Electric school buses are a breath of fresh air for children | Nearly $1B in federal funding could help clean up the unequal health impacts of diesel pollution.::Nearly $1B in federal funding will help decarbonize transportation and clean up some of the unequal health impacts of diesel pollution
As a child in the 80’s I remember my gag reflex kicking in every time I walked to my bus. The air was so bad that my body physically refused to let me take in a breath.
FWIW diesel-powered vehicles are much cleaner now than they were in the '80s. Diesel fuel is now sulfur-free, and since 2004 progressively stiffer EPA regulations have reduced the NOx and particulate matter output of diesel engines by orders of magnitude. Unfortunately, though, “cleaner” in this case does not include a reduction in greenhouse gases - in fact, school bus engines of today spit out more greenhouse gases per mile than did buses of the 1980s. This is because the EPA diesel regulations limit permitted emissions based on horsepower-miles, so an engine with twice the horsepower (like today’s bus engines compared with older engines) is permitted to emit twice as much junk. And since modern bus engines have much more horsepower, they emit much more greenhouse gases.
I expect soon I will see “diesel parties” where parents bring their kids to inhale diesel fumes from a running lifted pickup in a closed off garage.
Similar to how people I know advertised their gas stoves to everyone they know to bring their children to have an “illegal gas cooked meal” on weekends…
Wish every politician gets first dibs in these diesel parties, preferably a nice closed garage with excellent weather sealing for efficiency
For those of you who haven’t been in a school bus in years, do you remember how loud they are? Reducing diesel pollution is a win, but being in a less-noisy environment for however long each day is also a win.
As a cyclist and occasional user of public transit, I really like the idea of most buses eventually being at least plug-in hybrid-electric if not entirely battery electric. I’m curious about the mass difference between a diesel, diesel-electric, and battery-electric bus (after all, the heavier the vehicle, the harder it is on the road). I expect some of the fuel-and-maintenance-cost-savings from the bus fleet will have to go to road maintenance in the end, but I’d rather spend money that way (locally) than spend it on pumping fresh hot carbon out of foreign wellheads
Diesel-Electric Hybrid should also be considered as an option depending on the use case of the service area. As a hybrid, the bus wouldn’t need to run it’s diesel engine at the school pickup point, would have the the benefit of regenerative braking, and overall have better fuel economy, emissions, and longevity of the engine.
This would be beneficial to areas that are too rural and have too long of routes for the batteries to last and areas that have a lot of cold weather might not want to risk freezing their kids because the batteries suddenly have to both drive and heat the whole bus. Cities could be all electric because the routes are much shorter and overall be operating at lower speeds. Also, much more stop-and-go, so the regen braking will really shine.
Will people stop trying to put batteries in everything already? They are heavy, slow to charge, unsustainable, cause fires that can’t be extinguished and are affected by extreame weather(especially cold).
Public transit runs on predefined routes, for that you can setup trams(best option) or trolleybuses(no need for rails). I don’t care that you think the wires look ugly, they are objectively the better solution.
Almost like we’re still putting money into research to solve all those problems. Much of what you cite is overblown, and what remains valid isn’t going to stay that way.
Edit: also, school buses need to support a lot of routes that are off the main roads. Tram or trolley systems are not feasible.
Most of what I cited applies to li-ion tech, and not sure what you mean by overblown, lithium fires are a nightmare and lithium doesn’t grow on trees so we will run out of it. And recylcing is not a solution, we’ve seen how that works for much easier to recycle materials. The alternatives such as sodium batteries are even heavier due to lower power density. Imo there should be more research put into battery alternatives such as hydrogen cells.
As for school buses, wires may not be feasable, but the comment I replied to mentioned most buses not just school buses.
Not all lithium chemistries have fire issues, and lithium isn’t the only chemistry on the horizon. Oceanic lithium sources are basically indefinite–there’s more than we would have a use for. There are also alternative extraction methods that open up more economical sources (“mineral reserve” means the economically exractable sources, not the complete total amount).
Recycling products like this will work when there’s scale to justify it, which there will be in about a decade. In fact, we don’t necessarily need to fully recycle it. Cells that are no longer useful for cars can still be useful for general storage, so we’d reuse rather than recycle.
