ITT: americans circlejerking and thinking europe is a country and that the gypsy situation in for example portugal is the same as in bulgaria
We could extend it to Europeans talking about Africans, “Muslims” or anyone else. The picture would still be valid.
…okay, and how does that apply to the topic and the comment section about gypsies?
Their hatred for others extends far beyond just gypsies. It’s about how Europeans are a lot more bigoted than they’re given credit for.
ITT: reinforcing my point
This is gonna cause some grump.
Both the EU and America have a race problem but I dunno from my perspective racism in Europe is so much more common and unchallenged. I think a lot of people have an inflated view of American racism cause they talk so often about it. I also don’t think the racism is the same, a lot of Europeans seem more racist about cultural differences than just skin color where Americans seem more skin deep racists.
I dunno just my opinion though.
I also think these parts of the world are the most culturally diverse so they talk about it but other parts of the world are SOOOO much more racist it isn’t even a comparison.
You’re not wrong. Americans have an obsession with skin colour and thinks that is what divides humanity. I remember a screenshot post of a black user asking, and to paraphrase: “remove poc’s what how would white people divide themselves?” The user is likely someone from North America and had never gone to Europe, or know its history, to see how divided Europeans are, even before the large immigration from outside the continent.
The western world by far contains the least racist cultures on the planet. At least presently. It’s just more visible especially to people in the western world
Americans tend to sensationalize anything so if someone says “I don’t like music about drug dealing and shooting people,” there is a good chunk of folks who would immediately say (unironically) that said person is racist against black people.
A friend of mine in South America was talking about it the other day. She was saying that while racism does exist where she lives, it’s treated and received with significantly less violence. She heard about racial tensions in America, and the crimes committed, and she was shocked. To her knowledge, that had never happened where she lives.
I don’t know enough about her local history to make any kind of argument, so I just let it go. But it did seem strange to me.
I read that as South Africa and I was like WTF
I’m American, but my grandma was a 1st generation immigrant. She always threatened to “sell [me] to the gypsies” if I didn’t behave. I didn’t have any idea what a “gypsy” was! There was no context for a 4 year old in the States. Hell, I didn’t even know it was a slur until I was in my twenties. That was pretty gross, Gram. Boomers gonna Boom, though, I guess.
I was 30 years old before I learned that word’s a slur
Same for me, but Germany. I thought, “Zigeuner” (Gypsy) meant that someone had no address because they would live in trailers and would move from place to place. Which sounded very cool and I wished, I could do that, too.
I did not understand, however, why one should not trust them.
Turns out, it’s just racism.
I encountered Romani a few times when I was living in Germany. It was not a positive impression. But even then I was well aware of how being historically marginalized breeds poverty and crime.
So ya don’t like dags?
I don’t know what that is, but it sounds like a slur. I don’t have any problem with Romani, only individuals who engage in antisocial behavior, same as anyone else.
Oh, dogs! Sure, I like dogs!
‘sounds like a slur’
this used to be called a colloquialism or abbreviation for the sake of brevity back in the day.
Putting aside the fact that they’re not the same thing, how is “colloquialism” or “abbreviation” more brief than “slur”?
It’s not necessarily a slur, depending on who you are using it to refer to. There are some communities who refer to themselves that way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gypsy,_Roma_and_Traveller
When i was little i though a “Zingaro” (gypsy) was someone poor or like someone who didn’t dress up well due to my mother saying stuff like “Don’t use X clothing like that, you look like a gypsy”
……wait that’s a slur?
It is on Wikipedia’s “List of Ethnic Slurs” and I remember it suddenly being kind of a big deal out of nowhere in the mid 2010’s (not it being on the list, just in general on the corners of the internet I inhabited at the time). Like, my wife watched a lot of Kathleen Lights videos on YouTube at the time, and she had a sign in her background that said something like “gypsy soul” and she got backlash from her viewers.
