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You ask these people what they’re doing to fight Zionism and they’ll just insist that they’re posting and fighting in the information war, meanwhile this is what they post.
It’s just incredible how western leftists will expect real revolutionaries and real leaders of real communist societies to imperil their many hundreds of millions of citizens and their thriving socialist projects to clean up messes borne of our own sins. Yes, Palestinian genocide is evil and it must be stopped, but how is that China’s burden to bear? As if we haven’t foisted enough burdens directly onto them already…
I don’t think he has ever said that and I know that he has said the opposite. All countries party to the genocide convention have a legal obligation to prevent AND PUNISH genocide.
China is not enacting its legal obligations.
A lot of “punishing” of the west would need to be done in order for that to mean something and the anti-imperialist forces do not appear to be both militarily strong enough and unified enough politically, in order to do such a thing - at least, not without triggering some kind of hot war WW3 scenario that forces countries to pick sides.
Ok, then you’re saying China doesn’t care about and isn’t bound by international law because the bad guys aren’t doing it. Hardly a robust position, comrade. Look at Yemen. They’re upholding international law. One of the only ones to do anything about it. Is little Yemen more powerful than China, or are they just more bullish on humanity? “Critical support” means support with criticism. This thread lacks that criticism, imo.
“International Law” is about as real as Scotland’s national animal.
IL is an excuse for Western empires to topple any regime they want. Pretending it’s anything more than that is as delusional as believing we can beat fascism by voting.
That would be a fine argument if you also conceded that China doesn’t agree, at least publicly.
What exactly are they supposed to say?
“International law is fake - we do what we want.”
Yeah, that looks like good PR for sure. 🙄
Look at Yemen. They’re upholding international law. One of the only ones to do anything about it. Is little Yemen more powerful than China, or are they just more bullish on humanity?
Yemen being weaker/irrelevant is likely exactly why the US is not afraid of their actions. China being stronger, but not overwhelmingly so, and more connected to the west might just be the reason why the US is more afraid of what China is doing and will react more harshly because of it.
“Critical support” means support with criticism. This thread lacks that criticism, imo.
Who said that we are only offering critical support to China? Also, critical support is more so used for the likes of Russia which are acting anti-imperialist, but still built on capitalist exploitation and generally not having an ML philosophy attached to their politics. At least that’s how I understood it.
I’m not saying China needs to go in guns blazing like Yemen, but they could unquestionably move the needle. If they did, you’d support it, right? If so, how could you defend them doing basically NOTHING about it? NOTHING about Gaza. NOTHING about Cuba. Propose something at the UN and say they support international law while not even asking for the GA to act outside the UNSC.
The alternative to critical support is uncritical support, and I’d hope no Marxist gives uncritical support to literally anything.
If you’d bothered to read the rest of the thread you would understand thats just your liberal bias coming out and that a proper investigation reveals that China is in fact, not doing nothing for any of those you just listed.
but they could unquestionably move the needle.
Source? Jk, but you can’t just make that assumption. What does “move the needle” even mean? And what is the cost of moving it?
I assure you that our comrades over there have already thought about those things.
If they did, you’d support it, right? If so, how could you defend them doing basically NOTHING about it?
Sure, but only because them “doing something about it” would also mean that they have the material conditions to do so, which is the only reason they would make that decision.
That also means that them not doing something about it is based on their material analysis and I trust them when they say that they can’t do much more than they already are. Who am I to disagree? I simply don’t have the hubris to assume that I know better than the most successful socialist experiment of humanity.
They know more about their geopolitical standing than I do. I am just gonna refer to the experts and the experts in this case is the CPC
The alternative to critical support is uncritical support, and I’d hope no Marxist gives uncritical support to literally anything.
That would mean that everything we support, we support critically, which then removes the meaning of critical support imo.
I believe it is more so that it is critical for us to support something even if it hurts us. At least, again, that’s how I understood it.
Here is a list of stuff China has done to help other countries, even if not in the sense of “exporting revolution” or “military intervention”. It was posted in this thread: https://lemmygrad.ml/post/10742177/7766919
I am copy/pasting the parts that relate to Cuba and Palestine for emphasis.
Cuba – Massive solar rollout; grid support; equipment and financing replacing lost Russian capacity under U.S. blockade, food aid.
Palestine – Diplomatic support for statehood; humanitarian aid; rejection of Israeli/U.S. framing, support of PLO.
Keep in mind this is one person’s list too. There is probably more in the details with the right research.
