I love you unconditionally, but only if you worship me and abide by my rules (some of which I may or may not have revoked when my son
who is also mecame down to Earth)when my son
who is also mecame down to EarthThis is what annoys me the most about people who go on about God “sacrificing” his son. Since they think Jesus is now in Heaven, that means God got him back - when you don’t normally get something you’ve sacrificed back. God didn’t really “sacrifice” Jesus, he basically just sent him off to summer camp. Granted, the hazing at this summer camp was a bit extreme, but whatever.
It’s like Batman can go toe to toe with people with actual superpowers because he devotes every second of every day to training and preparing for his Batmaning, but whenever anyone suggests that Bruce Wayne would be able to do more good with his money than by punching people in the face we suddenly find out that he also devotes every second of every day to philanthropic efforts. The important thing is that your favourite imaginary friend is always right and is the best at everything, logical coherency be damned.
“My son went down to Earth once. I don’t know what you people did to him, but he hasn’t been the same since.”
And all to basically deal with red tape that he put there himself. And somehow, sending his son and then the son getting lightly tortured and then murdered with a slow death by humans saved humanity? And people today still believe that bad writing?
And some even reject the actual decent parts because they’d rather hate their neighbours and church establishments enable this because they’ve really just been another angle to gain power and wealth over and from the people respectively and basically just say, “you’re good as long as you accept a world view that puts me into a position of spiritual authority”.
I mean, the guy is all knowing. That means he knew, back when he created Adam, that this moment would come. He could have changed 1000 things. Yet he chose this particular order of things leading to the ‘sacrifice’ of Jesus.
There’s just so many plot holes when you make a fella omniscient.
It’s the same reason Superman movies are so fucking boring.
I love you unconditionally but I might just torture you while you are alive because I am in a pissing match with the devil.
I am all powerful, buuuut anything bad I guess the devil got the better of me. Oh and I don’t step in when, y’know, genocides happen, or disease—basically, I’m a very hands-off benevolent god…insomuch that my benevolence knows only the bounds of basically chance. If something good happened? You’re welcome. Something bad? Keeeep prayin’ biiitch!
Being raised in a Christian household, this was one of the things that I first picked up on as a kid, and the adults did not like my line of questioning about it. In my teens, I learned that hell isn’t even a concept in any Jewish or “Christian” scriptures… it’s purely a holdover from Hellenist Rome perpetuated by Ur-Catholic Roman cults monopolizing and institutionalizing the religion. You can imagine how pointing these things out went over in a religious household and circles.
Something pinged at the back of my mind and wondered before what is so bad with eating the apple of knowledge. Everyone loves to have knowledge, right? The fall of Adam and Eve from the garden of Eden also sounds so strikingly similar from the story of Prometheus, who gave fire to humans to help themselves, but he was punished.
Now as an adult, the stories just tell people to stop thinking for themselves and surrender their agency to a higher authority and be unquestionably obedient.
this was one of the things that I first picked up on as a kid, and the adults did not like my line of questioning about it.
Children are natural philosophers. It’s because they have fresh eyes and untrained with the world that they see things that adults were taught to not see or ignore.
I didn’t save it and I wish I had. Someone did find a novel in Aramaic that mentions an idea of hell not far from the Christian idea. So to be pedantic it is found in Jewish writings but only once. It’s possible it got picked up or it is possible that it was just coincidence and got imported from Greek thought, like most of the NT concepts. Also worth mentioning that most Jews at the time didn’t believe in an afterlife and the ones that did had a very vague idea of it. This is why Paul seems to think that Jesus is the first person who has an actual afterlife.
Spot on. In Jewish thought (including Paul’s writings) there are three “heavens”. First, the sky. Second, the cosmos. Third, the dwelling place of YHWH. None of those are meant to be the a destination for any kind of human afterlife.
I liked second heaven when it was still underground. Now it is too mainstream.
-Hipster Jesus
God is either omnipotent and a dick for making you suffer anyhow, or not omnipotent in which case why would you believe?
I was born with a severe congenital issue that causes me constant pain.
