know who never pushed AI?
Linux.
know who has fixes or useful community support?
Linux.
know who doesn’t scan your desktop every second to scrape your data?
Linux.
know who has the audacity to provide a free product and still doesn’t sell your identity to the lowest bidders?
Linux.
holy shit, it’s almost like Linux is the OS by the people for the people…
Remember: Companies don’t learn lessons, they react to profits. They’re 100% gonna boil the frog here.
They already did with 10. At this point even a funny smell is gonna rumble 'em
and this is why I use Linux. No forced AI nonsense being shoved down my neck.
I think the best way to turn people on to Linux is to give them a bootable live USB, so they can try it out. Otherwise, they have no basis for comparison.
Too many people just accept whatever Microsoft gives them, shrug and think, “Well, I guess this is just the way computers are.”
The best way from my perspective is to show them.
At tech events and meetups, I’m showing them Linux.
When my friends come over, I show them my self hosted solutions on a Linux.
At work, where we use Macs, we talk about open-source, including Linux.
I like the idea, but unfortunately most PCs don’t boot from USB out of the box. It requires a few easy steps, but this might just be enough for a lot of people not to try it.
i don’t believe it and am no longer giving them the chance to allow me to see it.
Microsoft hasn’t made a decent OS since Windows 7, why would they start now?
Agreed. 2000 was fantastic, but that was 9 years before 7. Its been 17 years since 7.
I was a big fan of XP too
XP is still good! still the only windows version that’s reverse compatible with DOS.
People have too much rose tinted vision about 7, it really wasn’t that great. I don’t see anything it does better than w11, and if you have modern hardware (I mean like 2015+) your computer is being held back by w7. Sure it’s technically more light weight but it lacks support for modern hardware and any modern computer will by choked by w7 where w11 or Linux would run significantly better.
God I still remember how many people still screamed about Windows 7 and getting rid of XP. You can definitely tell the age of people based off of what Windows OS they claim is best.
For real I cut my teeth on vista and grew up largely with w7, I can’t hold 7 on a pedestal though.
If you think that Windows 7 was overrated, you’re naive and completely oblivious to the state of Windows during that era. XP came out in 2001 and Vista in 2007, during a time personal computer improvements were exploding. That’d be like 20 years nowadays. Vista was a bloated and slow mess that even modern hardware could barely run efficiently. Windows 7 righted the wrongs and made massive performance improvements that Vista lacked, and not just for modern hardware at the time, but legacy hardware was revived.
Arguing that Windows 7 doesn’t support modern hardware is so asinine and a straw-man argument. No one was making an argument that Windows 7 is a good OS today, not a single person. What we are arguing is that every OS since 7 has been a half-baked mess with tons of bugs and annoyances.
“I don’t see anything it does better than w11”. You think the lack of unified interface is equal to windows 7? You think the disaster of a start menu is equal to windows 7? You think forced updates is better? You think the abundance of telemetry is better?
Honestly, have you even used Windows 7?
Ok but windows didn’t make a good os with windows 7. Everybody thinks 7 was so grand because after years of updates they un fucked it enough to be good. Do u remember being stuck 2/3rds of the way in a w7 install for eternity? It simply not taking and having to start over? For the first 2 years I swear to God you couldn’t use any printer with it. We kept a vista computer around because it fucking worked better till the 7 bugs got worked out. Windows 11 is now 4 years old, and I’d argue as solid as w7 was at that age too (if we look past the shoving unneeded crap down your throat bit that all can be disabled if you’d bother). I don’t remember the early days of vista as that’s what I grew up on, but early w7 days were rough too. I’m just trying to say that I don’t remember a non half baked os being released from windows, not sure what you think im trying to straw man here.
Yeah nah mate i do not recall a single issue you’re citing here. And i was literally sysadmin for a uni rolling it out at the time.
Sure, in some cases you had to do a little more driver work as they cut the “must natively contain drivers for fucking everything” mindset that caused XP to have such a massive footprint, but they were easy to install after the fact
Yea u can be ignorant all you want but windows 7 was a buggy mess on launch and no amount of nostalgia is gonna change that. Yes windows 7 wound up polished, but just because you fanboy over it with the rest of the echo chamber in here doesn’t negate the fact that it was a steaming pile on launch that u couldn’t even upgrade to from vista without nearly bricking your computer. Maybe u rolled it out on all new computers or something but it was quite buggy for at least the first 2 years until updated dozens of times. I have never had to fresh install w10 or w11 or Linux over stupid bugs and crashes and BSODS, but i remember having to do fresh installs several times with w7 in the earlier days.
