Why yes, I have noticed the pre-election uptick of posts like this designed to prep the masses to slavishly vote for whatever do-nothing Biden/Kamala/Hillary joke candidate the establishment will be choosing for us next time. If Kamala won we’d all be having brunch right now, right?
Gas would probably still be under $3/gal, so I’d be more willing to drive and get brunch, yes.
Also the brunch wouldn’t have salmonella, and the side salad wouldn’t have explosive diarrhea.
But you’re right. It would be pretty bad. I don’t this she would give me a free pony, nor would she dissolve the state in favor of an anarcho-syndicalist commune.
Meanwhile all the people in America who have suffered systematically for decades would continue to suffer systematically. No denying things would have been great under Kamala for people who were privileged all along.
If the people suffering systematically is a constant between the two options, then how is it relevant to the choice? Rational people make choices based on the differences in outcomes between the options.
Haven’t we seen a significant uptick in the systematic suffering of historically suffering people under this administration? Between “the status quo” and “worse than the status quo”, isn’t the status quo the best short term solution if you actually care about the people who are suffering? Is their suffering reduced in any way because you make a principled stand against the status quo?
It seems like you’re just feeding marginalized people to fascists in exchange for getting to say you didn’t vote for the neo-lib. I don’t see how that helps the marginalized people, seems like something a privileged person would do because they can afford to not care about the result of elections.
If the people suffering systematically is a constant between the two options, then how is it relevant to the choice?
This is like saying “if my infected wound is going to sting whether I leave it alone or put disinfectant on it, then how is it relevant to the choice?” The answer is that one of the choices, while still shitty and possibly even more painful, creates the possibility for a better future despite the present.
Voting for the corporate neolibs IS what makes more fascist candidates viable. Not voting for them is what forces the party to offer legitimate opposition to fascism and representation of the lower class. Yes, abstaining makes things worse in the short term, in exchange for the possibility of making things better in the long term.
The only reason Trump was ever a viable candidate is because of people using your reasoning being unwilling to take that short term bitter pill for the last 40 years.
It seems like you’re just feeding marginalized people to fascists in exchange for getting to say you didn’t vote for the neo-lib.
I love when people trot out this argument, because it’s exactly what you’re doing, on a LARGER scale and in a subtler way than you accuse me of doing.
I didn’t skip voting so I could win some community respect. It’s not exactly a popular stance (unlike yours) in case you haven’t noticed. I did it despite the economic, safety, AND social consequences because I truly believe it was the only way to make the possibility of a better future.
The answer is that one of the choices, while still shitty and possibly even more painful, creates the possibility for a better future despite the present.
I have the right to decide to suffer the sting of disinfectant, it’s my body. I don’t have the right to condemn others for the sake of political expedience.
Not voting for them is what forces the party to offer legitimate opposition to fascism and representation of the lower class.
No it doesn’t. When has it ever done that? Typically it just pushes them right to try to get more centrists.
Vote for the leftists in the primary. That’s what forces them. You don’t appeal to them, you annex them.
Not voting is literally doing nothing. It is not the crystal clear communication signal you think it is, it’s literally nothing.
Of course, they’re still suffering under Trump, and now they get to pay twice as much for gas. Maybe the explosive diarrhea provides an alternative, rocket-powered form of transportation?
I’m also sure that you give a great many fucks about the poor and the downtrodden. The bigliest of fucks.
I give more fucks than you since I was willing to make my life worse in order to create the possibility for an eventual actual turnaround in the Democratic Party. And lo and behold we now have the most progressive representation in nearly a century in New York - even then with an uphill battle against the establishment. Meanwhile you were only willing to vote for the person that would maintain your personal comfortable status quo, everyone else be damned. Keep on projecting “bigly”, clever boy
Well, it would have also maintained the status quo for the people of Iran. Which by extension would probably have maintained the status quo for people in Lebanon, Syria, parts of the West Bank…ya know, greater Israel.
I’m sure those 100-150ish elementary school girls in that one Iranian school, not to mention thousands of others, are moved by your suffering.
Moved rapidly into multiple pieces, then collected and moved to a graveyard, that is. They thank you for your sacrifice, certain in your heroism.
I made it up? It must have been a hallucination when all the people who didn’t vote for Kamala for her stance on the genocide in Palestine were called “purity testers” who were letting the “perfect be the enemy of the good”? Come on. Don’t act like you aren’t aware of this. It was one of the biggest contributors to her election loss and one of the issues that vote-abstainers are most constantly criticized for. I just made it up? You’re fooling nobody.