Why would a benevolent god do this to me? It’s sadistic.
So I had a head start in thinking the Christian god is a sadistic bastard. The priests I encountered tried to tell me I was being tested for reasons. How do you explain testing a four year old for your faith? What the fuck did your god want me to learn?
My constant, unrelenting pain was part of what stopped me believing that bullshit. They could never explain my suffering to me, except to say I was chosen by god to endure it, like the saints. I was not a saint, and that was just cruel.
The more I learnt about it all, the more I understood it was all just bullshit. It was just stories made up by those in charge to stop regular people from questioning their rules. When your own story is used by the church to justify the stories of saints, it becomes painfully obvious.
God is either omnipotent and a dick for making you suffer anyhow or […]
Probably this one. God is canonically a dick in the bible, between “testing” that one guy’s faith by telling him to kill his son, between killing humans to full on genocide on many occasions to killing everything everywhere that one time. Even Jesus has his cringe moments, like when he killed a tree because it wasn’t producing fruit which he took as an act of rebellion against God, despite trees not being conscious (he should know, he made the damn things) and therefore not being able to rebel against anything.
Also, if you’re omnipotent, why even have a tree of knowledge in the Garden of Eden in the first place? Especially if you know that Satan will tempt the humans to eat from it (he’s omniscient is he not?) and the humans you created absolutely will eat from it. God is like one of those Sims players that deliberately create dangerous situations for the sims only he gets really mad when they predictably fall into the trap he set.
I know someone who was in the hospital a lot as a kid, and said her faith was shattered by three words “Pediatric Oncology Ward”. That and having been placed in the room across from where they took patients for burn debridement, in a children’s hospital.
Pretty much my goto for problem of evil. It is really hard to argue that an loving god, even with free will bullshit excuse, would create a situation where humans had to develop pediatric oncology. The one group of humans we can point to and say they are innocent the one group we can point to and say this injustice. Given a choice between a universe that is indifferent and one that is a machine for misery I know which I would prefer and which one makes the most sense given the data we have.
Pretty much my goto for problem of evil.
It’s a good example of it.
I’m fond of a work of fiction called UNSONG when it comes to the problem of evil though, it posits as a solution that god operates at a level of abstraction where if two things are identical, they are the same thing and God’s purpose is to maximize the amount of good that exists. So God goes about creating worlds, first a perfect one, then ones with a single imperceptible imperfection, etc, etc, every conceivable world that results in more good than evil on net. We’re out on the fringes of that.
This same work of fiction also manages to be an absolute masterclass on foreshadowing, and manages to be about theodicy, kabbalah, open source software, the works of William Blake and the song Miss American Pie all at once. Coherently. If something doesn’t make sense to you in the moment, it’s probably not a plot hole but a lack of understanding that has already been foreshadowed.
Maybe secondhand stories are a bad way to understand it.
Not sure what you mean. Bible stories are second-hand at best, and mostly 5th hand or worse.
don’t play games. Reality is better.
?
I have no idea what you’re getting at. What games?
pretending to misunderstand me. That game.
I’m not pretending. I have no idea what you mean.
Let’s begin again, and I’ll give you every benefit of the doubt, assuming I’m a complete idiot and that you’re making your point in earnest: what point am I missing?
Honestly, I feel like we’re talking past each other, and I’d rather have an earnest conversation.
I said “Maybe secondhand stories are a bad way to understand it.”
The “it” refers to this thing called “god”. Referred to by a story that you read. A second-etc-hand story
Assume that somebody saw something really strange. They tell their friends about it but, because it is strange, they have to make up a name and describe it via metaphor.
Any understanding conveyed must be crippled. Because language is limited that way. Do that a few more times and we’re worse than lost. We have arrived at fanfiction.
This is obvious.
A better way to understand it is to see for yourself.
To be fair, Jesus didn’t set any conditions. It was his dad being a dick as usual.
To be entirely confusing to the point that words don’t have meaning any more. He literally is his father. So it’s still a bad excuse.
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“Why have I forsaken me??”
Why have you forsaken him?
Isn’t Jesus his dad? And also the holy ghost at the same time?