I’m a bit confused by your criticism. Windows 7 came out in 2009, Windows 8 came out in 2012. And your criticism of Windows 7 is that it doesn’t run great with modern hardware? Microsoft not optimizing an old operating system for new hardware when it’s focusing on a new version, to me, isn’t a reflection on the quality or design of the old operating system. To me that’s like criticizing DOS for being limited to 640kb of memory. It was designed for the hardware available at the time.
There’s a threshold that you pass and once you do there’s no going back because the trust is lost forever and customers will go the next chance they get.
It looks like this is finally the point we might have reached with windows.
The Trust Thermocline
Yes that, thanks!
That was my reaction when I read about them pulling copilot and such. I think it’s probably the reaction of every software nerd.
Too little to late… I already left and fell in love with Linux
Welcome! Isn’t it a breath of fresh air to use an OS that isn’t trying to turn your computer into an advertising and upselling platform? It has its issues, but it’s a huge relief to escape the constant inundation from Microsoft.
(Obligatory: I use arch BTW)
Fucking Arch Users – The Tesla Owners of the Linux World
But thankfully with no Elon
Welcome to the club buddy! we’ve been waiting for you!
Same here. Got fed up after every damned update to subscribe to this, want to setup backup to cloud, setup office. Switched to Linux and now not a single subscription popup in sight. It’s been bliss. Spent the weekend with the misses sorting out 30 years of photos and getting to know exif editor 🫣
[edit] exif not exit editor.
My games work, most are better than on Windows. Microsop has noting to offer but ads and malicious bloatware.
Same here, only 9 years ago. On the not so bright side, every few months I go in a distro hopping frenzy for a day or 2 but it’s fine, since any distro installed takes me at most 15 minutes.
Exactly
No they aren’t. They don’t care.
Windows 11 felt like a downgrade before all the AI bs. Microsoft values me more as an advertising opportunity than a customer.
I had avoided it until late last year when I had to reinstall a friend’s borked install after it had somehow managed to shred its registry hives.
Holy shit. That installer is an embarrassment. First it couldn’t get past the first reboot until I found out that you can set it to use what looks like the Windows 7 installer for the first steps. Then I had to deal with a dog slow installer that needs half a dozen reboots for some unfathomable reason. Then an endless cavalcade of sales prompts, including one for an Office subscription where they try to hide the price from you. All to end in, well, Windows 11.
I simultaneously installed Fedora Kinoite on his old laptop. I don’t think the Fedora installer is one of the better ones but it was so much easier and faster to set up the machine that it was almost comical.
Seeing both systems side by side really drives home just how clunky Windows is. And how Microsoft installers are barely better than they were 15 years ago, but now they have ads.
The Start menu has gotten worse with every update. It is getting ridiculous.
I can no longer click start > type in the program I need > hit enter.
Start menu, you had one job!Well funnily enough it was already broken even in Windows 10 half of the time, was pretty infuriating. But with Windows 11 they’ve outdone themselves
I moved it to the side when 16:9 screens became popular and vertical space was more limited.
Windows 11 removed this feature.
That’s one of its jobs
Another one is to give me the option to turn my computer off but often times I would hit the off button and it wouldn’t actually turn off.
Why not? What has changed? My start menu functions just as it did in w7, the only gripe I have is that by default it tries to search Internet before PC. Simple solution: disable web search in start menu. Once u configure the w11 start menu properly it’s no different than in precious versions! It is a shame they push the suggested apps and internet search crap but once u debloat it it’s pretty much refreshed 7 with support for modern hardware.
(Not OP.) Sucks that you gotta debloat. I want to say it should be opt in for anything thats not basic function, but I think that’s too extreme. Maybe people out there find the web search function super useful, or they appreciate the adverts or whatever.
Anyhoo, even though I debloat everything like crazy from day one, i find myself debloating something new about once a month or so still.
They do occasionally try to sneak shit back in with updates. I remember w10 re installing Skype every damned update.
My roku does this shit. Pisses me right off.
You are correct, it ‘should’ function like windows 7 through 10. But back then it was a simple extension of the task bar. Now it is a bloated poorly optimised application in it own right. It lags, it crashes, it causes system CPU spikes. Whilst writing my comment I wanted to open Notepad and START went not responding for 10 seconds. Hell, taking a screen shot of it is now effort.
