Does anyone have a method of deprogramming liberals who believe in the Uyghur genocide? I have a new friend who is good on Palestine but awful on Xinjiang. Very AP-brained and trusting of western propaganda. He’s well-read and is open to having his ideas challenged, so looking for something well-sourced or he’d probably disregard it. I found a debunking video that came out right after the original Zenz “report” that references a 51-page leaked document released by Zenz. It goes through 6 points and shows how Zenz’s own documents contradicts his claims of human rights abuses. The issue is that it’s from a small creator and I can’t find the referenced document, so I can’t point him directly to the facts and bypass the youtube video, which would likely be seen as insufficient.
This is part 1 of the debunk:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Ceb2B5oql8A
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Does anyone have a method of deprogramming liberals
I wish.
Not to be too… crass? I hope not insensitive at least… but lately I have had no trouble understanding how the excesses of the cultural revolution happened and why in principle the thing needed to happen (even if it had some/many unjustifiable expressions and undesirable outcomes.)
In a post-October 7th world, the counter is simply “so where are the goddamn bodies then?” It takes less than a minute to find hundreds of photos and videos of Palestinian kids with their brains falling out of their blown off skulls and Palestinians carrying bags of viscera of what’s left of their murdered relatives. Xinjiang is more than 4500 times larger than Gaza, so there should be around 4k more footage of genocide in Xinjiang if there was an actual genocide.
“B-b-but cultural genocide” Cultural genocide always follows or is concurrent with genocide genocide because people never willingly surrender their culture without putting up a fight first, which means the people most able to put up a fight have to be exterminated first in order for cultural genocide to actually work. So where are the goddamn bodies then?
“B-b-but seeseepee surveillance state” More than the Zionist entity being a surveillance state itself and pioneer of surveillance technology? The Zionist entity has completely surrounded Gaza as an open prison, which is very easy to do when Palestinians are crammed into a rectangle that’s only 365 km^2. Nothing goes in or out without the Zionist entity’s knowledge (except for paragliders apparently lmao) and yet we still see footage of dead Palestinians every day. So where are the goddamn bodies then?
So many of them straight up believe the CIA/Falun Gong organ trade propaganda and probably assume the bodies were recycled and the remains destroyed.
I agree that we’d know if this shit had actually happened. But your average liberal probably imagines a Jewish holocaust type of efficiency and cleanup. They just don’t have more than a smug attitude about it because Uyghur people are double damned for being Asian and Muslim.
In fact that’s the thing, you can’t convince a lib because the lib does not wish to be convinced. The lib doesn’t care about the Uyghurs and their alleged slaughter (didn’t happen) because the lib only cares to the extent they can reinforce their Sinophobic and orientalist attitudes (and by extension their own supremacy / western chauvinism.)
“Uyghur Genocide” is just a half remembered factoid they can use as a rhetorical smokebomb.
Good example would be Turkey, and how the army acted in Dersim and against YPG, this isn’t defined as cultural genocide but Xinjiang is? Your best proof is redesigning fucking roofs for god’s sake
Hey, there’s also a video of a guy driving around a wall topped with barbed wire and every time there’s any sign he stops the video, a red circle appears, and there’s a camera shutter sound effect. This goes on for 20 minutes and also it’s the guy that almost got deported back to China this week. Guess they figured out deporting a “heroic refugee” wouldn’t support the genocide myth.
Guess they figured out deporting a “heroic refugee” wouldn’t support the genocide myth
Oh did he get a stay of extradition?
Maybe I’m being too naive about how he’d be treated in China, but it would have been inconvenient for the US to send a friendly “enemy of the Chinese state” back to China only for him to just… get on with his life with a more secure future than he probably has in America.
He’d go from being no longer of use to the US to (probably) being a living counterexample to the ridiculous falsehoods they want everyone to swallow uncritically. Like it’d just be an unforced error.
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
Strongest starting point is asking where all the evidence of genocide is in a country with 80% smartphone ownership and a land size of 1666 million square kilometers.
If Israel can’t prevent evidence of genocide in a land size of 22000 square kilometers and a lower smartphone ownership rate, why believe that China could? Where is all the video evidence of atrocities? Do they believe the Chinese is capable of omnipresent ability to prevent and delete video on people’s phones? Nonsense.
Really start with challenging them to think critically about this. You don’t need massive posts of cited content. You need people to use basic critical thinking. They have seen what evidence a real genocide produces, they can use this experience to realise something is wrong about Xinjiang claims.
Once they do accept that there’s obviously something wrong with that. Then move onto longer cited debunks, it is a much better mental state to begin from.
This was my immediate rebuttal. Israel, with all the power of the US and other Western capitalist regimes couldn’t keep evidence of genocide from flooding the internet. He said something about some video of forced labor camps and I mentioned Zenz and his lack of credibility. He didn’t know of Zenz and said he’d look into it. I’ll get into it more the next time we talk or over text tomorrow. It was a brief interaction before I had to move on to other obligations and I couldn’t put a ton of time into it. I completely agree that the smoking gun is that there aren’t thousands of videos of evidence like we have of what’s happening in Gaza. If he tries to pull the “China has complete control over their internet” thing I’m just going to have to drill him on how that’s literally impossible.
