On April 15th, people from over 30 cities around the world will launch a global economic blockade answering the call from Gaza to fight for a liberated Palestine. 75 years and 182 days into this U...
Where did I paint Israel as the victim? They are obviously responsible for mass destruction and reckless killing of thousands of people. What I say is that you don’t get the complexity of the conflict, that you just focus on one side of it and that calling for the destruction for the Israeli state is very problematic. There seem to be so many people that try to ignore either side of the conflict. “Oh, the Palestinians are all Hamas and we are just defending us” vs “Oh, the Israelis are all genocidal colonialists and we have to destroy them”. Neither of both is true and we would benefit from trying to move away from a Palestine vs Israel narrative and try to rather organize against the Israeli government as well as Hamas.
“Antisemitic genocide enablers”? What genocide are we talking about now? I think you might be so locked in in this us vs them mentality that you don’t hear what I say but try to forcibly put it in the “them” category.
Well, you cannot deny that there are many antisemites that would want to kill all the Jews. Especially within Hamas. And if people use the same rhetoric (“from the river to the sea”), why wouldn’t I warn against this antisemitic rhetoric? I don’t see how I am “parroting” Israeli propaganda though.
Well, it is really obvious what you don’t get. I’m an anarchist, why wouldn’t I be in this community. Are you trying to push a normative standard on me and say that only people with the same opinion as you can be in this space? Just because I criticize some specific actions that imo are counterproductive doesn’t mean I’m not an anarchist. That’s just political discourse.
your discourse is patronizing and disrespectful to me and my ability to understand what’s going on. you are hijacking a discussion about how to stop a colonialist genocide to wring your hands about oppressed people possibly winning and treating their occupiers like they’ve been treated.
I don’t believe you’re an anarchist because you are derailing a solidarity action and accusing anarchists of being antisemitic.
If you want to talk politics, you’re gonna have to accept the fact that people will have different opions. This isn’t hexbear where everyone with a different view is instabanned. I get that emotions are running high over the situation in Gaza, but try to respond in good faith instead of leaping to the most uncharitable interpretation possible.
You are incorrect about hexbear. I am an anarchist and post there almost exclusively, I have seen more vigorous debate there than any other left space. Hexbear actually allows proper arguments and doesn’t even have downvotes.
That’s unfortunate to hear, I don’t know the context of your experience so I can’t make any assumption, but it is just funny to me how much I see comments like that about hexbear, when I have found it to be very welcoming to diverse views (aside from pro-liberalism or fascism), and plenty of other anarchists on there agree. I wouldn’t have been drawn towards it if it weren’t for so many people saying they were ‘MAGA tankies’ etc.
if these same opinions were being voiced in c/politics or c/news, my pushback would be decidedly different. this is an anarchist community, and frankly i don’t believe the other user’s operating in good faith. just saying “i’m an anarchist” is a pretty thin shield for accusing principled organizers of antisemitism and derailing discussion about a global coordinated resistance movement.
i think it’s super cool that an admin is weighing in (since i think that means my reports are being read), but maybe we could get an anarchist to actually do some of the moderation here.
We read every report, but only take mod actions where it is warranted. Reading through what @flora_explorer@beehaw.org has posted here, I don’t see anything that would violate any instance rules. You are welcome to block them if you don’t want to engage with their arguments.
my concern isn’t instance-wide rules. as i said, in another community, my tact would have been totally different. my concern is whether this is actually an anarchist community or no.
What does being an anarchist community mean to you? To my mind, if someone self identifies as an anarchist then they should be welcome here. If they are just here for trolling then that’s another issue, but I don’t think it applies in this case.
Hm, OK I get that you are upset. And I really don’t want to derail anything here. My point is rather that we should try to be critical of ourselves as well. It is obviously easier to organize if there is one clear enemy, like Putin or Erdogan. The Ukrainian or Kurdish struggles have gained a lot of solidarity because these conflicts are easier to divide into good vs bad. In the Israel/Palestine conflict however I think we need to be careful. I see how deeply problematic the Israeli government is behaving and we need to organize and stand firm against it. But it is also true that antisemitism has a very long and complex history where the Israeli state plays an important role. This does obviously not excuse any violence or abuse by the Israeli state. And I don’t get why the US or the European nations fail to put sanctions on Israel. But at the same time, the Jewish people do need a safe place to exist and antisemitism is not a hoax made up by the Israeli government. While Jewish people from abroad may even speak against the existence of the Israeli state, antisemitic attacks in e.g. the US and Europe have increased. Only this week someone through a Molotov cocktail on a synagogue where I live (in Germany). Many synagogues here need police protection. The generation of my greatgrand- and grandparents have systematically killed Jews. Many states around Israel would have destroyed Israel long ago if they’d had the means to it. Again, I know this does not excuse any violence by the Jewish state. They should be held responsible for the horrible atrocities they are currently performing. But imo it just is not as easy to say that the whole state of Israel with all the people living in it is the enemy here. Netanyahu and his extremist Likud party for sure. But not Israel itself. I hope you can understand where I’m coming from and what my intentions are.
