• HiddenLayer555@lemmy.ml
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    17 hours ago

    As long as China and by extension socialism remain the evil boogieman, the Western ruling class will NEVER be threatened by the people they rule. That’s why they must make you think China is bad by any means. The West does anything? China is worse so you can’t complain. People will be walked into volcanos chanting “at least it’s not China!”

    The instant people in the West stop pearl clutching about China (not even support them, not even not dislike them, just stop caring about a country half a world away and focus on how bad life in the West really is regardless of how well or poorly China is doing) is the instant the bourgoisie becomes endangered.

    • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOPM
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      17 hours ago

      It’s incredible how effective this tactic is, especially given that most people in the west will never travel to China to see it for themselves.

  • Egonallanon@feddit.uk
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    1 day ago

    China is the enemy because they’re selling lots of cheap solar panels and this is evil somehow.

    Also electric cars but that actually is evil because fuck cars.

    • 小莱卡@lemmygrad.ml
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      1 day ago

      China’s evilness goes as far as producing so much of these solar panels that the sheer volume makes the prices plummet, how evil is that!

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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      1 day ago

      The PRC also builds a ton of rail, EVs as a supplement to that aren’t a terrible idea, especially without needing to redesign cities from the ground up to be more walkable.

      • Soot [any]@hexbear.net
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        1 day ago

        without needing to redesign cities from the ground up to be more walkable

        Which honestly China is also constantly doing

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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          1 day ago

          Yep, they have the capability to do so industrially and via strong planning infrastructure. However, many of the countries China exports significant amounts of EVs to lack the same capabilities, so it’s still positive in the move towards electification.

      • Egonallanon@feddit.uk
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        1 day ago

        They are and arguably doing the best in the world at it but its still pretty poor. Intercity mode share is still majority road travel and turning that all to EVs is a terrible idea as Tue amount of charging stations you’d need to support it just isn’t feasible and stands to waste a huge amount of resources, continue the massive micro plastic pollution issue road vehicles cause and put a massive strain on electrical grids.

          • Egonallanon@feddit.uk
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            1 day ago

            They only really make sense in journeys under 100km, otherwise we’re just perpetuating many of the same problems ICE cars cause. Even then a lot of those shorter journeys can be replaced with light rail and urban redesign.

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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              1 day ago

              Yes, but the time and resource scale to complete light rail and urban redesign is far larger than supplementing with EVs. I’d love to phase out personal cars in the long run, working to gradually expand light rail, HSR, and urban redesign, but between right now and the future where the aforementioned redesign is dominant, EVs help lower emissions and promote electrification over fossil fuel usage, reducing noise pollution and climate pollution at the same time.

              • Egonallanon@feddit.uk
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                1 day ago

                Not really no. If the capital that has been invested into EVs over the last 10/15 years had gone into those things we’d be in a much better position than we are now. The choice to go with EVs over rail was always one driven by capital interests and political will particularly in the west were the automotive firms have a firm hold on governments and where the infrastructure money goes. The right now solution is to stop going along a poor path that at its best is a halfhearted fix and move efforts to an industry that can actually meaningfully reduce humanity’s overall impact on climate change.

                • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                  1 day ago

                  China isn’t going for EVs because of the interests of capital, but because building rail takes time. In the western, capitalist countries, it’s indeed a consequence of commodification of transit and trying to sell more cars. China is full-throttle on both rail and EVs.

  • kittenzrulz123@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    2 days ago

    Its funny how the same uneducated liberals who have never read any theory somehow simultaneously claim that China is just “mixed economy” yet constantly talk about how they think Scandinavia is socialism

    • godisidog [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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      1 day ago

      claim that China is just “mixed economy”

      sometimes I’m just like “yeah sure, whatever you want to believe, it’s still better than what we have here”.

      I don’t really care if China is “real socialism” or not if they’re making lives better for their people without destroying the world. It’s not my perfect system but at least it’s real.

      • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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        1 day ago

        The problem with “mixed economy” framing is that no economy is pure, and every economy has a principle aspect. There’s no such thing as a state with class “harmony,” so one class must be on top. China is socialist because public ownership is principle, Scandinavian countries are capitalist because private ownership is principle.