I don’t know that anybody in my daily life even now, here in Metro Detroit, considers it one or uses it as one. I know I don’t use it anymore, really besides this comment chain. There are tons of immigrants from all over around here, I definitely don’t want to offend anyone. I will hear it from time to time, in a general way to refer to people who are or want to be kind of nomads. Like, a positive thing. Idk, I still don’t say it anymore.
All labels are slurs now, except for the word “label”. I think that’s still okay (and do look at Wikipedia’s list of ethnic slurs, you say racist stuff every day without knowing!
"this word is Algongquin for ‘friend’
SLUR HOW DARE YOU
I won’t repeat the “Algongquin word for ‘friend’” because… you know. Because everything is stupid now
Europe when muslim immigrants
I think that a nation can impose rules on how their culture relates to others. There is nothing wrong in a state that’s purpose is to presereve its culture’s majority, language and so on. The problem is not immigration itself, but the causes (neocolonialism).
The problem is that right-wing populists make a career on promising solving problem they caused themselves. The liberal multicultural utopia cant sustain itself, and doesnt have any long-term benefits to the humanity or a particular society.
There is nothing wrong in a state that’s purpose is to presereve its culture’s majority, language and so on.
I have to disagree with you entirely.
First off, persistent culture and language are both illusions. Culture of a region changes dramatically due to circumstances and progress even without the influence of immigration. Language not only changes across time but across regions. The American vernacular spoken in Atlanta is distinct from Chicago or Los Angeles, or Seattle.
Secondly, intrinsic non-mainstream and counter-culture groups are going to be marginalized, and as Dr. King observed there’s a pipeline from not worthy to be my neighbor to genocide. And history continuously bears this out. Culture includes the chattelization of women. It includes the criminalization of LGBT+. It includes the persecution of other religions, of other ministries of the same religion. It includes preserving commercial monopolies. Culture includes the preservation of sociopolitical hierarchies and dynastic power.
Culture is blood and soil.
In the US today, the culture war is over the genocide of immigrants and LGBT+ and the ultimately exclusion of everyone who is not MAGA and white Christian nationalist. It is about the genocide of everyone not part of the movement in the name of white supremacy. And ultimately MAGA will start cutting into its own. The fascists always do.
Give me diversity, equity and inclusion. Give me pluralistic liberal democracy that values human rights over property rights, that values rule of law. In that environment, the cultures will sort themselves out, and blend into regional variations unique to the area. We don’t need moral guardians trying to tell society what it should be.
And, then we can have Chicago-style pizza and New-York-style pizza.
We can have Methodism, Catholicism, Sunni Islam, Hindi, and Atheism in the same city. (And hundreds of other faiths, spiritual dispositions and identity communities.)
We can allow people to explore sexual and gender identity on their own terms, and find there’s even a letter for them in the alphabet.
We can have an economy that isn’t run by only a dozen conglomerate corporations selling us shoddy goods for fixed prices. Rather we can regulate the economy to serve the people, with robust competition and state-sponsored science.
We can have a society that is shaped by the will of the people, rather than the personal preferences of a handful of oligarchs.
No, culture has lost the plot, and no culture should be privileged in a society over any other. Whenever we allow it, xenophobia dominates, and genocide follows.
I will structure my answers accordingly to the spaces. If I missed something you can point it out, I’d like to not reduct the discussion to one specific issue , thus making the argument kinda pointless. Also my level of english is kinda bad, so I might make no sense sometimes or repeat some statements.
First off, persistent culture and language are both illusions. Culture of a region changes dramatically due to circumstances and progress even without the influence of immigration. Language not only changes across time but across regions. The American vernacular spoken in Atlanta is distinct from Chicago or Los Angeles, or Seattle. Secondly, intrinsic non-mainstream and counter-culture groups are going to be marginalized, and as Dr. King observed there’s a pipeline from not worthy to be my neighbor to genocide. And history continuously bears this out. Culture includes the chattelization of women. It includes the criminalization of LGBT+. It includes the persecution of other religions, of other ministries of the same religion. It includes preserving commercial monopolies. Culture includes the preservation of sociopolitical hierarchies and dynastic power.