Hydrogen is a dead end. Inefficient and would require a totally separate and unnecessary set of infrastructure from battery charging. Why pay for two sets when one will do?
If you’re using an argument against EVs that’s repeated on the right, it’s almost always bullshit. If it’s an argument unique to the left, such as how cars have created terrible cities and EVs don’t fix that, it’s on much better ground. That’s not relevant to busses, however.
Do you not understand what a school buses job is? That route changes every year and not everyone lives where you can expect kids to be able walk to a high traffic bus stop.
That route changes every year and not everyone lives where you can expect kids to be able walk to a high traffic bus stop.
If you had proper public transport that number would be quite negligible. Very very occasionally you see dedicated school buses in rural areas in Germany: Minivans. Which makes sense as boondonks areas might not have bus service but have collect taxis as only public transport, which generally are also minivans. Think living in a village of 50 and going to a school in another village, population of 2k or so. The scale of Wacken, maybe a bit smaller. Let me see… Yeah Bokelrehm doesn’t have a bus station. OTOH it’s like a kilometre from the school in Wacken so kids are probably biking (“Grundschule Wacken”, northern end of the village on the road to Bokelrehm).
Usually the most that happens is that a regular bus service gets a doubled-up schedule when school starts and ends.
Do you not understand that the comment I replied to mentioned most buses not just school buses?
The article is about school buses.
No technology ever comes out free of caveats, and trams, even though they are way better than busses, require years of public work on the infrastructure. That job should be started ASAP, but letting diesel run in the meanwhile is pointless
Which is why I said trolleybuses are the next best thing. Not as good as trams, but doesn’t take years to hang some wires on poles…
Adam Something videos are great, but his opinion shouldn’t be taken uncritically. Doubly so in a North American context, which has very different economic issues with mass transit adoption compared to his EU roots. He often rails against politicians who are trying to take some of America’s bad ideas and implement them in Europe. In NA, we have to deal with the fact that this shit is already here. Note how YouTubers who do have an NA background, like Not Just Bikes or City Nerd, are more cyncial about trams and trollys while still supporting the general idea.
In any case, trollys and trams aren’t going to work for school buses. They need to serve every nook and cranny of a city. That’s why they’re separate from other public transportation in the first place. Short of having wires literally everywhere, it’s not feasible.
I think the most important thing about schools in the US would be to reduce their size. The minimum size for a primary school in my state is 80 pupils under ordinary circumstances, arbitrarily few if the location requires it (the commute would be intolerable, we don’t do boarding in primary education), Nordstrandischmoor (an island) has a primary school with one teacher and two students. Average size is about 270, scattered throughout towns and every village with a population over 1k or so. Our rural density is lower than that of US suburbia so it’s definitely doable to have a primary school within what 500m of most of pupils and 3km max for anything but exceptional cases. Probably few enough that you don’t want to use a bus but a minivan if it’s a place where public transport doesn’t reach.
Why not just make normal public transit? Like school busses aren’t a thing here so I took the regular bus to school like everyone else, it’s a lot more versatile too since people can take it to more places.
School busses don’t have adult strangers and other issues tied to them. They only go from people’s homes to school and back.
What issues do adult strangers cause? And what are the other issues? Also legs work pretty good to get to a bus station, I hear kids have those.
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The article talked a lot about school buses in rural areas. Mass Transit isn’t a thing in most rural areas.
In urban cities, yes that’s a feasible idea. Most people in the USA live in places where mass transit isn’t feasible.
We are a nation of car drivers who bought into the dream of having a house on a large lot in the suburbs. Mass Transit exists, but in the burb it’s generally a parking lot where you take a bus to your job downtown.
Yea, my whole point is that stick a bunch of bus lanes there instead of having a separate 2 times a day bus for children.
Most people in the US absolutely live in areas where Mass Transit should be an option. Like 80% of us live on either coast, and both coasts are basically just one continuous city at this point. Sure we call the areas different names, because that’s where the city started, but the coasts are effectively two massive cities that should absolutely have robust mass transit.