There’s no video of forced labor camps obviously because they don’t exist. The only thing they have is the picture of prisoners being blindfolded while being transferred between prisons and people/prisoners at a drug rehab sitting down listening to a lecture. All other forms of evidence literally all come from US gov employees. Like this https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/e9ad4n/i_am_rushan_abbas_uyghur_activist_and_survivor_of/
Your friend needs to realize that all media is controlled by the CIA. Case in point, https://www.npr.org/2019/11/25/782549071/leaked-documents-offer-a-peek-inside-chinas-detention-of-uighurs
How is Zenz a China expert? He doesn’t speak mandarin, he can’t read chinese, and he’s only been to China once. Why don’t they tell the audience he is employed by the US gov in a role that exists to attack “communist” countries (Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation)?
The only thing they have is the picture of prisoners being blindfolded while being transferred between prisons
And that was an old video of IIRC a pyramid scheme being broken up.
and people/prisoners at a drug rehab sitting down listening to a lecture
That was a seminar about education opportunities for prison inmates in general, and the picture was from the official website of the program itself which was IIRC a traveling lecture series that went around to inform inmates and their families about different education options.
Let’s see, there was also a blurry video of a factory, except it was just some random factory in Brazil with the Portuguese text on signs still faintly visible.
And that was an old video of IIRC a pyramid scheme being broken up.
Drug trafficking ring I think
What about the heinous cum farms
Asking the real questions
100% of white “China critics” don’t speak Mandarin but have found a cottage industry that demands content. That laowhy loser who ran off and got locked out of the country, I like to go into his comments sometimes and ruthlessly mock him because he’s not in China and I am.
This makes my heart smile.A Reddit link was detected in your comment. Here are links to the same location on alternative frontends that protect your privacy.
Brief interactions will be rough with this. Requires a pretty solid longer conversation.
In addition to the advice that you’ve already received, my suggestion is that you be ready for him to pivot from genocide to “cultural genocide.” Even taking it completely at face value, it’s a ridiculous talking point in the sense that cultural genocide is awful but it is not at all the same thing as actual genocide, yet people say it to avoid looking like they are significantly backtracking when no, these assholes were talking about systemic mass murder before and that just evaporated into thin air.
I do think the PRC took repressive measures that weren’t all justified, but trying to equate that with genocide with nebulous, vibes based bullshit or sly little word games is unspeakably disgusting.
it’s a ridiculous talking point in the sense that cultural genocide is awful but it is not at all the same thing as actual genocide
Not to mention that as @AssortedBiscuits@hexbear.net said, any serious attempt at “cultural genocide” would probably involve actual genocide because it cannot succeed otherwise.
I mean the worst phase of what was happening in xinjiang occurred in the late 2010s and regardless of whether or not it was excessive; ledditors talk about it as if that period never ended like it is somehow something that has been consistently occurring for the past like 8 years now
Also true (see my use of past tense with “took repressive measures”), but I was trying to just focus on one issue that I thought would be productive for steering the conversation and not getting bamboozled.
I have a new friend who is good on Palestine but awful on Xinjiang.
If he’s at all equating these two things, then I’d argue that he is not good on Palestine.
In all the time it’s supposedly been happening there has not been a single piece of evidence that it actually is beyond blurry screenshots with no context. If Israel can’t even hide their genocide then there is not a fucking chance that the nation with the highest population, highest level of surveillance and highest level of phone ownership can hide one, not to mention Xinjiang literally being a popular tourist destination.
Also the Uyghurs and other ethnic minorities were excluded from the one child policy specifically to prevent an ethnic cleansing.
Not only are ethnic minorities like the Uyghurs excluded from the one child policy they are the only ethnicity who apparently still has their birth rate above replacement level in China so if the CPC was truly committing a genocide it would have been a massive failure.
I’m pretty sure there are currently no restrictions on having children anywhere in China right now (and in fact they are trying to raise the birthrate)
Yeah they did away with them but during the time they had them ethnic minorities were exempt (as were han chinese people in the country who could have up to two children) and the Uyghurs continue with having the highest birthrate.
The CIA was just pissed because the CPC expelled foreign hate preachers and de-radicalized Uighurs, taught them work skills and found them jobs, like any good socialists. The CIA was planning on using their base in Afghanistan to form them into an army to march on Beijing. If the CPC slaughtered them on the way, so much the better, much propaganda to be made from that too.
Is this still a thing? I thought they dropped it during the Biden Admin
The well has likely been poisoned in our generation due to the ongoing Palestinian genocide, which not only shows what a modern-day genocide looks like but also reflects the West’s current contradictory desire to downplay the term “genocide” so that no one can say “what about Gaza.” Incidentally, this is when natopedia changed its article title about Xinjiang from “cultural genocide of the …” to “repression of the …” I’d imagine it’s hard to sustain a “muslim genocide” gimmick against the designated adversary when you’re simultaneously pumping out actual depraved genocide denial articles like “Is there a genocide in Gaza? Why legal experts are split” or “Abusing the word ‘genocide’ about Israel is dangerous and spectacularly ignorant”.
