TNG s5e2 “Darmok”
The thing that’s always bothered me about that metaphoric language is that to learn it you would need to be told the stories the metaphors refer to, which means there would have to be a more basic language for telling the actual stories. Then the metaphors would make sense. Same as understanding “gaslight” or “dog whistle” etc.
There was a great thread on Daystrom on Reddit about this. The theory is they have 3 languages. Basically, the bare function words taught to children and in which the stories are told. The main language of metaphors with which we are familiar. And a language of technical jargon. Until they have learnt the stories, language A can be used as a general purpose language for children, but it would be regarded as baby talk by adults except when used for its functional purpose in telling metaphors. The jargon would be necessary even at higher levels.
Holy crap! Except for the technical language this is the exact theory I came up with.
For amusement here’s my theory of why TNG Klingons don’t look like TOS Klingons: The Klingons first acquired warp drive from some unfortunate alien scientists who landed on their planet. The Klingons killed them and copied their technology, immediately conquering and subjugating every nearby system they could find. Like the ancient Romans, they expanded their empire beyond their ability to govern it. Logistics problems and power struggles on the home planet left many troops stranded on frontier planets, where they eventually settled down and went native. By the time the central government got its shit together and reasserted itself, generations of interbreeding had created Klingons who hardly looked Klingon anymore. Being on the fringes of the Empire, these were the Klingons Kirk’s generation interacted with, who are seen in TOS. After years of infighting over the status of the “halfbreeds”, the matter was finally settled. Certain distinguished warriors were allowed to undergo modification to look more “normal” - as we see Kang return in TNG. To a racially proud civilization this entire affair is a source of tremendous embarrassment - so as Worf said in the DS9 tribble episode, “We do not speak of it.”
I think this theory got trashed by canon at some point, but back in the 90s everybody I told it to thought it was a totally reasonable explanation.
Honestly the Klingon thing is the sort of thing I don’t feel needs a serious canon explanation. If I had been alive pre-TNG my preferred explanation would have been “they look different because they had different production budgets. In-lore they haven’t changed.”
It’s the same with Star Wars for me. I never cared for the fancy explanations for Han doing the Kessel Run in under 12 parsecs. Up until the Solo movie, my headcanon was just that Han was bullshitting. It fits his character, it doesn’t require some weird space-fantasy explanation. And best of all, it fits the suspicious reaction Obi-Wan gives after he says it.
I think it’s also why the visuals of the Klingon look in Discovery never bothered me. It always seemed like just another increase in budget and modern production design to the same fundamental design they’ve always had, the same way TNG improved upon TOS.
The 12 parsecs thing is emblematic of the entire original and prequel trilogies. George Lucas just made shit up as he went.
The problem with the 12 parsecs thing didn’t come from G-canon though. It was in extended universe, and later in the Solo movie, where the black holes explanation came in and removed the ability to interpret it as Han bullshitting.
I mean in the original trilogy when han said it. I assume George wrote it having no idea what the fuck a parsec is.
Oh yeah for sure. But this goes back to the other discussion I was having about Doylist vs Watsonian explanations. For this sort of issue, I strongly prefer to have a Watsonian explanation that we can use. And there is an official Watsonian explanation…it’s just a dumb and unsatisfying one compared to the one I prefered.
Well of course it was simply different production standards and budget, but it’s fun to come up with in-world rationalizations for these things.
Yeah no I get that, and normally I’m a big fan of finding Watsonian explanations for writing decisions rather than just accepting that something was done for production reasons or because of a studio note or some other Doylist reason. But for whatever reason when it comes specifically to visual changes I tend not to care as much.
A fun and well imagined notion for their “transformation.” Of course, as is the law of “Trek pedantry,” it was hypothesized in DS9 “Trials and Tribble-ations” by Dr. Bashir and confirmed in ENT to be the result of viral manipulation gone awry.
Per Memory Alpha:
The Klingon augment virus was a hybridized form of Levodian flu that threatened to wipe out the Klingon race in the mid-22nd century.
I had forgotten what they came up with but yeah it was the virus thing. I still think a history-based explanation would have been a lot more interesting.