What I meant is rather that some societies mainly are separated by language, interests and culture. And I did not mean ethnic nationalism, it is absurd thing. And I was not saying local culture should have a legal privilege. Also there is no such thing as presistent culture and language, new languages appear, older disappear. Cultures merge and emerge, but when we are talking about having state without any kinda local dominant culture and societal rules that everyone just grew with, it is unsustainable and unrealistic to happen, because people really often just don’t want to live in foreign countries, people really like living among people they some common things like history, language or relatives. I did not mean that immigration being big factor yet you cant ignore it as well, because eventually it does influence the culture a lot. My message was critique of the liberal idea of multi-cultural state, where there is dominance of local culture(s). Why im against of this idea is because it destroys the pluralism of different cultures meaning destroys diversity of mindsets, that is actually a important thing for humanity in terms of progress. Also what you pointed out is the consequence of religious influence on the cultures. Christianity and any other abrahamic religions actually caused lots of censorship, and added useless complexities into many european and southern cultures, including contributing a lot to the gender inequality. Not to say that that’s the only reason, the patriarchy started much sooner than the rise of monoteism and abrahamic religions , but lots of thing we see as chattelization, misoginy etc. originates from religious doctrines. Im not against transformation of societies into more tolerant, genderly equal, hierarchless societies(India reference?). It is just that multi-cultural heaven is not happening (if the multi-culture means state without any majority culture(s))
In the US today, the culture war is over the genocide of immigrants and LGBT+ and the ultimately exclusion of everyone who is not MAGA and white Christian nationalist. It is about the genocide of everyone not part of the movement in the name of white supremacy. And ultimately MAGA will start cutting into its own. The fascists always do.
I have no idea about US. Im from eastern Europe. I dont even exactly know what culture war is :/ .
Give me diversity, equity and inclusion. Give me pluralistic liberal democracy that values human rights over property rights, that values rule of law. In that environment, the cultures will sort themselves out, and blend into regional variations unique to the area. We don’t need moral guardians trying to tell society what it should be.
I actually agree with it. but also *direct democracy, and *socialism . But also I think nation can decide itself whether they want to integrate the migrants or give autonomy. For example in Estonia we have lots of russians from USSR , who migrated because there were much better living conditions than in RSFSR, and i used to live in russian neighborhoods and even ghettos. And integrating russian schools into estonian was actually one of the best things in terms of integrating them, and making children learn estonian on a near-native level. This helped decline the segregation and isolation of russians from estonian society. . But at the same time we have a great minority called Võro and Seto, who are endangered languages-cultures. They need absolutely opposite approach, they need more autonomy and deserve state-funding for võro-seto education, translation of books, programs etc. This is kinda thing I mean when I say “a nation can impose rules on how their culture relates to others.”
And, then we can have Chicago-style pizza and New-York-style pizza. We can have Methodism, Catholicism, Sunni Islam, Hindi, and Atheism in the same city. (And hundreds of other faiths, spiritual dispositions and identity communities.) We can allow people to explore sexual and gender identity on their own terms, and find there’s even a letter for them in the alphabet. We can have an economy that isn’t run by only a dozen conglomerate corporations selling us shoddy goods for fixed prices. Rather we can regulate the economy to serve the people, with robust competition and state-sponsored science. We can have a society that is shaped by the will of the people, rather than the personal preferences of a handful of oligarchs.
Based? Except im against building new religious building or helping preserve religions, because they harmed humanity a lot. Im not against theistic views though, the theory that there might be some creature that made everything we see, can totally exist. It is not scientifically provable, but it doesn’t force people to hate themselves for being humans in a doctrine manner
No, culture has lost the plot, and no culture should be privileged in a society over any other. Whenever we allow it, xenophobia dominates, and genocide follows. I generally agree with this. You probably just have different US-centered perspective
“We can have a society shaped by the will of the people rather than a handful of oligarchs”
We can(?), but we don’t and won’t. It’s like you and I live in a different world, I don’t have any idea where what you describe exists or when it existed.