That doesn’t mean they won’t eventually reuse their propaganda. I was recently surprised to discover that the concept of the Xinjiang predecessor, the so-called “Holodomor” and “Ukrainian famine,” was set in motion in the 1930s but only truly gained momentum in the 80s when Reagan launched a focused propaganda campaign, which can be seen in this Google ngrams. After the fall of the USSR, the newly independent Ukrainian state was compelled to adopt it as a national myth, using it to shame and later persecute political groups that sought to maintain ties with Russia which inevitably contributed to the present conflict. They aren’t just targeting the current generation with this propaganda but also preserving a set of atrocity myth lore that can be dusted off and brought out if the timing becomes more opportune.
“Is there a genocide in Gaza? Why legal experts are split”
Article that aged well, lmao.
Yeah, so about that
It comes up every once in awhile when they need to rally up anti-china sentiment but it isn’t as prevalent as it used ti be. Always good to be aware tho.
looking for something well-sourced or he’d probably disregard it
90% chance that, to him, “well-sourced” means “reputable” western outlet/organization. You won’t find any “reputable” western outlet/organization doing this debunking. You can’t play their game and win, it’s their game (them = western propaganda apparatus). The illusion of diversity of opinion and accessibility to transparent information in the west is just that, an illusion.
The most glaring case of this has been Palestine. All western organizations, NGOs, media and governments have claimed for 80 years that what’s going on in Palestine is, at best, “a very long dispute between two cultures and religions and a very difficult topic that you shouldn’t try to understand”. It has taken the spread of smartphones and the smuggling of literal thousands of videos showing material evidence of the genocide outside Palestine, and its dissemination on non-US-controlled social media (TikTok at the beginning of the recent intensification of the genocide) and its spread to other social media afterwards for the majority of western people to wake up. And only after the waking up of a sizeable amount of people, have some western NGOs started to push for the recognition of the genocide.
You won’t find this “reputable” source because “reputable” is already a biased term in favour of western hegemony.
And at that point all you can do is undermine and destroy their trust in “reputable” western “news” organizations by hammering home their lies on the genocide in Gaza, their omissions, their distortions, and so on and that may not work because the western liberal will squirm and say ‘oh but that’s just this one instance, this isn’t a pattern’ and then you have to do the hard leg-work of digging out bad takes and bullshit from other instances and years (like the Bush years) and again some amount of bad faith liberals will squirm and say they’re not ready to throw them away entirely.
The person has to be willing to be Neo from the Matrix, they have to be willing to bravely question the foundations of their reality and truth. Sometimes you can easily drop some truth bombs and examples of distortion and completely rattle someone free of the chains, other times they’ll resist and resist like John Nada’s friend in “They Live” and you sadly lack actual truth sunglasses like exist in that movie to force onto their face.
The whole challenge of this issue is how often people expect you to prove a negative, which rigs the debate instantly. If you prove something isn’t there by looking there then it might just be somewhere else, this is why the burden of proof lies on the accuser. If he can understand why it’s his job to find the real proof and your job to weight the credibility of said proof then you can start having a productive conversation
Right here comrade.
There’s also several links pinned in the side bar which you may find helpful.
A person needs to stop thinking like a liberal. There’s no such a thing as a trustworthy source, only consistently truthful and verifiable source. It’s basic science, it requires collaboration. You need to accept that you can be proven wrong at any time, that nothing is absolute.
But we don’t do that, we make a news channel for Opinion A and news channel for opinion B and have them fight each other.
If the only thing that matters is changing an aspect of what they believe in, then yeah, find Gospels that agree with the worldview you’re trying to push. But be prepared that they might find even more of them that disagree with your world view.
Why is the west oh so concerned about the region? Who benifiets? What is the typical pattern of western concern in a nation?
Xinjang has a lot of oil under it and the people have links to NATOil infested Turkey. The same Turkey that helped NATOil install a terrorist as head of state, much to 
delight.It would really benefit the petroldollar / NATOil nations if they coud wedge off a major oil and gas resource and get a buffer bulkanization between China and Russia, 2 major economic competitors to the Petroldollar.
Oil extracted under RMB is profits not in Petroldollars, and devalues Petroldollars.
But NATOil focus grouped “We want to forcefully bulkanize China to suck it’s oil and profits for ourselves. Then have a friendly buffer state to grow more chaos between China and Russia.” And found that was a hard sell. So like they always do - try to make it a human appeal to manufacture a justification for military action.
they’d be pushing for terrorism in xinjiang even without the oil, in order to get bases there to further encircle china. same reason they tried to push for a “free tibet” (and would resume that push the instant it looked like it could work).
Here’s one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ff4YZBi4UTc
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
