I had a better way of articulating it, but I went with that.
So for the longest time I felt like I shouldn’t give people reasons behind an answer because you can put in the reasons behind it can sway their decisions. Also I know that I had incomplete data set. Humans do lean on each other to think and you can inject what idea and have it spread.
To attempt something more coherent. You can do propaganda when you try to reason. It’s just natural to talk as if they know and just bridge the gaps in their knowledge with any old phrase
They are nested concepts. Manipulation is a method of convincing. It is just convincing using surreptitious/covert means.
Are you transparent with what your goals are. Are you giving them correct information. Are you giving them all important information and not lying by omission.
Convincing someone is an attempt to manipulate them into changing their behaviour.
Giving your reasoning seems to me like you are attempting to educate. Nothing wrong with that as long as people are asking for your opinion.
Educated seem like a lionization. But I have adopted the mindset socializing the information and doing my best to communicate. Also I shouldn’t worry too much about being wrong when convincing people. If I’m pushed on something I do my best to say how I know.
You convince someone with the truth. You manipulate someone with lies.
You can Mani people with the truth like with threats you intende to pull through on.
Would “give me your wallet, or I shoot you” really be manipulative? It seems more just openly aggressive.
Yeah but the mugger could say “I was just convince him about what he should do with his life. Nothing wrong with that”. I’m being funny. I was thinking more like I tell you about how I beat the shit out of windows users then ask what the best OS. Guess that’s just concepts of vague and open threats
(edit: sent mid sentence on accident)
Every interaction between humans is manipulation. Every single one - including not saying something.
With that framing: Your question sounds to me about the negative connotation (“being manipulative”) - and for me that’s simple: sincerity and intent.
Before coming to your last paragraph I go with an extreme as example, abuse, because it’s so black and white:
I try to convince you to leave your abusive partner. I try to alter your whole life - because I’m convinced that it’s the right thing for you.
If I tell you the same thing to get off with your current partner or to harm you, it’s manipulative.
Now for your example: For me it’s the foundation of our human interaction to bridge gaps - social, communicative, personal.
We always have incomplete data sets (if only about the perception, interpretation and knowledge of the other people around us). We’re always in an interpretation gap.
Now if you withhold information other humans are worse off, even ignoring what other people call “the objective truth”: they don’t know where you stand, what your reasoning is and what values you hold. All of this shines through even when just saying, as a random example, “I don’t want bacon” - this can be health, religion, mood, taste and a miryad of other things related that will help other people connect (or avoid) you.
In short: don’t break other people’s heads! Every human needs to evaluate information they get - as long as you’re sincere and don’t try to evoke a behavior that you know is against the best of your surrounding you wouldn’t fall into “manipulative” in my book.
Every interaction between humans is manipulation. Every single one - including not saying something.
I disagree with this, it’s overly broadening the definition. If you’re upfront and clear with someone, for example saying “your partner is abusive, with these exact examples”, that’s not manipulation because it’s not underhanded or subtle. It’s just trying to help. I don’t think we have a good word in English for “changing someone’s mind or behaviour” in a neutral or positive way. At least I’m not remembering it right now. Maybe persuade?
For it to be manipulation you would have to be sneaky about it. I’m not a manipulative person so it’s hard to think of examples but something like, making it seem like their current partner is cheating on them via clever wordplay and deliberate clues left lying around “by accident”. Even if the end goal is good, the method is manipulative and clandestine. Honesty is the difference here. In the first example we were upfront and clear with our intentions and beliefs.
I get where you’re coming from:
I gave the foundational definition of “manipulation” - as in “manipulate the lever”, to change the state of something - The reason I started with it is simple: I don’t want readers to assume the choice is between “not manipulating” by not interacting. Remember that the OP used “manipulation m” and “altering perspective” basically synonymous in their post - that’s why it was important to me to relate to that part.
In another context I’d start closer to what you’ve described! :)
Oh yeah I see what you mean now. My bad for misreading it
They really are the exact same thing, it’s just that one has a more negative connotation than the other. I don’t think there is a line where one becomes the other.
If you like the results, you were convinced, if you don’t, then you were manipulated.
If you like the results, you were convinced, if you don’t, then you were manipulated.
Yeah, it does get used that way sometimes. Which is, ironically, kind of manipulative.
All communication is attempted manipulation. That’s not bad. Manipulation is about changing someone else’s behavior. There are unethical ways to do this (eg. threat of violence, extortion) and there are ethical ways to do this (education, presenting factual evidence, positive reinforcement) and some that are more situational (deception, disincentives, horse trading).
Avoiding manipulation is neither practical nor particularly virtuous. It just makes you a doormat, a mugwump, a fence-sitter. We all affect those around us every day, and acknowledging that is the first step in making sure those interactions are a positive force in the world and the lives of those around us.
Arguably, violence and extortion are also situational. States exist on a foundation of use of force, and most people are fine with that.
Arguably, though we are primarily discussing interpersonal conduct in this thread. I will additionally quibble by pointing out that while violence itself is often necessary, the threat of violence is a separate concern; and one I myself find unpalatable in interpersonal relationships.
The central question for me is always: are you trying to make them do something they don’t want to, that wouldn’t be in their interest nor the interest of the greater good, and are you being deceptive.