Youre describing an American ideal that I’ve never seen. We’ve been xenophobic from 1776 onward. It’s like you have the generic G-rated version of America down, but not anything resembling the real America that I’ve lived in.
MLK for example; he is held to high esteem in USA today, but he accomplished little compared to, say, The Black Panthers, who armed themselves with shotguns and followed police on patrol. THAT is why the civil rights movement progressed. This is the will of the people in action. Every right we’ve gained has been in spite of our political system since at least the 1950s.
Any counter examples would be appreciated. But this is the America that I am from, this is what works
https://www.pushblack.us/news/60s-panthers-policed-police-legacy-continues-today
“we’ve been xenophobic” only if you identify america as the land populated solely by the white male capitalist. Many minorities understand america can be badass if the ethnic majority and then the working class just got their shit together. I’m speaking as one of those minorities. The working class can never earn their fair share as long as the ethnic majority continues to hate minorities.
I will agree that capitalist white men in america are complacent and apathetic towards the plight of minorities. That part of america keeps the good parts of america from shining.
I assume that in your theoretical city of multiple religions, LGBT people have already been eliminated, right? Otherwise it’s not compatible with Islam, Christianity or Judaism at the very least and while the majority of Christians have had their beliefs washed down, Muslims are NOT going to take such bullshit and they WILL demand LGBT people to receive corporeal punishment at the very least, but ideally death penalty.
And why should they not be allowed? That’s part of their faith, their culture. We consider murder and stealing illegal and immoral - they feel about the same way about LGBT, alcohol and pork (in addition to murder and stealing, but of course murder of infidels is usually okay in most religions). Are we not supposed to respect their culture if they live with us?
There is nothing wrong
Says who? Why can there be nothing wrong? Why is 0.000000000000001% wrong too much for you? Why are you so intolerant of any potential moral question about the subject matter? Where do you derive this logic from? Why is it completely free from any amount of criticism? Zero criticism is allowed, according to “there is nothing wrong” logic. “Nothing” is doing a lot of work for that logic, and it demands that any amount of criticism should not be tolerated or entertained. It’s a major fallacy, in my opinion.
My uncle is a completely legal mexican immigrant. My aunt makes killer food. If he were to move to Europe, why is that unsustainable for them? The US was built on mass migration.Every immigration-related moral failure of the US wasn’t because it accepted immigrants, but because it rejected them. This is generation after generation here. Why is Europe incapable of solving it?
Maybe Europe is incapable of solving these issues. But if that’s true, then why is that acceptable to Europeans? If the problem is fundamental to the infrastructure of society itself, why should responsibility fall on immigrants to solve it rather than the society that calls itself liberal univeralist? You can’t just blame the right wing. It’s a societal issue as a whole if it just can’t work.
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Super Space Hitler.jpg
I remember my grandfather in the 90s warning me not to go to close to the “wagon” (a trailer) of “the gypsies” because they “steal children”. I actually wound up over there when I adventured out alone from the camping place. The woman was cutting her husband’s hair and it was the first time I had seen a man with pretty, long, shiny black hair, I was fascinated. They were friendly but “talked weird” (they had an accent). I never understood the hate… because obviously, they didn’t steal me away… but my grandfathers generation left that narrative behind for my parents and my generation to pick up and continue. I whish it could have died with him.
As an American of non-European descent living in the Netherlands, I’m amused at the blank stares I receive when I ask people about where they think the xenophobic, self-serving, and bigoted attitudes that pervade “White America” came from.
Ireland?
those dammed Irish
European countries aren’t all the same
When it comes to general opinions of Romani/gypsies I think all European countries are pretty united.
Netherlands may be an outlier but nobody cares about Roma/Sinti/travellers/gypsies. Here people are racist against Maroccans, Turks and Muslims generally
I think Europe is at least united in a hatred for Muslims, can’t just let people exist in peace, y’know?
cmon man, compare the percentage of gipsies in holland and romania/slovakia/hungary
That’s actually not really helping your argument, if you compare it to the statistics of anti-immigrant sentiments vs actual percentage of immigrants. In most cases, the areas with the lowest amount of immigrants have the highest amount of anti-immigrant sentiments. For example in Germany, you can literally see it on the east-west divide on the map (as with many things). I wouldn’t be surprised if it were similar in the Netherlands, that rural areas are more prone to anti-immigrant stances.