ETA: and yes, I really identify as an anarchist. To me this means that we should strive to live without hierarchies and without rulers. In my utopia there would be no nations, no borders, no capitalism, no money, no jobs etc. We would need to find ways to organize in better ways that benefit everyone and lets everyone participate to their own needs. But unfortunately it will be a really long struggle to get to this.
Lol, see what I mean by black and white thinking? Either I’m against it or for it. Nothing else imaginable. “Genocidal colonialism” is a very loaded term and I’m not sure it even applies here. And because I dare to think about why it might be something else I’m directly in favor of colonialism and genocide? Wild.
the project of setting up Israel as a nation state is a genocidal colonialist project. dissembling about this, suggesting it was acceptable, that the occupied people should only resist within the boundaries you set, shows you aren’t opposed to the genocidal colonialist project.
I agree that the circumstances of the creation of the Israeli state was highly problematic. But the link to the present is not that clear cut. What do you plan to do with all the “colonialists” then? Where should they go? What kind of reasonable and feasible solution would you think of if all of the Israeli state is already defined as a genocidal colonialist project? Kill all the Jews? Or exile them? Wouldn’t that be genocide, too? Or you want to dissolve the Israeli state and let everyone live peacefully together? But is this really an option with all the conflicts and how many Palestinians have been displaced?
This is not really any answer to what I’ve asked. I’m all for bringing down that wall. But without any plan this will lead to a bloodbath on all sides. So please, what is your plan with Israel and its population if this “genocidal colonialist project” is going to be stopped.
Where did I paint Israel as the victim? They are obviously responsible for mass destruction and reckless killing of thousands of people. What I say is that you don’t get the complexity of the conflict, that you just focus on one side of it and that calling for the destruction for the Israeli state is very problematic. There seem to be so many people that try to ignore either side of the conflict. “Oh, the Palestinians are all Hamas and we are just defending us” vs “Oh, the Israelis are all genocidal colonialists and we have to destroy them”. Neither of both is true and we would benefit from trying to move away from a Palestine vs Israel narrative and try to rather organize against the Israeli government as well as Hamas.
when you parroted the propaganda that these anarchists are anitsemitic genocide enablers
“Antisemitic genocide enablers”? What genocide are we talking about now? I think you might be so locked in in this us vs them mentality that you don’t hear what I say but try to forcibly put it in the “them” category.
you accused them of wanting to kill all the Jews. you’re backpedaling now.
Well, you cannot deny that there are many antisemites that would want to kill all the Jews. Especially within Hamas. And if people use the same rhetoric (“from the river to the sea”), why wouldn’t I warn against this antisemitic rhetoric? I don’t see how I am “parroting” Israeli propaganda though.
claiming boycott is antisemitic and clamiing “from the river to the sea” is antisemitic are both israeli propaganda, and you’re parroting it.
it’s not antisemitic
what does this have to do with the leftists organizing an economic blockade? nothing.
you don’t know what I “get”
how did you find this community?!
Well, it is really obvious what you don’t get. I’m an anarchist, why wouldn’t I be in this community. Are you trying to push a normative standard on me and say that only people with the same opinion as you can be in this space? Just because I criticize some specific actions that imo are counterproductive doesn’t mean I’m not an anarchist. That’s just political discourse.
your discourse is patronizing and disrespectful to me and my ability to understand what’s going on. you are hijacking a discussion about how to stop a colonialist genocide to wring your hands about oppressed people possibly winning and treating their occupiers like they’ve been treated.
I don’t believe you’re an anarchist because you are derailing a solidarity action and accusing anarchists of being antisemitic.
If you want to talk politics, you’re gonna have to accept the fact that people will have different opions. This isn’t hexbear where everyone with a different view is instabanned. I get that emotions are running high over the situation in Gaza, but try to respond in good faith instead of leaping to the most uncharitable interpretation possible.
You are incorrect about hexbear. I am an anarchist and post there almost exclusively, I have seen more vigorous debate there than any other left space. Hexbear actually allows proper arguments and doesn’t even have downvotes.
That has not been my experience, but I’m glad it works for you.
