Ok, but x sounding like sh is not ok. We need to normalize spelling stuff like it’s pronounced. Otherwise every language is going to become like the English.
I have bad news for you. Spelling like it’s pronounced is heavily subjective and opinion based. Virtually every single language in living use has deviating pronunciation to some degree.
I disagree. X is a useless letter in English; it’s always copying other letters or combinations of letters. Meanwhile, there’s a special rule where putting an ‘s’ and an ‘h’ together makes a different sound. Why not have a single letter for that?
Because a diphthong is fine. Taking a already used character and assigning a new sound to it is going to make things hard.
Also I need you to argue not just from the English point of view, but all Latin alphabet using languages, in particular those with strict rules of pronunciation like German.
I think you really miss the point. It’s as if your suggestion that romanization methods have imperfections dismisses the actual reasons why people will refuse to make the effort to learn how to pronounce a name from a language other than their own, which go far beyond whether or not the spelling “makes sense”.
The comic gives a very concrete example of that. It wouldn’t matter if the letters exactly mapped to a perfect pronunciation, the mere fact it does not roll of the tongue, i.e. “sounds foreign”, coupled with the underlying xenophobia+racism combo is what’s at work there.
Exactly. Different languages have different phonology that you have to be familiar with, there is no one way to “spell it like it’s pronounced” (except IPA and even that can be tricky).
It doesn’t really sound like “sh” though, it’s a different phoneme. You place the tip of your tongue in the centre of the gum ridge behind your bottom teeth, rather than the top one. They have that noise as well, and - unsurprisingly I suppose - it is written “sh”. The former is a totally unfamiliar sound to a native English speaker, most people need that kind of specific coaching to produce it. Pinyin isn’t perfect, I agree, but it primarily exists to be used by Chinese people who already know how their own language sounds.
Bad take. You don’t shame people for being unable to make sounds that aren’t in their native language. If someone spoke Mandarin all their life and learned English, but had to approximate the “L” sound with “R”, you wouldn’t have this reaction claiming that allowing that approximation is turning everything into Mandarin
Well, in IPA, the “sh” sound is spelt “ʃ”. But “x” isn’t pronounced like in English either (and it’s not like it’s that consistent in English, it like “ks” in “experience” but like “gz” in “exam”). Instead, “x” in IPA is like “j” in Spanish.
Ok, but x sounding like sh is not ok. We need to normalize spelling stuff like it’s pronounced. Otherwise every language is going to become like the English.
I have bad news for you. Spelling like it’s pronounced is heavily subjective and opinion based. Virtually every single language in living use has deviating pronunciation to some degree.
I disagree. X is a useless letter in English; it’s always copying other letters or combinations of letters. Meanwhile, there’s a special rule where putting an ‘s’ and an ‘h’ together makes a different sound. Why not have a single letter for that?
Because a diphthong is fine. Taking a already used character and assigning a new sound to it is going to make things hard.
Also I need you to argue not just from the English point of view, but all Latin alphabet using languages, in particular those with strict rules of pronunciation like German.
I think you really miss the point. It’s as if your suggestion that romanization methods have imperfections dismisses the actual reasons why people will refuse to make the effort to learn how to pronounce a name from a language other than their own, which go far beyond whether or not the spelling “makes sense”.
The comic gives a very concrete example of that. It wouldn’t matter if the letters exactly mapped to a perfect pronunciation, the mere fact it does not roll of the tongue, i.e. “sounds foreign”, coupled with the underlying xenophobia+racism combo is what’s at work there.
Nah, this aint it. Finnish has strict pronounciation rules but German is pretty loose.
“Eichhörnchenschwanz” is spelt exactly like it’s pronounced. Does this help you pronounce it?
Yes, but only because I’m familiar with German. And I’d still mess it up when trying to pronounce it.
Exactly. Different languages have different phonology that you have to be familiar with, there is no one way to “spell it like it’s pronounced” (except IPA and even that can be tricky).
It doesn’t really sound like “sh” though, it’s a different phoneme. You place the tip of your tongue in the centre of the gum ridge behind your bottom teeth, rather than the top one. They have that noise as well, and - unsurprisingly I suppose - it is written “sh”. The former is a totally unfamiliar sound to a native English speaker, most people need that kind of specific coaching to produce it. Pinyin isn’t perfect, I agree, but it primarily exists to be used by Chinese people who already know how their own language sounds.
Do people place the tip of their tongue on something when pronouncing “sh”?
Not quite, but that’s where the channel for the air is formed, if you see what I mean. Placing the tongue is a cue for teaching the tongue position.
Bad take. You don’t shame people for being unable to make sounds that aren’t in their native language. If someone spoke Mandarin all their life and learned English, but had to approximate the “L” sound with “R”, you wouldn’t have this reaction claiming that allowing that approximation is turning everything into Mandarin
Why is there a correct way? What’s the correct way of pronouncing j? German, English, and Spanish have three different ways to pronounce it.
pinyin (system to write Chinese in Latin letters) is way more consistent than English spelling.
Skill issue, get good
Well, in IPA, the “sh” sound is spelt “ʃ”. But “x” isn’t pronounced like in English either (and it’s not like it’s that consistent in English, it like “ks” in “experience” but like “gz” in “exam”). Instead, “x” in IPA is like “j” in Spanish.
And of course the biggest source of the IPA /x/ sound in English is Scottish and Irish words that will spell it “ch”
If you want everything in Chinese to spelled right, then learn Kanji.