That other 20% that inhabits the other 98% of the land in this country, yeah not feasible for mass transit outside of the bigger cities.
Best you start walking now. School could be a mere 60 miles/96K one way from your home, (even if you live “in town” it’s still a 2 mile walk to school). Oh and the temperature outside is -35C this morning. Good luck! And yes, where I live that’s how far we need to bus students due to low population densities. And also yes, the winter time temperatures do get that low - it’s been around -15F/-26C every morning for the last 2 weeks. Toss in a nice amount of wind, and frostbite can occur in a mere handful of minutes on bare skin.
School buses also ensure all students arrive at the same time. Usually a 10 minute window. It also limits possible accidents, with young children in particular, crossing uncontrolled intersections in busy neighborhoods. Since school buses drop their passengers off at the door.
Lots of reasons to use school buses because not everyone lives within walking distance in quiet places or somewhere warm.
Schools is canceled if it’s -20C for 1-6 grade and -25C for higher grades here, I’m assuming that is also a thing in the US. And I have walked to school at -25C before only to walk back because it was closed, I think I was in 3th grade. It’s not some deadly arctic weather you make it out to be, just dress properly.
Also all of that is pretty irrelevant since I was saying you should have public transit that people can just use, including kids for getting to school, not that kids have to walk the whole way to school. Not just special busses children use twice a day.
That is not a thing in the US - there would be too much cancelled school in many of the northern states.
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How? My country is like high enough on the map to be on the same line as central Canada and we get like a week or two of -25C or more plus some random cold snaps.
Also that’s completely beside the point since my whole point was to have normal bus lanes instead of a school bus.
Shrug, I’m not a metrologist to be able to explain everything that goes into why it’s normal to have -25C days in the winter here. Our cold snaps are down to -35-40C, not -25C.
I didn’t respond to your other point for a reason. I only responded to your ‘I assume this is a thing in the US’ to correct your assumption. Do with that what you will.
Nope, school does NOT get closed here because it’s too cold. If it did, we would seldom have a school day. A blizzard might have school be a couple hours late, icy road conditions will get school closed. But cold? Only once were all the schools closed when the windchill hit -75C about 15 or 20 years ago. It was unprecedented and caused a lot of controversy. And yes, we know how to dress properly here - it’s below freezing 6+ months out of a year. But, while it’s a mere -26C right now, the windchill is currently -35C. It’s foolish to expect a 5 or 6 year old to wait 15 or 20 minutes in the open for a public bus or to walk a kilometer plus to school. Frostbite can happen in as little as 10 minutes to exposed skin. Dedicated school buses avoid those possibilities.
And due to the low population density, there is NO public transportation here. And we do need to bus some children 95km one way everyday. Otherwise they would need to travel well over 100km one way to the next closest school. The average bus route here is about 30-40km one way.
And if you REALLY want to save on transportation, you should keep all the children at home and just have them attend classes on-line. After all, we have the technology to do so, (and did so during covid). But be mindful of the tanking educational scores. Turns out children really suck at showing up for on-line classes…
Not everyone lives in a nice warm place like you with all the amenities you personally expect to have.
that doesn’t fix the toxic diesel pollution does it?
Did you know that regular buses also come in electrical variants?
Even more shockingly: So do trams and metros.
obviously electric buses would be the solution which is shockingly the point of the argument. How dense are you?
Less dense than thinking that public transport can’t use electric vehicles, claiming that public transport wouldn’t fix diesel issues.
who said that? Can you even read?
You:
Why not just make normal public transit? Like school busses aren’t a thing here so I took the regular bus to school like everyone else, it’s a lot more versatile too since people can take it to more places.
that doesn’t fix the toxic diesel pollution does it?
OP there wanted to know why school buses instead of ordinary public transport buses, separate from any diesel vs. electric issue.
You then went ahead and said “nuh-uh if we don’t have dedicated school buses we can’t fix diesel fumes”.
That’s why you got downvoted, that’s why my snarky retort got upvoted. You may not have meant it like that but that’s how what you wrote reads to other people.