And how has that strategy been working in America since the 80s for you? Let me guess, we just need to suck it up for a few more decades… Just a few more candidates we don’t really like. How many years before we get to vote for someone that we actually like, in your estimation?
Holy fucking cope. This country is and has been lost to fascism and authoritarianism for a long fucking time. Fuck, most people were raised and conditioned (I.e. propagandized) to believe what you commented here. I’ve been on this earth damn near 40 years and EVERY election has been the so called “most important election of our lifetime.” And to be honest me, the person you’re replying to, and the majority of this country have FUCKING HAD IT with the swinging pendulum. Fuck your lesser of 2 evils bullshit, that’s led us nowhere but down the path of evil and greed. We (the USA) get whatever is coming to us. And believe me when I say it will likely be worse than Trump.
Why do you people always do this? You get told that doing this one specific action, which you slavishly insist upon - despite it only ever making things worse, does not work; and you somehow take this to mean “do nothing at all.”
You keep dishonestly insisting that leftists say you should do nothing and that the leftist critique is somehow that any incompability is reason enough not to vote, when the reality is these posts always end up with people pointing out that there’s a bunch of stuff to do and the democrats are the same as the republicans - not just sort of slightly a tiny bit not good enough.
If youre gonna do this bullshit, at least represent the other side honestly.
My solution is to build community and ground as many people to the reality of the situation as I can. Something I actively work on with friends and neighbors. I’d say that has more of an impact than “voting blue no matter who” ever did.
And if I follow your strategy, I’m seriously asking here - how many years before I get to vote for president for someone that I actually like? Like let’s say Mamdani - how long do you think it’ll be before I can vote for someone like him for president, according to you? I don’t wanna be called a perfectionist or a dreamer here, because I’ve specifically picked a real elected person.
2 years, in theory, if enough people spend it organizing and crafting a real movement too strong to ignore, big enough to kick down the doors and make it happen. Longer if they don’t, never if they won’t.
Thanks for at least allotting some probability to me being genuine. The one thing I can’t stand these days is people acting like everyone who disagrees with them is doing it in bad faith.
I am not sure what exactly you’re suggesting, though.
But we also know that neoliberal Democratic Party elites offer a tepid vision of “inclusiveness” that refuses to challenge the oligarchic nature of U.S. society.
Seems more in line with what I’ve been saying than what you’ve been saying, honestly. It’s certainly agreeable to me, but if this is an organization you feel a kinship with…I can’t help but feel that the kinds of memes I often see you posting are contrary to their goals. Unintentionally, I believe. Honestly, most of the left-divisive content I see in Lemmy comes from you in particular, to the point that when I see some of these things I think “did Godric post this? Oh, yep”.
I’ll always keep reconsidering what actions I can take. Hope you’ll do the same
I’m suggesting you find your people and drag the american people left in a tangible way. I will take any useful ally in the fight against fascism, cheers to a moment of understanding!
I firmly believe"Electorism bad" and “both sides bad, a month before election day” jagoffs are useless or stooges for redcaps, so I will continue to mock them. I genuinely hope they prove me wrong and do something constructive.
I genuinely hope they prove me wrong and do something constructive.
They already are. You’re the one insisting the only possible solution to ascendant fascism is to keep doing the things that made Fascism a viable strategy for men who seek power.
Hold your party accountable and force them to be better, even when the other party is getting worse. It’s the only non-violent way out of this.
So step one is you talk about how you shouldn’t complain about having to eat the elephant and nothing can change and that people shouldn’t complain. Then you force feed people shit while giving the elephant a gun.
Whining and shaming over people being unhappy with the bullshit response the Democrats have in response to the kleptomaniac fascists running the country isn’t helpful.
People should be fucking pissed and they should be doing the work to help their communities. Food not bombs, getting involved locally. Voting for anyone that is for ranked choice voting.
What they don’t need to do is constantly wag their finger about how you have to vote blue no matter who after the blue just lost the easiest fuckig election in history
I don’t prefer a leap forward, the planet fucking requires one. It is melting lol
And the Democrats are like a pause in the walk forward and rarely an actual step. They just put a nicer face on their horrors and usually do better for the imperial core
I’m not an accelerationist but trump has really got a lot of people to wake up to the fact that it truly is socialism or barbarism right now.
Personally, I don’t have the stomach to sacrifice others for political gain
Unless those others are brown kids in the third world, Black men in prison, or undocumented, amirite?
Bcs if you’re still seriously saying that voting for Kamala Harris was objectively better than abstaining or voting third party then you absolutely were willing to throw those people under the bus for political gain.
