DNA tests show that their ancestors mostly have the same markers found in southern Italian or Sicilian populations.
If a Japanese converts to Judaism, can they claim that their ancestors used to live in Israel? Well, the same logic applies to the European Jews that moved to Israel. They then convinced Jews that are actual descendants of the Levant populations to move to Israel with them, but the first settlers didn’t have Israeli ancestors, or didn’t have more of them than any other Joe Schmo from Southern Italy
Judaism is - mostly - not a religion of conversion, that’s why it’s always complicated to separate the religious aspect from the ethnic side when talking about ‘Jews’.
Even if the ancestry is muddled in millennia of mixing with other local populations, I suppose most Jews can still claim that they descend from Israeli ancestors at some point, and it makes sense.
Although I’ll be the first to admit that what happened to first Nations and indigenous populations during modern colonization is completely unfair and the reservations system is completely broken and it’s recent enough that it’s perfectly fair for them to fight it, but claiming you’re owed a piece of land because your ancestors (allegedly) got kicked out millennias ago? Nah.
Native Americans south of the us-mexico border stop being native Americans once they move out of the ejidos (aka communal community and the closest thing to a reservation in Mexico) and the ultra fine gradient that separates a Mexican from a native American is too fine for the American and Canadian systems to handle.
It’s especially galling in my situation because DNA says I’m 75% native American but I didn’t qualify under the American system (Canadians have a similar system) which means I can never access to the healthcare, education, and housing aid due to the simple fact that Americans genocides the people I descend from them out of existence on the American side the border; but left them mostly alone on the Mexican side of the border.
Compared to other religions, conversion to Judaism is quite complex and sometimes not allowed at all. The proselyte culture is a lot less developed than for other monotheistic religions.
Yeah, I’d be inclined to agree with your last point too. Especially when you consider the Holocaust, and how the Jews were forced to relocate or die. It’s like what do you want them to do in that situation.
It’s like what do you want them to do in that situation.
I want them not to steal the land and genocide the people who are completely unconnected to the holocaust. Zionism was a form of fascism before WW2. It’s always been the plan to rob palestine (apart from when they wanted argentina, etc.).
Are you aware of the history of the state of Israel beyond what affirms a bias?
The modern state of Israel was formed after Jews around the world started purchasing land in modern day Israel. 28% of Israel was purchased this way, and that’s most of the land the original waves moved to. Arab states surrounding that 28% had a huge issue with Jews existing in that space considering every one of those nations had genocide the Jews from their borders and even aligned with Hitler during WW2 (including the Palestinians, who allied with Hitler and whose leaders were eventually sent into exile by the British for doing so).
So, because the Arab states already had designs on the area of Palestine (they were going to annex once the British left), and they couldn’t tolerate Jews existing in the area… The Arab nations attacked. And lost, soundly. And Israel grew much, much larger. Israel seized more land by fighting off a war than anywhere else. That’s what happens when countries lose wars of aggression which they start; they lose territory. That’s what Ukraine is doing to Russia right now and they’d be foolish to ever give it back.
But sometimes they do give some or all land back. Which Israel did. They gave a lot of the land back in exchange for peace.
There’s no perfect entity in the world, and definitely not one in the Middle East. But please, spare us the Boogeyman one sided tales. The Jews fought for Israel so adamantly because they were exterminated from the region long before any fascist rose to power in Germany. They were forced out into diaspora several times, too. It’s all complicated and unfair and it isn’t as simple as Jews = European and don’t belong there.
Palestinians need to bite the bullet. There are generations of people born there now and Arab states are not going to exterminate them again. So a two state solution is what they better seek unless they want to lose it all with their constant aggression. Is it ideal? No. Would it secure an actual state and begin the process of normalization? Maybe. But first they need to purge terrorists from their leadership. And that’s the real stickler considering that shit runs deep in many Arab Nation governments. The two are intertwined just like emergency companies are in the west.
Fair enough. However, i don’t know about Zionism being fascism. It’s simply Israeli nationalism. Sure, there are a few far right Zionists, but they are in the minority.
I suppose most Jews can still claim that they descend from Israeli ancestors at some point, and it makes sense.
Just like christians, muslims, and probably the majority of people on the planet. But most convincingly the palestinians who continuously inhabited that land throughout history.
DNA tests show that their ancestors mostly have the same markers found in southern Italian or Sicilian populations.
If a Japanese converts to Judaism, can they claim that their ancestors used to live in Israel? Well, the same logic applies to the European Jews that moved to Israel. They then convinced Jews that are actual descendants of the Levant populations to move to Israel with them, but the first settlers didn’t have Israeli ancestors, or didn’t have more of them than any other Joe Schmo from Southern Italy
Judaism is - mostly - not a religion of conversion, that’s why it’s always complicated to separate the religious aspect from the ethnic side when talking about ‘Jews’.