Plausible and relatively lore-friendly. As much as the writers usually draw from history, this is one of those areas where they strayed a tad.
I bet they only talk that way in the presence of outsiders. On their own, they must have a basic structured language while also utilizing
metaphorsmemes where appropriate.
Could someone wiser than me translate?
Panel 1: Reference to the TV show Letterkenny (“Let’s get on with it”)
Panel 2: Reference to old TV ads for Tombstone Pizza (“What do you want on your Tombstone” i.e. “Any last requests?”)
Panel 3: Reference to Futurama episode: “Brannigan, Begin Again” (“Yes. Tell my wife how I feel about her.”)
Panel 4: Reference to the movie, The Princess Bride (“Yes of course, I’ll do that.”)
Panel 5: Reference to the movie, Blade Runner (“Time to die…”)
Panel 6: Meta reference, sticking with the referential nature of the dialog instead of actually rolling credits.Thanks for the reference breakdown.
Very welcome! With my brain, it’s about the only thing I’m good for 😬
Same wavelength, dude.
Who is that, ajdnwhy do they look like a mediaeval fantasy character sitting on a modern couch?
My response from another:
[Freja] from God of War, yes. In place of Liz Lemon in 30 Rock.
Edit: There’s a wonderful treasure trove of meme based gifs from the game studio itself.
Is that the same background though?
Holy shit these are incredible. Reminds me of the skit easter egg in the credits to Summoner.
Love both! Thanks!
You’re like some kind of sentient pop culture wiki.
Edit: Wasn’t meant for me, just felt compelled.
You absolutely are a pop culture wizard though!
☺️
mvp
Excellent. What exactly is six fingers?
Princess Bride character.
Hail, Satan ^in ^the ^details
Gotta put a closing caret on your superscript words in Lemmy. And end a line with two spaces if you want the text to appear on the next line.
in the details🤷🏽♂️
What app/UI you using? Some of the former Reddit apps that were converted to Lemmy haven’t implemented markdown according to the Lemmy specification, especially regarding superscript subscript
and
Spoilers
- Picard sees the grim situation for what it is and forges ahead
- He asks Dathon if he has any last words/message to get across
- Dathon wants to send a farewell to his wife
- Picard makes a promise to see the message through
- Dathon exclaims that he is dying
- Executive Producer Gene Roddenberry
One of the six fingered man’s promises was a lie
Sure, but the one to Humperdinck was intended.
Didn’t the message have something to do with Inigo Montoya, and something about his father?
I just realized the language spoken in Darmok is literally speaking in meme.
That’s the whole crux of the episode, though. 😅😶🌫️
And we already do this - every culture has a form, some more ingrained than others.
During WWII (and the Cold War), Allied analysts, spies and diplomats found learning Russian particularly difficult for just this reason.
Berman producing a genuinely good episode, fans left with mixed feelings.
We’ll just go ahead and give credit to the writers Philip LaZebnik and Joe Menosky in this case.
Of course, just alternate text for the final frame.
The Roy Batty line is brilliant
I’m not an expert on these old stories, but I’m pretty sure they’re referencing a movie from Earth’s past at the end there. I’ve had the computer reconstruct it.
The computer has regenerated another scene from this famous Earth 20th Century Story Film.
Am I supposed to wait for you to catch up, or…?
I was busy. And I made one for the Lal thread.
I Ain’t done! MORE HUMAN THAN HUWMAN! MORE HUMAN THAN HEWMAN! kick ass slide guitar power chords
Oh, and there’s also this quick clip:
I know this one’s mean, but…
Understandable, given the episode’s context. No worries.
Brilliant!
It’s been too long since last time, but this was great. Gonna call it from here.
John Wick, when his dog was killed.
This post and comment section has made me so happy 😊
Thank the community at large for their participatory wackiness.
Is that Freja?
From God of War, yes. In place of Liz Lemon in 30 Rock.
Edit: There’s a wonderful treasure trove of meme based gifs from the game studio itself.
Someone’s father is dead, I think?
deleted by creator