Sounds like deflecting.
Depends on your view.
Some say he is, some say he’s different, some say they’re a paradoxical entity that both is and isn’t.
Trying to save the face of Jesus?
This was one of my early questions and one of the first reasons that started pushing me away from religion.
At one point I asked my religion teacher in high school something among the lines of “So if a hypothetical person is the most good person on Earth from all the ways of looking at things, except he doesn’t believe in God, does the latter invalidate everything else and he’d still go to hell?”. She pretty much said yes.
Luckily she was chill about some of us in the class not believing. We just agreed to disagree, and while there were multiple debates on various religious subjects started by someone in the class questioning something she was saying, it never got heated.
I got lucky that my high school religion teacher was an atheist
I recommend reading The Origin of Satan. I read it recently after seeing a character (Janice) reading it on the Sopranos. Good scholarly work. I plan to reread it after I’ve let it simmer for a bit.
Thanks for recommending
Love torture? My fav.
So… He’s just the jerkiest attention whore? Damn… That’s basically if a 4chaner became a god
Trippy seeing LDS paintings popping up in memes lol.
Fun fact, you can tell who the nephites and lamanites are in the painting with one weird trick…
Rather low hanging fruit. Rather shallow assessment.
I recommend hallucinogens, meditation, maybe good art. Old secondhand stories are just old secondhand stories. A poor representation.
So, basically, your suggestion is to induce hallucinations to meet a god? Nice! These narcs are the people who Know. They saw god, so now they kill and steal for more… god. I like your approach! Rhymes well with the history of the church.
Don’t be so eager to dismiss.
Experiment first, analyze second. That’s science.
That’s not science.
Oh, I did make a few experiments in this field over my life ) Agreed though that i played too much to the spirit of this community.
Still fail to understand 2 things:
- how is it relevant to the OP?
- what makes the results of these experiences a good representation of religion and/or faith?
Happy to hear your thoughts.
Forget it
Having read some of your other comments here, let me try to rephrase what you say and please tell me which one better reflect what you mean:
-
This particular representation of a religion is bad. However, if one meditate and have other forms of spiritual experience, they would probably come up with a better one that would confirm existence of a god, that would be directly relevant to this person.
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All religions are not worth it (given that you are not referring to any other recognised confession), go smoke some weed and be kind to people around you.
Happy to follow the second one! )
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Cool story, so what’s with the fire, brimstone and eternity of suffering? Seems a little much for an event?
Or maybe you’re of one of the denominations that don’t believe in hell?
There were fuckin bored and Netflix wasn’t around.
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As you say, you’re in the minority of Christians in your belief, and that many believe in the literal, eternal suffering, lake of fire kind of hell. Memes kind of have to cater to common denominators, so might then not pertain to you.
We don’t have many adventists where I’m from, would you entertain a theological question from your belief?
What role does Hell play in your denomination? In other Christianities it’s often a deterrent, source of God fear, and an answer to what happens to the out-group (heathens, gentiles, sinners, etc).
If Hell is a “short” event before eternal death-sleep (I googled adventist hell belief, sorry if I’m misunderstanding), it seems like it would be a very mild punishment for cardinal sins/heresy, but maybe you don’t have those?
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He wants to forgive us?? Then he could do it. He’s all powerful, all knowing after all. What do I have to be forgiven for? Original sin? Give me a break.
How many hoops do you need to jump through to arrive at a christian conclusion? How many times did you have to be told to believe in something unprovable and invisible?
Your fervent beliefs are likely held less strongly than some Hindus, Muslims, Jews, etc. They are ALL sure that you are wrong, just as you they. Can’t you see the futility of pretending to know something unknowable? If you had been born somewhere else, you would perhaps hold completely different views just as strongly.
You blindly place your trust in other humans who are telling you to believe in something utterly impossible. You really think they have translated divine will over millennia? Let alone accurately? If the devil exists, then he lives in the utter hubris of humanity. To think that we can know the unknowable.