I never suggested we don’t or do have dedicated school buses. My point is crystal clear: all diesel buses, school or otherwise, are toxic to humans. School buses are a bigger problem, directly exposing kids to these harmful particulates. It’s astonishing how my simple point about electrifying public transport and or school buses, which I’ve repeated ad nauseam, gets twisted. People’s preconceived notions or maybe their reading comprehension problems are skewing the real issue here. It’s not rocket science, yet here we are, going in circles.
Neither do school busses since only kids take those. If like most people took the bus instead of drove that would help immensely even if it was the most polluting bus ever.
um wtf? We all wearing gas masks or something? You realise diesel fumes are toxic to people right? Kids catching buses spewing toxic gas is not a good situation. I think you’re focusing on the climate changing issue of pollution and not the pressing issue, which is the toxic fumes that come from diesel buses.
What kind of weird busses do you have in the states? Most busses (And a large amount of cars) here run on diesel and have no such issue.
if you think that you’re delusional mate.
Sorry… you think there is no issue with children breathing diesel fumes?
Probably not a good idea for them to suck on the tailpipe but diesel busses are like the most common type of bus and they don’t pump the exhaust into the cabin. So unless busses in the US do that or kids like the taste of tailpipe I don’t see how that is even happening.
Because they stand next to the bus and wait in a line to get on while inhaling the fumes.
I could see this fit in perfectly with normal bus routes, but field trips and athletic events could be a challenge, especially for rural schools. Nothing that could not be planned around but possibly an extra cost (e.g. charter buses) or needing to keep the kids entertained while charging on the road.
I bet with the maintenance and fuel savings, the occasional charter would be cheaper over the lifetime of the bus.
If not, replace your 30 diesel fleet with 25 electric and 5 diesel. Still a big win.
Yep I bet they’ll keep a handful of diesel trucks for specific occasions and emergencies.
Hopefully in a few years they’ll have some range extender carts the bus could pull behind it.
Given the size of the bus you could fit a huge ass battery in there.
Yeah, but you don’t always need such a large battery, and that takes way from the storage area, which is important for long trips.
Maybe an aux battery that can be slid in the frame?
The money will purchase more than 2,700 vehicles to shuttle 7 million students in 37 states
Big buses…
Good catch lol. I’m trying to picture a 2600 passenger bus. That’s more than any train I’ve ever been on. It would have to be the size of an ocean liner.
I am assuming they are adding multiple trips a day. My old bus dropped off elementary, middle, and high school. Some drivers even did after school drop offs. I doubt they mean 2600 buses moving 7 million people in 1 trip.
I remember the school buses in one high school I went to running on propane. It’s not as clean as electric, but it’s cleaner than diesel… and at the time, an electric school bus would have been expensive, if not outright science fiction.
Now that’s what I call “Propane Accessories”!
There were a number of electric busses in the early 1900s. There are plenty of large electric people and material movers. They’ve been used for a hundred years now for underground mining.
You mean trolley buses with overhead power lines? Doesn’t work so well for school routes that change.
No, battery powered.
So the range would have been laughable.
Were they able to keep up with modern traffic and go out to the suburbs and back?
A bunch converted during the 70s oil embargo. I’m surprised it didn’t stick around
Republicans are against it because they think children should be breathing diesel fumes and the ones who get ill from it didn’t try hard enough.
Republicans are against it because oil lobbyists who would lose money on it told them to be and the bribe money is nice.
“Fuck them kids.”
at this point i believe you
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I love EVs and truly believe they’re the future. But holy shit what must these monsters weigh? And, what’s the environmental impact considering our current shitty battery tech?
I still support moving this direction because it creates the necessary infrastructure that can be leveraged by newer battery tech. And likely even with the batteries, it’s better than diesel.
But the new batteries to make them lighter and less polluting can’t come soon enough.
our current shitty battery tech
I think our battery tech is the best it’s ever been, unless you’re comparing it to sci-fi
EDIT: Why on earth are people downvoting improving battery technology? LMFAO, sometimes this place is batshit crazy.
There’s research into many different formulations that don’t use nearly as much (or in some cases any) toxic materials, solid-state batteries, etc.
Are you taking the critique personally? If so, that’s a misunderstanding. It’s not an attack on you.