        The only way to end this is for all production and distribution to be collectivized, abolishing class, and therefore class struggle eventually, which requires protracted periods of socialist transition.

      • abbiistabbii@lemmy.blahaj.zonebanned_from_community_badge
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        1 day ago

        The Ministry of State Security. They regularly go after dissidents, journalists and minorities, including dissidents abroad and ethnic minorities seen as a threat.

        Just because one has high speed rail and healthcare doesn’t mean it’s not an authoritarian state.

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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          1 day ago

          Having an internal security agency isn’t the same as a “gestapo.” The PRC isn’t killing its civilians en masse like the US Empire does. The PRC does go after dissidents, but it’s important to recognize that a dissident against the US is fighting against capitalism and imperialism, while dissidents in China are fighting against socialism. Ignoring the class character of the two countries and equating them based on form, rather than essence, is a critical error. And no, ethnic minorities are not seen as a threat in China.

          Both the PRC and the US Empire are “authoritarian,” as all states are. States are formalized authority wielded by a given ruling class, after all. The form is therefore similar, but the essence is qualitatively different, for in the US Empire the imperialist capitalists control the state and private ownership is principle, while in the PRC the working classes control the state and public ownership is principle.

          By principle, I mean governing the large firms and key industries, not whichever is larger by GDP or employment, as whoever controls the large firms and key industries, finance sector, etc. controls the entire economy, as the rest relies on it.

          We can see a dramatic difference in how people view democracy in the US Empire, compared to the PRC, due to this:

          This is why we must not merely analyze form, but essence. Otherwise we miss the essential differences driving dramatically different results. We must not see merely what is similar, but what is different, and why.

          • turdas@suppo.fibanned_from_community_badge
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            1 day ago

            dissidents in China are fighting against socialism.

            Or just authoritarianism and all that entails.

            • RiverRock@lemmy.ml
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              1 day ago

              Hey dawg quick question what the fuck is “authoritarianism” and what does it entail? Because everyone is have ever asked has only been able to say something that boils down to “state”.

              Can you name a non “authoritarian” country?

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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              1 day ago

              “Authoritarianism” essentially means the use of state power, all states are therefore “authoritarian.” However, states are not neutral in the class struggle. Instead, they are active participants, and subjugated to a definite class. In China, public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy and the working classes control the state. Fighting against the socialist state undermines socialism, rather than aiding in socialist construction. Over 90% of the population of the PRC supports the government, this is a useful indicator for knowing that the state serves the people, not wealthy capitalists.

              • turdas@suppo.fibanned_from_community_badge
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                1 day ago

                Not all states commit genocide forced re-education or run a draconian nation-wide internet censorship program.

                In fact the latter point is a pretty good example of how these polls you’re using as a source are not reliable. The substack article you link says that

                When given the statement “Everyone in my country can freely express their opinion on political and social topics”, only 18% of people in China disagreed (compared to 27% in the US).

                China doing heavy censorship of public discourse is objective reality – a few years ago they heavily suppressed the social media trend of “laying flat” for example, because they were afraid of the public questioning the rat race.

                It’s a well known phenomenon that people raised under authoritarian systems with heavy thoughts control will frequently answer the “socially acceptable” thing even on anonymous polls – this is what the state has trained them from birth to do. Another effect that explains the incongruity in e.g. a larger proportion of Chinese respondents thinking their system is democratic than French respondents is that words like democracy do not mean the same thing in China as they do in France.

                • BrainInABox@lemmy.ml
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                  24 hours ago

                  It’s a well known phenomenon that people raised under authoritarian systems with heavy thoughts control will frequently answer the “socially acceptable” thing even on anonymous polls – this is what the state has trained them from birth to do. Another effect that explains the incongruity in e.g. a larger proportion of Chinese respondents thinking their system is democratic than French respondents is that words like democracy do not mean the same thing in China as they do in France.

