Yeah let’s fight censorship with more censorship!! Total isolation!

If you isolate the users of feddit then you won’t help them on having different views.

I’m in favor. Feddit has proven before this incident to be extremely Zionistic and Islamophobic as well.

I only would agree with defederating if it’s proven that they are blocking anti-genocide content on other servers from being visible to their users.

In general I believe that maintaining lines of communication with those who otherwise believe in reprehensible ideologies is best, both in order to better understand such backwards ideologies, and also to provide a lifeline back to consensus reality for people who’ve been swept up by them.

I also believe that in the majority of cases, users should wield the power to instance-block for themselves. Or at least, servers where this is the case are the ones I prefer to participate on.

However, if it becomes clear that feddit.org admins are censoring content external to their instance due to their support of Zionism, then my first objection becomes irrelevant, and the second would be questionable, given the efforts of admins to put external fedi content thru a pro-genocide filter. At that point, defederation would be both warranted and wise.

It is possible to be pro-Palestinian and anti-Hamas at the same time.

Similarly, it is possible to be pro-Jewish and anti-Israel at the same time.

They key is to be in favour of, and supporting, the innocent civilians that are NOT wielding hate and bigotry, and in direct and vociferous opposition to the power structures on BOTH sides that have looked true evil in the eye and said, “hold my beer and watch this”.

I am as anti-Hamas as I am anti-Israel. Both power/political structures are among the most reprehensibly evil orgs on the planet at this time.

I stand with the innocent civilians; with THE PEOPLE.

This is developing into some top tier Lemmy drama.

@CommanderCloon@lemmy.ml said:

These kind of posts will, sometime in the future, be referenced in a memorial of some sort as complacency in the face of crimes against humanity.

History will not look kindly at you.

Which is think is pretty fucking on point.

I saw that user was banned, which is a whole different level of fuckery. I got curious why the ban. It turned out it wasn’t for sticking of Palestine, it was because they had said:

I would agree with that if Ukraine didn’t have a history of murdering and bombing the regions Russia has taken.

And, of course, they were promptly temp banned for saying that.

I don’t subscribe to any communities on that instance. If you defederate, I probably won’t notice. If we can do anything that’ll even make marginally better the lives of those who have gone through so much, I support what good we can do.

If your comment contains the following, it will be removed from this community:

• Calling for the dissolution of Israel, or calling for a one-state solution without specifying equal rights for all people; Jewish in particular.
• Calling for a destruction, annihilation, an end of all Zionism or the like.
• Equating Israeli actions and (historical) Nazism.
• The slogan “from the river…”
• Endorsement of or justifications for Hamas or Hezbollah, or slogans or graphics positively referring to these organizations. These are considered terrorist organizations in Germany.
• … and obviously: Any of the common antisemitic tropes or calls to violence against Jews or Israelis

Comments will not be removed for the following:

• Denouncing genocide.
• Denouncing Israeli war crimes.
• Criticizing Zionism as an ideology or political movement.
• Referring to the current Israeli government as “criminal,” “expansionist,” or “far-right”.

pretty reasonable, admins can’t change the law.

I would go beyond this. I would say that any instance that makes a habit of policing its users’ statements to make sure they conform to some kind of politics and don’t offend whatever type of powerful grouping should get fucked.

To me, the fact that an extraordinarily obedient-in-advance reading of German law requires them to do this isn’t really relevant. The chance that the admins will get in significant trouble for it is minimal. If this is their bar for standing up for the rights and the survival of others, fuck 'em. It’s not my freedom or money at stake, so that’s easy for me to say, but I’m in the US, you could make a strong argument that being an anti-Trump pain in the ass on the internet could carry a significant risk in the future depending on how things go down. At a certain point, you have to decide what you stand for, and if your government isn’t on board for it, then oh well and let’s see.

Also: As much as I agree in particular with the disgusting nature of censoring anything pro Palestinian for obvious “bro aren’t you worried about going to hell” type of reasons, I actually don’t think anyone should be “required” to have any certain position on Palestine to participate on Lemmy. I think it’s fine if people disagree and talk about it. I think the critical thing is the admins policing what opinions people can express. If you’re going to be on Lemmy and you want to help people communicate, deliberately distorting the conversation to make it comfortable for the powerful people needs to get all the way the fuck out.

I have no particular standing to call for SDF to do anything in particular, I’m just saying my opinion. It’s maybe a little incongruous to go all the way to defederation, when there are instances that are just as shameless about censoring speech that is just as blatant an issue of “right and wrong” as the Palestine issue is. I feel like taking a step back and talking about the nature of the network and what we want to have and whether you as an instance owner have the right to police “your” users in this way. In my view, you don’t, but most people seem to feel that you do. It’s an issue that goes way beyond feddit.org and maybe should get some more thought as opposed to one-off decisions.