Example 1: You’re discussing something political. Part of that is often trying to convince someone that your opinion is right. Your believe your opinion is right, and you believe your opinion contributes to the greater good. Not manipulation.
Example 2: You’re creating propaganda. You’re trying to convince masses of people of something, you’re putting the information together in a deceptive manner, and you’re trying to further your own interests. Manipulation.
Example 3: Someone’s depressed, and you’re trying to get them to come on a walk with you, because you believe it would help their mental health. They don’t want to, but you believe it would be in their best interest, since they’re isolating themselves and it’s not doing them any good. Not manipulation.
Example 4: you want to borrow someone’s car. They don’t initially want to lend it to you. You offer to grab groceries for them and fill up their tank. They figure that in that case, they would be OK with lending you their car. Not manipulation.
Example 5: you want to borrow someone’s car. They don’t want to lend it to you. You remind them of the time they accidentally broke something in your house so that they feel guilty and oblige. This was solely in your own interest. Manipulation.
I would also like to hear other people persoective on that.
Because obvious answer would be to convince them on subconscious level instead by directly convincind them.
But a mere praise can often change someone interest and even values.
It gets even trickier if we are talking about raising a kid. You actually want them to adopt your values etc… You are supposed to praise the behaviour you want. Especially if they are to small to understand reasoning. And you fully understand you are completely shapping their personality on a level they do not understand.
So I do not know. Maybe all of that is manipulation but not all manipulation is bad?
I got a better answer just by reading a definition of manipulation:
to change by deceptive or unfair means so as to serve one’s purpose
It is as much about the means as it is about the purpose. So if you are manipulating a kid so they behave in a way that will help him get throug life this is not manipulation. But if you manipulate them into something that only serves you… Yeah that is manipulation.
So in case of convincing someone in a debate it depends. If you goal is to win a debate by manipulation, so you can feel as a winner, that is manipulation. But if you want yo educate them this is not.
You can shape the personality of adults if you really wanted. Children will take after their parents, but that could be because of genetics.
So if you wanted to go by dictionary definitions “serve one’s purpose” can be expanded to parasitism and and symbiosis. You can to see for mutually beneficial purposes. Or you can just see for purely selfish purposes and at the cost of the person you’re receiving (scam).
When you lie or leave out important information about whatever the subject is
When they say no, and that’s final/to drop it, and you still try to convince them.
Damn. You’re gonna have to accept people will keep shooting their shot in annoying ways
I had a friend who would not take no for an answer. He gave me an ultimatum. We are no longer friends.
When you get an ultimatum whip out your dick/strap on. But nah I would struggle with ultimatums and hard decisions
when you want them do something at thier expense, like convincing them to drive you everywhere or live rentfree at thier property in indefinitely, or isolating a SO/ or anyone(extreme) so they are more dependent on you, usually these forms require deception as well, or emotional guilt tripping.
I have found, perhaps unfortunately, people just talk because they want to talk, and don’t necessarily want to welcome new information. Doesn’t mean you can’t show that you disagree with something they’re saying, like “no, I’m not sure that’s quite right”.
And if they wanna ask why ask first if they really want to learn something new or not. But even just challenging them with “I don’t agree” can be enough of a statement in and of itself and it’s gentle.
When you present why you believe something, never insinuate what you presume they do or do not know, be graceful, humble, and listen to whatever bullshit they say after to defend themselves cause that’s usually just self soothing and doesn’t mean they necessarily believe it either.
Challenging someone’s opinions is socially difficult right now and that’s exhausting for me, but some things just have to be done, in this case being more gracious than is reasonable. Do not “correct” people, just say what is true, and don’t enter a debate, that’s enough most of the time. If someone earnestly wants to learn, just present the information as you know it to be, and let them decide however long it takes.
Another point. You’re not responsible for someone else’s knowledge or lack thereof. It’s actually not really your business what people think and that’s a good thing. The best you can do is be there when someone wants to learn something new, or find people that like to learn as avidly as you do
I see it as they don’t take in all the information they could from a conversation or interaction or process it as fast as they could. Which is fine I tune people out if I get bored enough.
I do have that issue of asserting myself can hurt the person I’m talking too. Like people can get upset if you told them their keys are here they put something in a different location than they remember. So corrections can be challenges.
I just say try your best to understand the person you’re talking to and do it as fast as possible because you never know how long you have them.
Weed is burning my brain
I think manipulation takes some agency away from the other person. Like you withhold info or you use coercion.
If you’re not using deception, or trying to elicit strong feelings, you’re definitely in the clear. I’m not sure if I’ve ever heard a dry, completely logical and factual argument called a manipulation, and if I have, that was itself a deceptive manipulation.
After that, it’s a normative term, so there’s a grey zone. Sometimes, deception is actually socially expected. At the other end of the spectrum, “nobody else will love you” or gaslighting someone to think they’re crazy are definitely manipulative. In between you might have things where opinions vary.
Interesting I want to illicit strong emotions (mostly right wingers and now Lemmy users :-P).
Dry and factual argument could be a misnomer. There’s data and the argument would presumably transfer raw data into something humans can understand. Like simulation of a bridge falling apart would be a spreadsheet effectively but it could be rendered into a video or a text description.
But that’s just “the world is different than your experience” nonsense