Once again, the people who are going to suffer either way do not affect my choice. But this administration has been objectively worse for the undocumented, so I’m not sure what your point is. Abstaining and voting third party helped this anti-immigrant administration win.
voting for Kamala Harris was objectively better than abstaining or voting third party
It objectively was. Neither abstaining nor voting third party helped those people, and now more of them are suffering than would have under the Harris administration. Based on the logic of abstainers/third party voters, they’re the ones throwing people under the bus to try to “send a message” to the DNC.
voting for Kamala Harris was objectively better than abstaining or voting third party
It objectively was
I guess if you’re one of the privileged managerial class in a major city, that’s true. (For the record that describes me, and my personal situation probably would be much better inse a Harris administration)
For most people the differences are a lot less stark.
Or are we pretending that ICE appeared from a misty portal on the morning of 1/20/25?
That Harris wasn’t beating the war drums with Iran and campaigning to Trump’s right on immigration?
That there was ever any chance a Dem administration was going to hold Trump and his enablers accountable for their actions?
Bcs if you’re judging Democrats by their rhetoric instead of by their record, then you’re not a serious adult worth having this conversation with.
Which is great if you’re not one of the victims of the barbarism I guess. Personally, I don’t have the stomach to sacrifice others for political gain.
They said as they bemoaned people not being willing to vote for a genocidal fascist (who probably wouldn’t increase the price of gas as much).
Seems like you’re very comfortable with sacrificing others for political nothing though.
A genocidal fascist was going to win either way. This one seemed more genocidal from the outset, and the last two years corroborates that.
It’s not about the people who would have suffered either way, I can’t presently do anything about that but I’m trying. It’s about all the extra people who are suffering now: immigrants in death camps, victims of slashed social programs, the dead Iranians on the other side of that expensive gas.
I can’t save Palestine right now. I lack the leverage. But I could’ve helped save many of the others, and you could’ve too. It works better together. Don’t get distracted by the horrors you can’t fix, focus on the ones where you can at least slow the bleeding
Why yes, I have noticed the pre-election uptick of posts like this designed to prep the masses to slavishly vote for whatever do-nothing Biden/Kamala/Hillary joke candidate the establishment will be choosing for us next time. If Kamala won we’d all be having brunch right now, right?
I would have been able to afford brunch right now yes.
And all the people who never could still wouldn’t have. Yay status quo! (Especially when I’m the one well off in that status quo 🤓)
AMERICA WAS ALWAYS GREAT, amirite fellow kids?
I’m homeless.
Edit: apparently these people dislike the homeless.
and you’d be able to afford brunch under Kamala?
Gas would probably still be under $3/gal, so I’d be more willing to drive and get brunch, yes.
Also the brunch wouldn’t have salmonella, and the side salad wouldn’t have explosive diarrhea.
But you’re right. It would be pretty bad. I don’t this she would give me a free pony, nor would she dissolve the state in favor of an anarcho-syndicalist commune.
Meanwhile all the people in America who have suffered systematically for decades would continue to suffer systematically. No denying things would have been great under Kamala for people who were privileged all along.
If the people suffering systematically is a constant between the two options, then how is it relevant to the choice? Rational people make choices based on the differences in outcomes between the options.
Haven’t we seen a significant uptick in the systematic suffering of historically suffering people under this administration? Between “the status quo” and “worse than the status quo”, isn’t the status quo the best short term solution if you actually care about the people who are suffering? Is their suffering reduced in any way because you make a principled stand against the status quo?
It seems like you’re just feeding marginalized people to fascists in exchange for getting to say you didn’t vote for the neo-lib. I don’t see how that helps the marginalized people, seems like something a privileged person would do because they can afford to not care about the result of elections.
This is like saying “if my infected wound is going to sting whether I leave it alone or put disinfectant on it, then how is it relevant to the choice?” The answer is that one of the choices, while still shitty and possibly even more painful, creates the possibility for a better future despite the present.
Voting for the corporate neolibs IS what makes more fascist candidates viable. Not voting for them is what forces the party to offer legitimate opposition to fascism and representation of the lower class. Yes, abstaining makes things worse in the short term, in exchange for the possibility of making things better in the long term.
The only reason Trump was ever a viable candidate is because of people using your reasoning being unwilling to take that short term bitter pill for the last 40 years.
I love when people trot out this argument, because it’s exactly what you’re doing, on a LARGER scale and in a subtler way than you accuse me of doing.
I didn’t skip voting so I could win some community respect. It’s not exactly a popular stance (unlike yours) in case you haven’t noticed. I did it despite the economic, safety, AND social consequences because I truly believe it was the only way to make the possibility of a better future.