It’s simply a fact there’s a LONG way to go on battery tech, and anything we can do to increase power density while decreasing weight is critical to making them more environmentally friendly and sustainable.
The current environmental impact is none if you compare it to literally shipping oil from the middle east every day just to burn it.
You love EVs yet are parroting oil barons talking point. I’m skeptical.
I still support moving this direction because it creates the necessary infrastructure that can be leveraged by newer battery tech. And likely even with the batteries, it’s better than diesel.
I don’t know how to help you read.
You sound like a demagog who feels attacked when faced with facts or genuine issues. Advocating for improvements to the technology isn’t being anti-EV or even anti-battery. LOL. #faceplam&sigh
Batteries are over 90% recyclable. They’re actually pretty environmentally friendly after the first round.
But theyre not recycled much–YET.
Agree and excitedly look forward to growth in that market (or even having a market for it). They will eventually become a profitable recycling opportunity. Unless one of the other battery techs (tons of them) in development just completely supplanted them. Either way the impact should diminish over time. Main questions are how fast and long will they continue to be an environmental negative.
Rechargeable nickel–cadmium (Ni-Cd), nickel metal hydride (Ni-MH), lithium-ion (Li-ion) and nickel–zinc (Ni-Zn), can also be recycled. Disposable alkaline batteries make up the vast majority of consumer battery use, but there is currently no cost-neutral recycling option.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_recycling
EDIT: You can read further down how close some of these companies are to an actual recycling center. They’re getting there!
Here’s the summary for the wikipedia article you mentioned in your comment:
Battery recycling is a recycling activity that aims to reduce the number of batteries being disposed as municipal solid waste. Batteries contain a number of heavy metals and toxic chemicals and disposing of them by the same process as regular household waste has raised concerns over soil contamination and water pollution.
“Black propaganda is a form of propaganda intended to create the impression that it was created by those it is supposed to discredit”
When a fact looks like propaganda to you, then you need to recognize the red flag and seek self improvement.
How is this gonna work when electric cars won’t even run in icy weather
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Electric cars run just fine in icy weather
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Heatpumps, which work a lot better for larger buses than smaller buses.
Bus routes are generally short, fixed, and planned. They are literally the perfect place for an EV.
You can generate a lot of heat with fuel-based heaters. Many buses already use these.
Makes sense to have an aux fuel heat source for EV buses that may deal with cold climate a few weeks out of the year.
Buses will have fairly large batteries (Bird does 150kWh). The percentage of the battery needed for heat goes down as size goes up because the interior size is relatively negligible in how much added heating capacity is needed to keep the bus warm.
But yes, probably wouldn’t be too crazy to throw on a propane heater in especially cold climates.
3 kids in a full size bus near the end of its rural route in sub-zero conditions. Buses aren’t insulated. An EV failure is going to be a problem. Considering how cheap those diesel heaters are it would be a liability concern to not have them.
https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy14osti/60068.pdf
“Similarly to route duration, doubling the route distance to reflect daily operating distances, it is found that on average school buses travel 73.46 miles, with a 99.7% cutoff on driving distance of 154.46 miles.”
That’s double distance to cover both before and after school; they have a pause in the middle of the day to charge up again. There are battery buses on the market right now that do 155 miles, which is double all but 0.3% of routes out there. It also takes about an order of magnitude more power to run a motor for an EV than it does to run the heaters. If you get stuck in the snow in an EV at 50% charge, you can likely make it there through the night with the heater running.
The cold is a complete non-issue for this use case.
Buses aren’t insulated.
Why. I mean if the weather is usually fine sure but if you’re living on the arctic circle they better be insulated.
AAA says that EV batteries tend to lose power faster in cold weather, getting as little as 50-60% of their advertised range.
“Charging stations around the city are over capacity… Once their car is finally plugged in, it takes longer than usual to power up. “…They tell you it’s fast, but then it takes two hours to charge your car,” Marcus Campbell tells NBC Chicago.”
https://www.pcmag.com/news/dont-buy-a-tesla-chicagos-ev-drivers-struggle-with-sub-zero-temperatures
This weather is a worst case scenario and I doubt schools would be open anyway but sounds like EVs are having a tough time.