What Yemen has contributed is commendable, especially for their size, there’s no doubt about it. However, in the broader scope of your point about international law, that’s not really what they’re doing. What they’re doing is what they’re able to do in defense of their own regional interests and their allies in the region, which is the same kind of thing China did with Korea in the past. What recognition there is of the attacks against Palestine being a genocide helps legitimize the position Yemen takes, but they would still have reason to take it, even if what was happening to Palestine was not considered a genocide in its damage and scope.
Is Yemen over in the Congo? Are they out in the seas right now attacking US war ships to prevent oil from being stolen from Venezuela? Maybe if they had the capability to do so, they would be, I don’t know, but I’m pretty sure they aren’t. And it would be strange to expect them to be off in an area they don’t have strategic control over trying to fight a war of attrition.
What I’m trying to get at here is, there just isn’t any such thing as international law being consistently enforced by an anti-imperialist coalition. If such existed, we wouldn’t be having this conversation because such a coalition would have intervened in Palestine long ago and in numerous other parts of the world. “International law” is idea more than it is actual practice because it exists under the model of western imperial hegemony, which has terrorized the world for decades in post-WWII. To expect China to suddenly be enforcing international law when there is no precedent of it being consistently enforced in the first place, is a confusing and unfair standard to hold it to.
I’m trying to pull back the liberal decorum layer that says how nations are supposed to act and point at the mechanics of what some might call “realpolitik”, where nations and peoples are acting more out of raw pragmatism than out of strict moral code.
Prove me wrong if you have the evidence. Show me how international law has been consistently enforced in an anti-imperialist, ethical manner and show me how China in particular excuses itself from participating in that. I don’t think you can find any such evidence, but it seems pretty necessary for the legitimacy of the stance you are taking.
china (and every other country) should spend the percentage of their gdp on helping Palestine, that hexbear does of our incomes on direct aid to Palestinians.
You can say every country should do x, but that’s only weakening the relative position of any country that chooses to comply. There’s no way to make the West follow suit. They obviously won’t.
You’re falling into the same error of thought that anarchists commit when they say “all states are bad, so China AND America should be balkanized/destroyed/resisted.” You are not rising above the fray. You’re not even declaring neutrality. You’re jumping in on the side of our class enemies by demanding our allies diminish their power for nothing in return.
no i’m not. destroying the outpost would be an incredible blow to hegemony, and i’m not even asking for all that much.
I don’t really know what you’re after. You can either try to earnestly understand why the CPC doesn’t do what you expect or throw up your hands and become an anticommunist. I hope it’s the prior.
Racist fuckers pretty much asking the Chinese to risk death and nuclear WWIII while they are too incompetent to do fuck all in their own countries (^most lenient scenario. actual scenario - they partake in the benefits of imperialism).
It is left-liberals (whatever the fuck they want to call themselves or even decide to drape themselves in sickle and hammer aesthetics or that annoying fucking A) who effectively prevent the underclasses from overthrowing the government of whatever Western country or vassal state they are in (you take your pick of reasons why including socdem apologism), and thereby nullify the option that if the Chinese do decide to risk a hot war that there would be any real chance of material solidarity and not have to then face retribution of whatever fascists and liberals leftover hellbent on revenge.
It is pretty much these “leftists” who prevent any real hope of Chinese intervention.
Put it this way, if so-called communists cannot see the self-evident truths above then what chance is there with rest of them. The only fucking country that has managed to build a socialist fortress and the rest of you all have the gall to fucking lecture.
/rant over
Racist fuckers pretty much asking the Chinese to risk death and nuclear WWIII while they are too incompetent to do fuck all in their own countries (^most lenient scenario. actual scenario - they partake in the benefits of imperialism).
So kind of like this
Read some history books nerds, Palestine wouldn’t even likely still be an alive entity without the historic support China provided. Like the PLO with arms, mediation support and money.
This position has allowed them to exert massive diplomatic force in the present day - look at the 2024 Beijing Declaration.
All people ask is to not trade with a genocidal entity. The fact China can’t even manage that is pathetic.
- no it is not
- treating international trade like consumer choice opt out is the bone-headed take that is unbecoming of anyone who considers anti-imperialism as a science. That’s the most polite I can be (like BDS barely works - like it hits bottom lines of companies as best case scenario and does fuck all for ethnic cleansing and genocide. The reason we have to even consider as a litmus test for western politicians is because westerners are so fucking retrograde and backwards)
- pathetic does not even begin to describe the racism here against the Chinese (and let’s be honest, against the Palestinians too by offsetting any guilt and playing perfomative politics. “Raising awareness” politics is apparently radical)
Do you at least harbor some amount of disappointment for how little China has distanced themselves from “Israel”?