I have the right to decide to suffer the sting of disinfectant, it’s my body. I don’t have the right to condemn others for the sake of political expedience.
No it doesn’t. When has it ever done that? Typically it just pushes them right to try to get more centrists.
Vote for the leftists in the primary. That’s what forces them. You don’t appeal to them, you annex them.
Not voting is literally doing nothing. It is not the crystal clear communication signal you think it is, it’s literally nothing.
Correct.
Of course, they’re still suffering under Trump, and now they get to pay twice as much for gas. Maybe the explosive diarrhea provides an alternative, rocket-powered form of transportation?
I’m also sure that you give a great many fucks about the poor and the downtrodden. The bigliest of fucks.
I give more fucks than you since I was willing to make my life worse in order to create the possibility for an eventual actual turnaround in the Democratic Party. And lo and behold we now have the most progressive representation in nearly a century in New York - even then with an uphill battle against the establishment. Meanwhile you were only willing to vote for the person that would maintain your personal comfortable status quo, everyone else be damned. Keep on projecting “bigly”, clever boy
Well, it would have also maintained the status quo for the people of Iran. Which by extension would probably have maintained the status quo for people in Lebanon, Syria, parts of the West Bank…ya know, greater Israel.
I’m sure those 100-150ish elementary school girls in that one Iranian school, not to mention thousands of others, are moved by your suffering.
Moved rapidly into multiple pieces, then collected and moved to a graveyard, that is. They thank you for your sacrifice, certain in your heroism.
Wait, I thought the suffering of third-worlders was NOT supposed to be a deal-breaker for Kamala fans? 😂
No, I think you just made that up to justify creating more suffering at home and abroad.
I hope you’re proud.
I made it up? It must have been a hallucination when all the people who didn’t vote for Kamala for her stance on the genocide in Palestine were called “purity testers” who were letting the “perfect be the enemy of the good”? Come on. Don’t act like you aren’t aware of this. It was one of the biggest contributors to her election loss and one of the issues that vote-abstainers are most constantly criticized for. I just made it up? You’re fooling nobody.
You know how you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.
It’s better to take constant bites, no matter how small, than vomit up everything you’ve eaten in 20 years while you imagine being done.
You can keep waiting for perfection, but it probably won’t be here before damnnation.
And how has that strategy been working in America since the 80s for you? Let me guess, we just need to suck it up for a few more decades… Just a few more candidates we don’t really like. How many years before we get to vote for someone that we actually like, in your estimation?
Never. These are already his preferred candidates and he just wants you to shut up and eat your slop like a good little boy.
Vote in a primary. This election is either the rise of the DSA, or they’re seen as unelectable and curtains.
Holy fucking cope. This country is and has been lost to fascism and authoritarianism for a long fucking time. Fuck, most people were raised and conditioned (I.e. propagandized) to believe what you commented here. I’ve been on this earth damn near 40 years and EVERY election has been the so called “most important election of our lifetime.” And to be honest me, the person you’re replying to, and the majority of this country have FUCKING HAD IT with the swinging pendulum. Fuck your lesser of 2 evils bullshit, that’s led us nowhere but down the path of evil and greed. We (the USA) get whatever is coming to us. And believe me when I say it will likely be worse than Trump.
Your solution is to throw your hands in the air and cry defeat?
Crying helps nada, If you don’t like it, please do something about it. Make another option a valid option; Put up, or shut up.
Why do you people always do this? You get told that doing this one specific action, which you slavishly insist upon - despite it only ever making things worse, does not work; and you somehow take this to mean “do nothing at all.”
You keep dishonestly insisting that leftists say you should do nothing and that the leftist critique is somehow that any incompability is reason enough not to vote, when the reality is these posts always end up with people pointing out that there’s a bunch of stuff to do and the democrats are the same as the republicans - not just sort of slightly a tiny bit not good enough.
If youre gonna do this bullshit, at least represent the other side honestly.
My solution is to build community and ground as many people to the reality of the situation as I can. Something I actively work on with friends and neighbors. I’d say that has more of an impact than “voting blue no matter who” ever did.
And if I follow your strategy, I’m seriously asking here - how many years before I get to vote for president for someone that I actually like? Like let’s say Mamdani - how long do you think it’ll be before I can vote for someone like him for president, according to you? I don’t wanna be called a perfectionist or a dreamer here, because I’ve specifically picked a real elected person.
2 years, in theory, if enough people spend it organizing and crafting a real movement too strong to ignore, big enough to kick down the doors and make it happen. Longer if they don’t, never if they won’t.
If you are being genuine, this might be a help to you: https://chapters.dsausa.org/
Thanks for at least allotting some probability to me being genuine. The one thing I can’t stand these days is people acting like everyone who disagrees with them is doing it in bad faith.