Isn’t it convenient that the “devil” is responsible for sowing the seeds of doubt. Isn’t it convenient that no matter what logic and reason you apply, your religion can merely hand-wave and say it isn’t for us to know? Are you satisfied with non-answers and manipulation of your emotions?
You’re being duped. I genuinely hope you can find your way out.
Cheers,
A formerly brainwashed Catholic child
He is omnipotent, he can simply forgive us without our involvement. Or allow forgiveness after death, because death is an arbitrary cutoff. Or provide more obvious evidence he exists instead of giving children cancer.
The meme is applicable to your beliefs as well. Guess correctly in ~100 years of life or be denied paradise for eternity.
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He “overrides” free will all the time, like when he commits global genocide by flood because everyone was bad. BTW none of them yet had Jesus to worship for salvation, so I guess they’re just out of luck, huh? Or when god directly murders a person does that give them a free ticket?
He does give children cancer. He created the world, he created all the evil in the world, he created cancer. “No, boo hoo, we are fallen, we ate the fruit,” he created the fruit, he placed us next to the fruit.
Heaven is completely unconscionable. If a child refused to come to an activity one weekend, you’d spitefully refuse to allow that child to attend that activity forever? That’s how a child behaves, not an adult. That’s how god behaves also.
The whole concept is idiotic. It’s clearly fairy tales built on the morals of the era they came from. But because generations of gullible believers have been brainwashing their children we have to deal with it to this day.
Kudos for sharing your side of things here. Even if I don’t agree ;P
It bothers me how many people use the downvote button as a “I disagree” button.
I know, but it still isn’t Biblical tho
Well that seems to depend on who’s reading it :P
God wants to forgive us, but we need to let Him. The only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which is to intentionally and consistently harden your heart and ignore Him-- how can you be forgiven if you ignore the one who wants to forgive you? If you’re wondering if you’ve done that and wether you can be forgiven, it’s not too late. You can still come back to Him.
I might not be understanding the nuances here, but from what you say even an Unforgivable Sin is “punished” by oblivion in the death-sleep, no?
So I gather then that you don’t really fear hell, although not-hell would be preferable?
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In that case, why would anyone fear hell?
And if hell is the event at which you aren’t choosing God, why have it in the discourse at all? Or maybe I’m imagining it wrong, as to me it sounds like a waiting room kind of deal, you die, you wait until you make the decision and then you pass on to whatever you chose - rebirth or long sleep (in which case also the next thing to happen would be Him coming back, as either God changes their mind over eternity or you don’t wake up at all).
Virtually every Christian sect has beliefs that aren’t explicitely stated in the Bible.
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Do you know how the Bible was written?
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The Bible is a lot of different collections of many different books written, re-written, and orally transmited tales, of which at various points of history different Christian traditions have chosen which ones were canon and which ones were not (and therefore were taken out of the Bible), often with political actors influencing their decisions. If God inspired them all to write the Bible, how does it come that different Christian traditions chose different books? How come that plenty of its meaning got lost across plenty of languages if there was divine help? How come that an English Bible and a Russian Orthodox one may say substantially different things, merely due to translation divergences that piled on during centuries? If you accept all of this, how can all of them be saying the truth, if they dissent from each other? If only one of them says the truth, how do you know which one is it? If only one particular version of the Bible is the correct one, why doesn’t God correct the record to make sure the hundreds of millions of Christians through the world who are following wrong ones aren’t led astray?
And it started here.
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While it’s true that some denominations have slightly different canons, they all still have the same set of core books. As for the other books, you need to see if it’s consistant with the others. There’s some that are fine, there’s some (ie the gospel of thomas) that are partly fine but also have some serious crap , and there’s some (ie the gospel of judas) that are full of crap.
Alright, so you have a belief that the “most complete” set of books that most Christian traditions chose (already flimsy ground, but let’s carry on), were chosen by divine influence, that whatever potential distortions or misinterpretations of the original texts do not fundamentally skew its original intended meanings, and I’m also going to add to the list that you believe that plenty of its contents must be understood as allegory or excused because they’re the result of a very different cultural context, because I don’t think you are going to excuse that passages such as this:
https://www.bibleref.com/Exodus/21/Exodus-21-20.html , https://www.bibleref.com/Exodus/21/Exodus-21-21.html
Allowing corporal punishment of slaves as long as they don’t drop dead.