Is your start menu debloated? My prehistoric dual core i5 that isn’t supported for w11 that I forced install on handles it fine. You shouldn’t need to debloat it but once trim the fat it’s fine…
What sucks is - windows is the easiest to jump off. There are tons of viable alternatives.
There is nothing for mobile.
For mobile I can’t recommend Graphene enough. Freedom from Google with no draw backs.
Assuming you have self control about keeping shite apps off your mobile, fastest and most private option there is.
I’d get on graphene in a second if they supported more than one phone, and I’m not buying a damn Pixel alright. Google if you don’t and Google if you do.
Yeah I’ve heard of that, but so far it’s just rumours. Hopefully it ends up being something reasonable.
100% with you there. Would enable the less nerdy people to benefit.
Only thing holding me back is game companies not empowering stuff like battlefield
I daily drive Linux for work, just use windows to play some games in the evening
I mean. There ARE mobile os options. Just you need to have very specific phones, and they’re all old and outdated tech.
they’re all old and outdated tech.
You can put graphene os on the newest pixel if you really want. Imo, you shouldn’t be giving Google the money anyway. Makes more sense to buy an older refurbished pixel from a trusted 3rd party. The newer phones are not really major increases in tech anymore anyway. I’m still rocking a pixel 6 pro and it feels functionally equivalent to the newer phones but it’s 5 years old.
I don’t want to do anything with Google. Definitely don’t trust their hardware.
Look. Israeli child molesters waited 10 years before activating lebanese explosive pagers. I don’t trust Google just giving out free code only on their devices for some reason, as if they know there is something else on hardware level. Google lost all the trust and good will I ever had for them
Did a wtf? Looked it up; still wtf but it’s real.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Lebanon_electronic_device_attacks
Buying used still inflates the price, giving Google more money. Plus, Google is now sending you firmware updates. I like Fairphone, and there are a few ROMs you can flash onto it. But unfortunately not grapheneOS. Maybe LineageOS (without MicroG) would be the least googly, but there would still be some Google bits and bobs you’d have to turn off. /e/OS is probably a bit more degoogled, except for MicroG, which is kind of a big exception. No android is completely degoogled, it seems. There is a promising Linux phone coming to Europe soon though, the Jolla phone, and I’m hoping it gets good reviews and then comes to the US.
And lineage has pretty good compatibility too, but we’re talking about mobile OSs outside the big two, Android and iOS. In that context, the device compatibility list is significantly shorter, and even the newer phones listed are ~10yr old hardware, or if newer severely underpowered compared to not even flagship phones available 5 or more years ago.
I really really want a viable Linux phone, but the device range isn’t there, and there’s still a lot lacking in functionality. Currently what’s on offer isn’t ready for general population daily use.
Yup, and getting fewer every day.
There are some projects (postmarketOS and half a dozen people forking it for other distros) trying to get kernel and drivers worked out, Linux is still sadly lacking at a bunch of the best tricks Android and IOS use to save power (most notably freezing applications), we’ll get there eventually.
The Halium stuff +Ubuntu ports works if all you’re worried about is privacy and as you said have a supported phone.
Postmarket can’t make it through the morning on a charge. Halium is Android kernel and drivers and also has power issues if you decide to run android apps. Neither one can do anything with NFC.
But they do exist. It does give me hope that people are actively working on these projects, useless for daily driving or not. In a better timeline we’d have more than 2 properly viable mobile OS options.
Yeah, I guess I came off more negative than hopeful. Supposedly on of the big phone makers is partnering with someone doing pocket linux, and there’s Furi, Jolla and Volla. The real shining star is the EU rights causing (many/most/all?) phones there to be able to be unlocked and open to flashing. But open for the US is getting much more rare, and with oneplus’ recent hardware fuse breaking on flashing, I’m just feeling like (amongst many other things here) we’re losing the battle to privacy and open hardware.
Nah, you’re good bud 👍.
Honestly, while I am hopeful, it’s hard to be positive about the current state of alternative mobile OS. Everything not based on android feels like a proof of concept. We’re at the early adopters stage, but I can’t bring myself to get on board when there’s not really a great option. And device support, I already have my current daily driver, plus my old phone as a backup, and the phone before that too. None of which are supported by any of the projects, and even as something to play around with I can’t bring myself to buy ANOTHER phone. 🤷
I think it’s really easy for Lemmy users to assume that the general population has the same technological interest and literacy that they do.
The Windows 11 users they are talking about are from an /r/pcmasterrace thread.
The vast, vast majority of consumers don’t give a shit. They don’t care enough to even think about whether their computer is actually secure, they don’t care that they don’t own their OS, and they don’t care that AI is being shoved in.