Even if the ancestry is muddled in millennia of mixing with other local populations, I suppose most Jews can still claim that they descend from Israeli ancestors at some point, and it makes sense.
By this logic anyone can claim their right to seize African land
Or understand that remote ancestry doesn’t necessarily give you a right to some land
Ding ding ding! Right answer!
Although I’ll be the first to admit that what happened to first Nations and indigenous populations during modern colonization is completely unfair and the reservations system is completely broken and it’s recent enough that it’s perfectly fair for them to fight it, but claiming you’re owed a piece of land because your ancestors (allegedly) got kicked out millennias ago? Nah.
At least they have a reservation system.
Native Americans south of the us-mexico border stop being native Americans once they move out of the ejidos (aka communal community and the closest thing to a reservation in Mexico) and the ultra fine gradient that separates a Mexican from a native American is too fine for the American and Canadian systems to handle.
It’s especially galling in my situation because DNA says I’m 75% native American but I didn’t qualify under the American system (Canadians have a similar system) which means I can never access to the healthcare, education, and housing aid due to the simple fact that Americans genocides the people I descend from them out of existence on the American side the border; but left them mostly alone on the Mexican side of the border.
Actually Judaism is a religion of conversion since ancient times and to this day.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2021-09-30/ty-article/.highlight/cleansed-by-the-torah-why-these-afrikaners-became-jews-and-moved-to-israel/0000017f-e2bb-d9aa-afff-fbfb151f0000
Compared to other religions, conversion to Judaism is quite complex and sometimes not allowed at all. The proselyte culture is a lot less developed than for other monotheistic religions.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_to_Judaism
Yet the Edomites were forcefully converted to Judaism in the 2nd century BCE https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-edomites
It is a religion with converts even if they are pickier about who is converted, and being the oldest of the Abrahamic religions its converts go back millennia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_converts_to_Judaism
with modern converts even stirring debate over their right to “return”: https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/2013-02-19/ty-article/.premium/peruvian-converts-denied-aliyah/0000017f-f79e-d887-a7ff-fffea6480000
Yeah, I’d be inclined to agree with your last point too. Especially when you consider the Holocaust, and how the Jews were forced to relocate or die. It’s like what do you want them to do in that situation.
I want them not to steal the land and genocide the people who are completely unconnected to the holocaust. Zionism was a form of fascism before WW2. It’s always been the plan to rob palestine (apart from when they wanted argentina, etc.).
Are you aware of the history of the state of Israel beyond what affirms a bias? The modern state of Israel was formed after Jews around the world started purchasing land in modern day Israel. 28% of Israel was purchased this way, and that’s most of the land the original waves moved to. Arab states surrounding that 28% had a huge issue with Jews existing in that space considering every one of those nations had genocide the Jews from their borders and even aligned with Hitler during WW2 (including the Palestinians, who allied with Hitler and whose leaders were eventually sent into exile by the British for doing so).
So, because the Arab states already had designs on the area of Palestine (they were going to annex once the British left), and they couldn’t tolerate Jews existing in the area… The Arab nations attacked. And lost, soundly. And Israel grew much, much larger. Israel seized more land by fighting off a war than anywhere else. That’s what happens when countries lose wars of aggression which they start; they lose territory. That’s what Ukraine is doing to Russia right now and they’d be foolish to ever give it back.
But sometimes they do give some or all land back. Which Israel did. They gave a lot of the land back in exchange for peace.
There’s no perfect entity in the world, and definitely not one in the Middle East. But please, spare us the Boogeyman one sided tales. The Jews fought for Israel so adamantly because they were exterminated from the region long before any fascist rose to power in Germany. They were forced out into diaspora several times, too. It’s all complicated and unfair and it isn’t as simple as Jews = European and don’t belong there.
Palestinians need to bite the bullet. There are generations of people born there now and Arab states are not going to exterminate them again. So a two state solution is what they better seek unless they want to lose it all with their constant aggression. Is it ideal? No. Would it secure an actual state and begin the process of normalization? Maybe. But first they need to purge terrorists from their leadership. And that’s the real stickler considering that shit runs deep in many Arab Nation governments. The two are intertwined just like emergency companies are in the west.
Fair enough. However, i don’t know about Zionism being fascism. It’s simply Israeli nationalism. Sure, there are a few far right Zionists, but they are in the minority.
Just like christians, muslims, and probably the majority of people on the planet. But most convincingly the palestinians who continuously inhabited that land throughout history.
Can you provide some sources I can use for explaining that to others?
https://www.science.org/content/article/meeting-ancestors-history-ashkenazi-jews-revealed-medieval-dna
Check out some history. It’s sort of obvious at its face when these white people claim to be from the middle east.