The issues in the countries you’ve mentioned, are usually based on historical and socioeconomic issues, that came up over time. And some countries didn’t exactly do well to get Roma people to trust them, like e.g. Slovakia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V._C._vs._Slovakia
And that is besides the fact that it’s hard to get hard numbers on Roma people, since there are also those who try to hide their origins . You could have a Roma person in your neighbourhood and not even realize.
not sure how did you wash your immigrant bs into this. these folk were here in the last 500 years. they dont count as immigrants anymore. mid and eastern eu failed to integrate, cause there are too many of them (to be honest neither of the parties tried). that is it.
U.S. states aren’t all the same either
That’s why I said it
America has always had racism baked in at the state level (read on the appeasement of slave states, massive fundamental mistake). In modern day this manifests in strong internalized and institutional racism that affects everyone, hence why there’s so much discussion about it.
However, I think the USA is one of the better countries in terms of interpersonal racism. The diversity of the US means that nearly everyone interacts with multiple races/cultures on a daily basis. The country is steadily becoming more diverse (the USA will be flipped to a minority-majority by 2045) so there’s just no practical way to avoid it.
Contrast this with most other countries who don’t necessarily have foundational racism but have had a homogeneous identity nearly forever. For some, broad discussion on diversity and demographics is completely novel in the last few decades; there’s a hypersensitivity at the individual level that hasn’t adapted yet.
Anecdotally, I’ve seen some of the most shocking unacknowledged prejudice outside of the US (some EU and strongly in Asia). Like “This waiter is too brown” and “[Turks, Romani, Indians] aren’t real people” said in total earnest. I’m sure I could hear similar things in obscure parts of Northern Idaho, but I didn’t expect it in major cities in developed countries.
Americans really mad about euro calling them out huh.
Curiously, the Romani came up when Congress was discussing the scope of the 14th and 15th amendments to the Constitution of the United States. The argument was if birthright citizenship was universal, we’d have to give it to them.
At the time, sounder minds prevailed.
Nobody likes migratory cultures. But it also appears nobody likes cultures too different from their own. And once we start cutting out ones we think are too alien, we rapidly move towards cutting into those who worship on the wrong day.
If you want a culture to stop migrating, maybe facilitate their access to homes? I’ve yet to encounter a culture that doesn’t like comfort and convenience.
Lol, remember french history between catholic and protestants ?
All you need to know about European racism is that Prince Andrew is the second least popular Royal ahead of the black lady.
Source ?
ITT: Europeans screaming into the black mirror.
This was certainly true 20 years ago
They were going door to door in northern Ireland looking for brown people just a few months ago.
Pretty much all of European progressive tolerance went in the trash can after the Syrian refugee crisis.
I’m an immigrant to Europe and when the Syrian refugee crisis happened 10 years ago, I knew it will cause tensions.
I think people are generally tolerant of foreigners but something unconscious in the mind of many people is triggered and think “okay too many”.
But at the same time, something that the anti-immigration and the far right never addressed is that the world, not just Europe, is experiencing population decline. Counries simply need more people to work. The far-right blame the foreigners but never have any plans afterwards to address the population decline. Or rather, now that I think about it, they won’t say it until foreigners are gone, but they want to force back women to baby churning roles. I remember arguing with a crypto-fascist who is anti-globalist and he doesn’t have answers to the declining workforce apart from implying to force women to make more babies. It is though as if the low birth rate isn’t to do with the economic system not being family friendly. Have we heard the far-right say they will increase the wages? No. It’s because, ultimately, the far-right are corporatists and their goal is to not empower workers.
Oh, they absolutely say that thing about women. It just gets overheard over all their anti-immigrant screeching.
sadly correct. but its not the same people ^^
Europeans love how fascist the US is right now, makes their professional fascism much more palletable.