Their computer is a magic box to them, and they don’t care to know more.
The one thing that I disagree with is that most people don’t care about AI being shoved into everything. Studies are consistently showing that the vast majority of people don’t use/hate AI being shoved into everything. 80% of phones users in one study, 90% on another study for DuckDuckGo IIRC, etc.
Fair, but they don’t care enough to do anything about it.
I am not a tech wizard. As soon as my new minipc got home with Windows 11, I installed CachyOS on it. I found out later that it’s based on one of the “difficult” Linux variants, but everything went super smoothly (I might have just been lucky. i don’t know, don’t take this as advice!).
Yes I had to follow a few instructions on creating an installation USB key. That was the hardest part. But my relationship with windows had become too abusive. I do want my computer to “just work” and let me do my stuff, but that’s not what windows is doing any longer
Arch and its variants(CachyOS, EndeavourOS, and Manjaro) are just “difficult” insofar as they usually need you to understand the basics of using the terminal, and how to look up documentation as needed.
With CachyOS, I haven’t played much with the others so I can’t speak for them, you could get away with using the GUI tools shipped by default for a long time and not have any problems.
If it works for you, that’s what matters! Difficulty is subjective, too.
CachyOS is what I’ll be jumping to. Thanks to the stupid hardware price surge, my initial plan of just buying a new stick of SSD and a bigger HDD for stuff for the move is not viable anymore. So it just takes a while because I’m making sure all the personal data I have on my only stick of SSD still running W10 is safely copied off of it. Not a lot can be done with my current NTFS formated HDD unless I want to gamble with my personal data doing partition magic (I don’t want to gamble).
I’d like to think jumping to an arch based distro with guardrails will help me learn linux safely. I’d have the cachy and arch wiki and forum to learn from.
It’s somehow satisfying to get a brand new machine with Windows pre-installed and never let Windows boot even once. 😎
I’m on EndeavourOS, which like CachyOS, is a derivative based on Arch. They smooth over a couple of the things that make Arch difficult: the installation, and initial packages.
Part of what makes Arch difficult is that it updates its repositories very quickly. That’s good in many ways, because you get new features and new drivers more quickly, but sometimes things are buggy or break. From what I’ve heard, it’s honesty fairly rare nowadays, but it’s still a best practice to check archlinux.org before proceeding with a major update.
Anyway, I’m in a very similar boat. I’ve bounced off of Linux for various reasons in the past, but between Linux getting better and Windows getting worse, Linux is the “just works” option for me. It’s not perfect, but any snags I’ve had have been smaller, less frequent, and more often fixable.
thanks for the advice on checking archlinux.org. I’m still fresh and in the honeymoon stage of this and I’m sure I’ll hit some snag at some point!
The general population isn’t even aware that Linux exists.
I’m not saying that installing Linux is something the general population is incapable of. My comment was in response to all of the people astounded that people still use Windows.
And I didn’t mean to disagree with you. I’d be sheepishly part of that general population too if Microsoft hadn’t actively tried so hard to annoy their users. Jumping ship to anything that is not “the default” that comes installed with your machine feels… refreshing after you’ve done it, but scary before.
Ah, thanks for clarifying. I didn’t think you were disagreeing, I just thought I didn’t make my point well enough (which I didn’t since I didn’t reiterate the stance I was referring to).
I do think the vast majority of users see things like copliot all over the OS, and then watch their PC run like shit, and assume it’s the new fandagled thing ruining their experience regardless of whether they care about AI or not.
Especially if they update and the entire computer is then broken, like with the recent bug where it would break particular SSDs.
That wasn’t a Microsoft issue. It was a bad driver from the company.
I’m well versed, been in IT for decades, and my only substantial gripes about 11 (when it launched) were the removal of taskbar features and the capitalism issues with the store, ads, and telemetry. And I suppose the unreliability of the OS to update itself is just fucking embarrassing.
Now with the AI BS and their fuck you, you’ll get nothing and like it attitude, I’m now actively against them. Except for farming and selling your data and not being able to reliably update eating hours of users time, I don’t really care all that much. They’re trying to be secure, they could do a lot better.
Win 10 was serviceable, apps worked, developers tested against it, it wasn’t hard to look after a herd of them. Updates were still shit, but it’s been that way since 8.
But the magical box has changed shape and change is scary.
That’s pretty much the gist of it. Human inertia is a hell of a drug.
Yes. In Windows 12.
It’s going to be massively worse in Windows 12. There is no going back for them.
