAGA shitheads to overturn another handful of human rights. They are insane bigots who use religion as their tool too.
Yes, it’s just that among “brown people” non-Muslims are more often victimized by Muslims than vice versa.
That’s known, right. In my lovely country ch3chen forces even steal people on the streets if they are dare to speak up, if they don’t want to marry a picked partner or god-forbid if they are gay. If it wasn’t allowed by my own federal gov, they couldn’t have stolen a poor girl from fucking Moscow that’s not heard of for a year+ after that. But it’s not even on ch3chens, the inaction and enabling of our own forces if what makes me angry the most, as with other governments exchanging political prisoners with insane states.
and are partially responsible for another wave of radical uprising.
Not sure if “partially” is even needed here, mohajeds are Muslim Socialists sired by the USSR and the West initially, who grew out of control, Al-Qaeda were sired by the USA and grew out of control, Ba’ath (Arab NS give or take) was born of many things, none particularly Arab or Muslim.
Something very basic, barbaric, simple and universal for that part of the world had to emerge.
Is it though a correct way to view everything muslim as bad and christianity as miles better than this?
No, but this principle shouldn’t be tied to constants anyway.
If it wasn’t allowed by my own federal gov, they couldn’t have stolen a poor girl from fucking Moscow that’s not heard of for a year+ after that.
They have kidnapped people from Armenia in the past. Recently there was a news article that another such attempt failed, but the beginning was pretty wild - over some connections or acquaintances girl’s uncle simply told some people in the Armenian police to arrest her and they fscking did.
And I think I’ve read about Chechens being kidnapped even in the EU.
But it’s not even on ch3chens, the inaction and enabling of our own forces if what makes me angry the most, as with other governments exchanging political prisoners with insane states.
Russia is one country in the world where minarchism (the second letter is “i”) would be absolutely for the best. Faking of everything seems to be so ingrained in the society that only a Darwinist mechanism can help.
Christianity was FORCED to stop this bullshit, because otherwise it’d fracture into even more different doctrines than it already has.
One is the single largest pedophile ring in the last 2 millenia.
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