That’s unfortunate to hear, I don’t know the context of your experience so I can’t make any assumption, but it is just funny to me how much I see comments like that about hexbear, when I have found it to be very welcoming to diverse views (aside from pro-liberalism or fascism), and plenty of other anarchists on there agree. I wouldn’t have been drawn towards it if it weren’t for so many people saying they were ‘MAGA tankies’ etc.
if these same opinions were being voiced in c/politics or c/news, my pushback would be decidedly different. this is an anarchist community, and frankly i don’t believe the other user’s operating in good faith. just saying “i’m an anarchist” is a pretty thin shield for accusing principled organizers of antisemitism and derailing discussion about a global coordinated resistance movement.
i think it’s super cool that an admin is weighing in (since i think that means my reports are being read), but maybe we could get an anarchist to actually do some of the moderation here.
We read every report, but only take mod actions where it is warranted. Reading through what @flora_explorer@beehaw.org has posted here, I don’t see anything that would violate any instance rules. You are welcome to block them if you don’t want to engage with their arguments.
my concern isn’t instance-wide rules. as i said, in another community, my tact would have been totally different. my concern is whether this is actually an anarchist community or no.
What does being an anarchist community mean to you? To my mind, if someone self identifies as an anarchist then they should be welcome here. If they are just here for trolling then that’s another issue, but I don’t think it applies in this case.
Hm, OK I get that you are upset. And I really don’t want to derail anything here. My point is rather that we should try to be critical of ourselves as well. It is obviously easier to organize if there is one clear enemy, like Putin or Erdogan. The Ukrainian or Kurdish struggles have gained a lot of solidarity because these conflicts are easier to divide into good vs bad. In the Israel/Palestine conflict however I think we need to be careful. I see how deeply problematic the Israeli government is behaving and we need to organize and stand firm against it. But it is also true that antisemitism has a very long and complex history where the Israeli state plays an important role. This does obviously not excuse any violence or abuse by the Israeli state. And I don’t get why the US or the European nations fail to put sanctions on Israel. But at the same time, the Jewish people do need a safe place to exist and antisemitism is not a hoax made up by the Israeli government. While Jewish people from abroad may even speak against the existence of the Israeli state, antisemitic attacks in e.g. the US and Europe have increased. Only this week someone through a Molotov cocktail on a synagogue where I live (in Germany). Many synagogues here need police protection. The generation of my greatgrand- and grandparents have systematically killed Jews. Many states around Israel would have destroyed Israel long ago if they’d had the means to it. Again, I know this does not excuse any violence by the Jewish state. They should be held responsible for the horrible atrocities they are currently performing. But imo it just is not as easy to say that the whole state of Israel with all the people living in it is the enemy here. Netanyahu and his extremist Likud party for sure. But not Israel itself. I hope you can understand where I’m coming from and what my intentions are.
ETA: and yes, I really identify as an anarchist. To me this means that we should strive to live without hierarchies and without rulers. In my utopia there would be no nations, no borders, no capitalism, no money, no jobs etc. We would need to find ways to organize in better ways that benefit everyone and lets everyone participate to their own needs. But unfortunately it will be a really long struggle to get to this.
the whole state of israel and its supporters are the enemy.
nazis in ukraine aren’t my comrades either.
couching this as though it’s untrue betrays that you aren’t opposed to genocidal colonialism
Lol, see what I mean by black and white thinking? Either I’m against it or for it. Nothing else imaginable. “Genocidal colonialism” is a very loaded term and I’m not sure it even applies here. And because I dare to think about why it might be something else I’m directly in favor of colonialism and genocide? Wild.
the project of setting up Israel as a nation state is a genocidal colonialist project. dissembling about this, suggesting it was acceptable, that the occupied people should only resist within the boundaries you set, shows you aren’t opposed to the genocidal colonialist project.
I agree that the circumstances of the creation of the Israeli state was highly problematic. But the link to the present is not that clear cut. What do you plan to do with all the “colonialists” then? Where should they go? What kind of reasonable and feasible solution would you think of if all of the Israeli state is already defined as a genocidal colonialist project? Kill all the Jews? Or exile them? Wouldn’t that be genocide, too? Or you want to dissolve the Israeli state and let everyone live peacefully together? But is this really an option with all the conflicts and how many Palestinians have been displaced?
you keep bringing this up, but you’re the only one
it’s an event in living memory that has never been rectified
seems to me the first thing to do is to tear down the wall. then we can let the palestinian people reclaim their homes.
This is not really any answer to what I’ve asked. I’m all for bringing down that wall. But without any plan this will lead to a bloodbath on all sides. So please, what is your plan with Israel and its population if this “genocidal colonialist project” is going to be stopped.
I don’t need a plan to know what needs to be done
OK OK, I see this discussion will lead nowhere. Bye