Fuck the zioNazis and fuck the spineless cowards that run feddit.com. Death to capitalism, death to America, death to Israel, free Palestine, and ALL power to ALL the people.

And frankly, I don’t think feddit.org deserve to be a part of the SDF community, or polite society in general. ZioNazis are exactly that, Nazis with a different coat of paint, and should be treated as such.

BUT I still disagree with SDF specifically defederating instance-wide from Feddit or literally any instance. IMO the only reason I would support SDF defederating an instance is if simply federating with the instance is technically dangerous for out instance.

Because we don’t deserve to be punished for feddit.org’s crimes by throwing away our ability to communicate with, agitate, or monitor Feddit’s users and mod team. I totally sympathize with other instances that specifically and openly curate what their users can and can’t see nuking their federation if that is what their users want. Totally reasonable. But I suspect that a lot of us are here precisely because we don’t defederate from anyone, even if they suck or deserve worse. A lot of us are on this instance deliberately because we want to curate our own feeds.

And personally, I reject the premise that communicating with a person means that I respect or endorse them in any capacity. For example, I’ve replied to various neoliberals all over the Fediverse because they said something horrible or uninformed that needs to be addressed, at least for the sake of everyone else watching. I don’t endorse or respect the neoliberal worldview, but unfortunately in the US and a lot of places we’ve ruined, neoliberalism is the “default” ideology, so that’s where discussions from any other position have to start from: rejecting neoliberalism and disproving its lies.

And as alluded to above, this is my position about neo-nazis, PDF files, cops, and ${insert any morally reprehensible group here} with respect to this instance as well.

So no, I don’t support us site-wide defederating from Feddit, just as I wouldn’t support site-wide defederating any instance unless federation somehow posed a technical existential threat to this instance. Not that they haven’t earned it, because they’ve earned way the fuck worse, but we don’t deserve to lose our ability to speak to them or monitor their monsters.

If you understood the announcement, you wouldn’t be writing bullshit like that, but you’re deliberately misinterpreting it. Either you’re a troll, stupid, or a simple hater.

As excessive as defederating an entire instance is, think about how insane banning anti-zionist speech across an entire instance is.

It’s not like its one gardening sublemmy or the diary of Anne frank guy, its an entire instance banning a specific form of antifascism. That’s unhinged and their justification is flimsy as hell.

If you wanna stay on that instance spam them with pictures of children in Gaza 24/7 until they ban you or reverse course on this decision.

It’s plainly an attempt at palestinian erasure. They decided to ban anti zionism the same week Israel announced they would be exporting 1 million Palestinians to Libya and occupying Gaza permanently. It’s not an accident, or for their safety, or German law, its genocide and feddit apparently wants to mandate it big brother style where you cant talk about eastasia.

It’s insane. Power tripping mods to a new stratosphere. Nobody should just be okay with this. Speaking for palestine without fear of being banned is one of the main reasons a lot of us left reddit in the first place. Don’t bring that shit here!

The link appears broken, so I don’t know the specifics here, but defederation really needs to be a last resort as it kinda halts any chance of the conversation going the other way too. It helps create and support the extremified echo chambers that actively cause so many of our societal problems.

If the instance is particularly problematic or exclusively causes harm, then it might be appropriate to nuke em. But it also effectively tells the entirety of Lemmy that this is not a conversation worth having, and that it is wrong (at least socially) to ever interact with these people. And, it tells the folks being defederated that whatever they are saying must be valid because it gets an extreme reaction. People are exceedingly unlikely to admit wrongdoing and change their behavior when action is taken against their community of like-minded buddies (echo chamber), they double down and become even more polarized.

I know you mentioned speaking against defederation before, and I obviously don’t fully understand the details here, but I feel like it bears repeating that defederation has to go beyond the moral opinions of any individual if we want to stave off circling the drain of overreactive garbage that places like Reddit or Twitter became.

Thank you speaking up, the double speak and lack of humanity here for Palestinians is sickening and anyone who doesn’t condemn it is complicit in helping sweep a genocide under the rug…

Banning certain actions and defederation; both are censorship and also patronization. I am against any form of censorship. There are very few exceptions, mainly malicious actions, which need to be banned to protect your users.

We all have the choice to hide certain terms, communities or servers. A much better way is to get confronted by it and actively protest to this kind of censorship. Share your views, your opinions in a non-offending way. Give the others the chance to get educated. If it fails, move on and enjoy your life somewhere else.

I know, my views are quite unpopular. But they are mine. Feel free to block me at any time.