I am not sure what exactly you’re suggesting, though.
https://www.dsausa.org/about-us/history/#founding
Seems more in line with what I’ve been saying than what you’ve been saying, honestly. It’s certainly agreeable to me, but if this is an organization you feel a kinship with…I can’t help but feel that the kinds of memes I often see you posting are contrary to their goals. Unintentionally, I believe. Honestly, most of the left-divisive content I see in Lemmy comes from you in particular, to the point that when I see some of these things I think “did Godric post this? Oh, yep”.
I’ll always keep reconsidering what actions I can take. Hope you’ll do the same
I’m suggesting you find your people and drag the american people left in a tangible way. I will take any useful ally in the fight against fascism, cheers to a moment of understanding!
I firmly believe"Electorism bad" and “both sides bad, a month before election day” jagoffs are useless or stooges for redcaps, so I will continue to mock them. I genuinely hope they prove me wrong and do something constructive.
They already are. You’re the one insisting the only possible solution to ascendant fascism is to keep doing the things that made Fascism a viable strategy for men who seek power.
Hold your party accountable and force them to be better, even when the other party is getting worse. It’s the only non-violent way out of this.
Right, like the primaries in 2016 that got rigged or the ones in 2020 that got rigged or the ones in 2024 that didnt happen?
So step one is you talk about how you shouldn’t complain about having to eat the elephant and nothing can change and that people shouldn’t complain. Then you force feed people shit while giving the elephant a gun.
Whining and shaming over people being unhappy with the bullshit response the Democrats have in response to the kleptomaniac fascists running the country isn’t helpful.
People should be fucking pissed and they should be doing the work to help their communities. Food not bombs, getting involved locally. Voting for anyone that is for ranked choice voting.
What they don’t need to do is constantly wag their finger about how you have to vote blue no matter who after the blue just lost the easiest fuckig election in history
Complain all you want, just keep nibbling! Two small steps forward is better than a giant leap back, even if you prefer a leap forward.
I don’t prefer a leap forward, the planet fucking requires one. It is melting lol
And the Democrats are like a pause in the walk forward and rarely an actual step. They just put a nicer face on their horrors and usually do better for the imperial core
I’m not an accelerationist but trump has really got a lot of people to wake up to the fact that it truly is socialism or barbarism right now.
How is that not objectively better than a leap backwards?
Which is great if you’re not one of the victims of the barbarism I guess. Personally, I don’t have the stomach to sacrifice others for political gain.
Unless those others are brown kids in the third world, Black men in prison, or undocumented, amirite?
Bcs if you’re still seriously saying that voting for Kamala Harris was objectively better than abstaining or voting third party then you absolutely were willing to throw those people under the bus for political gain.
Once again, the people who are going to suffer either way do not affect my choice. But this administration has been objectively worse for the undocumented, so I’m not sure what your point is. Abstaining and voting third party helped this anti-immigrant administration win.
It objectively was. Neither abstaining nor voting third party helped those people, and now more of them are suffering than would have under the Harris administration. Based on the logic of abstainers/third party voters, they’re the ones throwing people under the bus to try to “send a message” to the DNC.
I guess if you’re one of the privileged managerial class in a major city, that’s true. (For the record that describes me, and my personal situation probably would be much better inse a Harris administration)
For most people the differences are a lot less stark.
Or are we pretending that ICE appeared from a misty portal on the morning of 1/20/25?
That Harris wasn’t beating the war drums with Iran and campaigning to Trump’s right on immigration?
That there was ever any chance a Dem administration was going to hold Trump and his enablers accountable for their actions?
Bcs if you’re judging Democrats by their rhetoric instead of by their record, then you’re not a serious adult worth having this conversation with.
They said as they bemoaned people not being willing to vote for a genocidal fascist (who probably wouldn’t increase the price of gas as much).
Seems like you’re very comfortable with sacrificing others for political nothing though.
A genocidal fascist was going to win either way. This one seemed more genocidal from the outset, and the last two years corroborates that.
It’s not about the people who would have suffered either way, I can’t presently do anything about that but I’m trying. It’s about all the extra people who are suffering now: immigrants in death camps, victims of slashed social programs, the dead Iranians on the other side of that expensive gas.
I can’t save Palestine right now. I lack the leverage. But I could’ve helped save many of the others, and you could’ve too. It works better together. Don’t get distracted by the horrors you can’t fix, focus on the ones where you can at least slow the bleeding
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Voting for the democrats is not a step forward. Actually engage with what people are saying you disingenuous asshole.