Don’t buy a battery only car if you don’t have a place to charge it. But that’s totally irrelevant to school busses.
They wouldn’t use public chargers you buffoon.
School busses are used like 4 hours per day, so that leaves 20 hours per day for charging.
99% of School busses need to drive less than 156 miles per day.
School busses drive slowly, another thing well suited to electrification.
Honestly lithium batteries are probably totally unneeded here. Something swappable? A cheaper lower performance battery could be used and charged or swapped during the 6 hours the kids are at school. Charging speed could be actively managed to help level grid load e.g charge overnight, but not during peak usage times.
I was replying to a post that started with: “1. Electric cars run just fine in icy weather”
Just fuck off with the name calling
AAA says that EV batteries tend to lose power faster in cold weather, getting as little as 50-60% of their advertised range.
Right, and the EVs that lose that much range are the ones with the smallest battery packs. The heating requirement as a percentage of the battery pack goes down as the battery gets larger. It takes roughly the same amount of energy to keep a 40kWh battery warm as it does to keep a 150kWh battery warm.
The same logic doesn’t directly translate for a car as a bus.
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“How is this gonna work when I have no fucking clue what I’m talking about”
Yeah. About that. Go read a bit about electric cars instead of scare headlines in the news. Hell try one for yourself, you might like it.
Look at this guy, who has never had to start a diesel engine when it’s -20°F outside.
Shit, they’re hard to start when it’s + 20°F outside. I’m a school bus driver and that was the exact temperature this morning when one third of our fleet wouldn’t start up.
https://stnonline.com/partner-updates/6-myths-about-electric-school-buses-debunked/
"…according to a 2013 SAE study, the average school bus route is less than 32 miles, with over 99% of routes being under 78 miles. "
Busses exist with a 155 mile range. This is a non issue.
I grew up and rode the bus to school in Iowa. There were multiple days in my youth that local schools were closed because the diesel busses wouldn’t turn over. The guy that maintained ours used Amsoil, so our buses worked, but cold weather doesn’t only hurt electric vehicles.
There were reports over this past week over people having difficulties charging their electric vehicles due to the cold temps (-30°F wind chill and worse). All of the schools in the state were closed as well as many businesses.
Basically, it’s a self correcting issue. If it’s too cold to charge a battery, it’s too cold to have school.
I grew up and rode the bus to school in Iowa.
I rode the bus in Alaska. The buses ran well below -50f. It turns out that it’s not that hard to keep your batteries and oilpans heated if you bother putting plug-in heaters (literally, electric blankets for the purpose) in your fleet vehicles, winterize your vehicles, and plug them in when it’s cold.
I get that it’s uncommon to be that cold-prepared in places that don’t expect to see temperatures below -20 for more than a few days in a given calendar year- at some point, it makes sense to just call it off when it’s that cold. After all, do all (or even most of) the kids have proper clothes to deal with real cold?
Really cold weather can be adapted to, it’s just that when you don’t need it that often it makes sense not to spend the resources doing it.
For sure. The ROI really isn’t there when it happens every couple of years. Like you said, they do call it off when it’s that cold. It’s not safe for kids that have to walk to the bus or school. The main thing is that electric is the same way, so it’s a moot point.
The main thing is that electric is the same way,
No, the larger point is that it’s a struggle to make diesel work at +20F if you don’t do the things to make it work, and yet these things can be made to work reliably at -50F. The obstacle isn’t the limitations of the technology, it’s whether or not the cost curve makes sense. Electric can be made to work cheaply, if it’s important to you that it work- just like it’s possible to make that diesel turn over at -50F
When I say electric is the same way, I mean that if it’s too cold to run the vehicle, it’s too cold to have school.
Ok, that’s fair. The point I wanted to make upthread was that these sorts of impossible things are regularly made to work when making it work is worthwhile. Most of the ‘but this is a limitation of the technology’ talk here (about how EVs can’t work in the cold, etc) is defeatist bullshit that ignores that really if you want it to work it can be made to work
Most schools don’t open when is icy or extremely cold out. So your point is useless.
A combination of heaters and being mostly deployed in warmer environments, I’d assume.