There is a severe degree of arbitrariness in deciding that a very specific set of books that were chosen and translated by fallible human beings, under the watchful gaze of rulers that were often arbitrary and politically motivated, were divinely inspired to declare the Universal truth of an All-Powerful god, but you should also pass it all through the prism of your personal interpretation, because that All-Powerful god couldn’t be bothered to make the job any easier for you, or even worse,
Not everybody is held to the same standard. If you do something wrong and you don’t know any better, it doesn’t count as a sin until you know. And being a Christian isn’t about what you do, it’s about who you know.
Perhaps that god has decided to personally curse you, because not only weren’t you born among the billions of human beings that aren’t Christian, but you were raised as a Christian with the capacity and will to get yourself involved in theological discussions, which in your view, brings you ever closer to the knowledge of your god, and therefore increases your responsibility to behave as you think is moral, even if it brings you pain, doubt, heartbreak or confrontation with your neighbours, your community or your congregation. Why should you be loaded with this responsibility, out of the millions of people who have lived more comfortable lives, with more capacity to raise their own status over the abuse and exploitation of others, many of whom didn’t even have the responsibility of being Christians, and didn’t have to deal with the challenges and difficulties of your own life? It all sounds to me like you’re grasping a burning nail for the flimsy chance that an omnipotent being that could and should treat you better does actually really exist.
“Our planet has been observing your puny species since your planet was created 5,000 years ago by God. In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.”
thank you for answering questions here, despite all the snark and smartassery in this comment-section.
Are you saying that ALL of the verses about hell being “eternal” or “everlasting” are taken out of context?
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Jude 1:7 Matthew 25:41 And many more
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All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and that day that is coming will set them on fire," says the LORD Almighty. - Malachi 4
This is the first verse you cited. It has nothing to do with what you are asserting.
That’s the problem with finding sources who interpret the Bible to what they want it to mean. It usually has nothing to do with what is actually written.
Moreover, and I’ve seen this over and over as soon as a theist tells an atheist to provide passages in the Bible the conversation is pretty much done.
Ahem
Hell is not eternal.
Doom is eternal.
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Thank you for showing up here and providing us your insight. I really wish folks like you that show up and provide it wouldn’t be downvoted because you don’t fit their view of a Christian.
the idea of the immortal soul comes from greek philosophy and isn’t biblical at all
Sorta. You have the Nephelium which are strongly hinted at to be the ghosts of great warriors that died. You also have the Witch of Endor who can channel ghosts. Their idea of an immortal soul wasn’t consistent and it is reflected in the Hebrew Bible. You are right however the Christian concept of the soul most likely comes from Plato.
I don’t know why you say hell isn’t a place. The word comes from a physical location that you can even visit if you want in Israel. As for Luke he was clearly just copying what Paul said about “if they knew what they were doing…”. Because Paul had to explain the nonsense story related to him.
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I used to be a Christian so I like to think I know my hermeneutics.
That said, this post just goes to show how wildly a simple book can be interpreted. I wasn’t a Seventh Day Adventist. I was a Calvinist.
It shows just how confident you can be in absolutely nothing.
When you really look into scripture, you come to realize it’s a book filled with words with no real truth outside of some dudes wrote it.
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God also told me that you’re going to hell for being a Seventh Day Adventist. He inspired me to write it down and everything.
So you got that going for you.
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Not really, God told those dudes what to write
I see. So you have an explanation of why God changes his mind about the details, why there are so many variants in the texts, and why some random Letters, Epistles, and Gospels are missing? If God choosr to write a book why is he so bad at the task?
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One can’t chose to believe something, you either believe it or you don’t. I don’t believe in God because there is no evidence for it, and nothing that cannot be explained without God, and no explanation involving God which isn’t made more complicated by His involvement. If God exists, and he did in fact create me, then he made me this way, incapable of belief without proof. So his choice is that I no be ‘with him’. I have no fee will.
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