                  “During the cold war, the anticommunist ideological framework could transform any data about existing communist societies into hostile evidence. If the Soviets refused to negotiate a point, they were intransigent and belligerent; if they appeared willing to make concessions, this was but a skillful ploy to put us off our guard. By opposing arms limitations, they would have demonstrated their aggressive intent; but when in fact they supported most armament treaties, it was because they were mendacious and manipulative. If the churches in the USSR were empty, this demonstrated that religion was suppressed; but if the churches were full, this meant the people were rejecting the regime’s atheistic ideology. If the workers went on strike (as happened on infrequent occasions), this was evidence of their alienation from the collectivist system; if they didn’t go on strike, this was because they were intimidated and lacked freedom. A scarcity of consumer goods demonstrated the failure of the economic system; an improvement in consumer supplies meant only that the leaders were attempting to placate a restive population and so maintain a firmer hold over them. If communists in the United States played an important role struggling for the rights of workers, the poor, African-Americans, women, and others, this was only their guileful way of gathering support among disfranchised groups and gaining power for themselves. How one gained power by fighting for the rights of powerless groups was never explained. What we are dealing with is a nonfalsifiable orthodoxy, so assiduously marketed by the ruling interests that it affected people across the entire political spectrum.”

                  • Michael Parenti
                • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                  1 day ago

                  The PRC isn’t committing genocide against Uyghur peoples in Xinjiang, just like South Africa wasn’t committing “white genocide,” nor is there “christian genocide” in Nigeria. These are all examples of atrocity propaganda, where the west heavily distorts and often fabricates narratives in order to foment resistance and to give their own populations free excuses to not support anti-imperialism, in essence supporting it.

                  In the case of Xinjiang, the area is crucial in the Belt and Road Initiative, so the west backed sepratist groups in order to destabilize the region. China responded with vocational programs and de-radicalization efforts, which the west then twisted into claims of “genocide.” Nevermind that the west responds to seperatism with mass violence, and thus re-education programs focused on rehabilitation are far more humane, the tool was used both for outright violence by the west into a useful narrative to feed its own citizens. I highly recommend Qiao Collective’s Xinjiang: A Resource and Report Compilation for more on this subject, but on to your main points.

                  It’s funny that you mention that the polling in China, despite consistency and often being gathered by western orgs like the Ash Center, is unreliable. The same journalist, Jason Hickel, wrote Support for China: Is the data accurate? showing that, yes, it is. The PRC does employ censorship, but this is directed against that which undermines socialist construction, including liberal and pro-capitalist narratives.

                  The west practices censorship too, it’s just more evenly spread out between state and private sector. Tik Tok, for example, is now censoring pro-Palestinian views, after being purchased by a western company. The west widely reports on Chinese censorship while obfuscating its own, often citing “free speech” paradoxically in the instance of private corporations doing so.

                  It’s a well known phenomenon that people raised under authoritarian systems with heavy thoughts control will frequently answer the “socially acceptable” thing even on anonymous polls.

                  This phenomenon is well-known, yes, but not actually true. “Brainwashing” as in “thought control,” does not actually exist. People rationally agree with what they percieve is in their self-interest. We all do this. China does not have the ability to control thoughts, nor is it any more “authoritarian” than capitalist countries. China uses its authority in favor of the working classes, while the west uses it in favor of capitalists and imperialists.

                  Another effect that explains the incongruity in e.g. a larger proprotion of Chinese respondents thinking their system is democratic than French respondents is that words like democracy do not mean the same thing in China as they do in France.

                  This is actually a decent point. What does democracy mean in China? Rule by the majority, and the state acting in the interests of the majority. In, say, France, it usually gets reduced to vulgar methods of liberal democracy. Candidates are largely pre-approved by the capitalist system, filtered by campaign expenses and the capitalist media, preventing meaningful working class representation.

                  In China, they have direct elections for local representatives, which elect further “rungs,” laddering to the top. The top then has mass polling and opinion gathering. This combination of top-down and bottom-up democracy ensures effective results. For more on this, see Professor Roland Boer’s Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance.

                  China has the superior system for working in the interests of the working people, while France has the superior system for protecting corporate, imperialist interests.

              • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                1 day ago

                I do think “smooth-brained” is a bit ableist. Westerners believe bourgeois narratives due to complicity, rationally, not out of lacking mental faculties. Masses, Elites, and Rebels: The Theory of “Brainwashing” is a good article explaining that process. The masses aren’t stupid, gullible, intelligent, or righteous, but rational, including acting in what they percieve to be their self-interest.

                I’m loath to admit it, but I do think that if we don’t hold ourselves to extremely high standards, reactionaries will exploit any crack in rhetoric to obfuscate the logic of our beliefs and arguments. We should take no easy victories.

                • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOPM
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                  Let’s go with credulous then. I agree that ultimately it comes down to these narratives working because it’s what these people want to believe already. It’s just confirmation bias. All that said, I do think ridicule has a place as well. Engaging with obvious trolling ends up validating them, as if the point they’re making has enough merit to be engaged with.

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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              1 day ago

              How so? The MSS is qualitatively different because it’s in support of socialism, not capitalism and imperialism. ICE is an anti-immigration service that is murdering Statesian protestors as we speak simply for opposing open fascism and protecting their neighbors. Equating the two based on the fact that both are security services used by states, and ignoring which class each state serves, is how you make false comparisons.

              To use an analogy, your logic equates unions with capitalist cartels, because both are forms of class organization. Without analyzing the class character, and focusing purely on the form, we lose sight of which is progressive and which is reactionary.

          • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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            While likely true, we should focus on education over attacking. I don’t care for tone policing, but letting assertions hang without challenge doesn’t allow either the person making the claim nor any onlookers to gain a deeper understanding. Lenin taught this well, as sharp-tongued as he was, he always made sure to clearly and concisely refute the positions he was criticizing, big and small. It is this way that we grow the movement. As Sankara said:

            We must never stop explaining. We know that when the people understand, they cannot help but follow us.

          • abbiistabbii@lemmy.blahaj.zonebanned_from_community_badge
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            1 day ago

            Quite the opposite. Anarchist, or at least anarchist adjacent.

            Just because your colour of state capitalism is red and the thugs breaking heads have a red star on their caps doesn’t make their violence against the people justified.

            The difference between a chud and a tankie is the colour of uniform. Cope.

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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              The PRC is socialist, as already explained up here, as public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy and the working classes in control of the state. Nobody says violence is justified because of an aesthetic difference, but because of qualitatively different class relations. ICE breaks the heads of the working classes, the MSS is used to oppress capitalists and those who seek to undermine socialist construction.

              The difference between a chud and a “tankie,” ie a communist, is that chuds serve the capitalist class and seek to perpetuate the extreme predation of the international working classes by a small class of imperialist capitalists, while the communists seek to uplift the working classes and establish a more equitable society for all. Both tend to wear uniforms, but for entirely different purposes.

              You focus too much on form while ignoring essence. To chloroken’s credit, this focus on form over essence is an aspect of liberalism, it’s idealist rather than materialist. You may claim to have anarchist sympathies, but liberal ideology seems to be the basis of your thought-process.

  • TheLeadenSea@sh.itjust.worksbanned_from_community_badge
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    1 day ago

    Remind me if you can criticise the government in America without getting whisked off to a camp or disappeared? Oh yeah, you can.

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      The US has the highest prison population in the world, both per capita and by total numbers, along with a draconian legal system that locks people up for decades for minor crimes. They also literally do have immigrant prison camps currently holding ~30k people, many of whom have committed no crimes except for “not having papers”.

      The US absolutely does dissappear many people.

    • RiverRock@lemmy.ml
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      This morning I saw a video taken from outside an ICE concentration camp. You can hear dozens of children screaming and crying inside. Then a guard orders the person filming to turn off their camera and leave.

    • Aria@lemmygrad.ml
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      You can’t even criticise the USA government while in other countries without risking being whisked off to heaven.

    • Jerkface (any/all)@lemmy.ca
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      A mere three months ago, you could still post this comment and not be laughed at. Like boots and hearts, when things start to fall apart, they really fall apart.