I’m not going to sit here and say China should start deploying troops to Tel Aviv, but isn’t it fair to be a little disappointed with how little they’ve browbeaten “Israel”?
On the other hand, I would have absolutely no rebuttal if you say something like “its not our place (as members of the Imperial core), to be disappointed in a nation that doesn’t want to clean up a mess that we created”. I could potentially see the orientalism in this perspective.
Or, maybe you reject the entire premise and DO think that China has been effectively browbeating “Israel”?
Honest questions.
Do you at least harbor some amount of disappointment for how little China has distanced themselves from “Israel”?
Any disappointment I may have had is because of leftover liberalism ie my own ignorance and ineptitude. My own anger comes from how little has been done by the peoples collectively as westerners/vassal states.
The likes of Soviet Union and Cuba has done things that should jam more with western mores of what “socialism” is outside of their borders and they fucking suffered for it AND don’t get the credit they deserved.
Their peoples died en masse for the world so the rest of us can write fucking memes.
Whereas the one country that learned what that overleverage costs is the only reason we are talking here today about a realistic end of Western Hegemony. Marxism-leninism is a science and we are so backwards that we do not have the courtesy of humanity to learn it.
Or, maybe you reject the entire premise and DO think that China has been effectively browbeating “Israel”?
I suspect they are but I want to currently submit to the concrete evidence we do have rather than the speculation of what may be likely (ie high impact but low visbility eg dual use metal export ban).
The simple answer is the US is orders of magnitude worse than Israel and if one understands despite that China had to trade with the US and is avoiding hot war with it then it is telling when folks not get why the same should extend elsewhere of said hegemony. If one wants to downplay the only country to drop nuclear bombs on civilians twice then that is on them to take that risk not China’s.
Any disappointment I may have had is because of leftover liberalism ie my own ignorance and ineptitude. My own anger comes from how little has been done by the peoples collectively as westerners/vassal states.
The likes of Soviet Union and Cuba has done things that should jam more with western mores of what “socialism” is outside of their borders and they fucking suffered for it AND don’t get the credit they deserved.
Their peoples died en masse for the world so the rest of us can write fucking memes.
Beautifully written.
🫡
China have a consistent policy. They recognize the state of Palestine and vote for its membership in the UN.
China want to mediate a peaceful resolution. To achieve that, they will not distance themselves from or sanction Israel. They can’t be an effective mediator otherwise.
They only use trade sanctions in RETALIATION to attacks on China from other countries.
Sanctions aren’t going to beat Israel. It’s supported by the US with billions of dollars per year.
Pulling the race card for China max trading with genociders will never get old
Perfomative politics is all you got. Materially you’re no different that those more vocal in supporting the genocide; they are just more honest.
I mean you could learn why the Chinese have the foreign policy they do, having learned from the Soviet Union but you choose not to. Your crocodile tears mean nothing when there’s zilch about trade cessation with every other western country (like why not the US? Or Europe? They’re all orders of magnitude worse than Israel. Every war crime in palestine is theirs and then some) because you decided to hold “standards” for a country of a global south that you haven’t elsewhere. And the ongoing mass murders with other countries by the West for the past > 1 century. And this is if I pretend to take your argument at face value that all you mean is just trading.
So yeah what you said is fucking racist.
For anyone still lurking, and to add to what I have already said:
- “Race card”; scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds
- If they decide trade cessation you will do fuck all if any Chinese die as a result
- If they decide not to do trade cessation, with the ongoing escalations to further hot wars the likes of you will go “oh well, they didn’t do much for palestine anyway” as a narrative for a social license to back imperialism
So the only reason you are comfortable with risking Chinese blood either way is because you’re on the samewave length as the genocidaires you nominally admonish. The likes of you are the reason why Chinese intervention is so damn risky, you make up part of the imperial cores defence, because you will offer no real stake in solidarity with Chinese and you have no real plan to threaten your own government and state.
We are, however, dialectical materialists. Matter is always in motion and we do not believe necessarily a person’s abhorrent views are set in stone; we welcome you to change them - to begin with educate yourself. A lot of us here were once liberals too.
LOL ya it’s fascist to say China doing nothing is actually bad. People like you’d be stanning for China even when they supported the khmer rouge too bud. Keep writing essays about how China is the savior of the world while the world burns.
- China doing nothing is actually bad
- Claiming ww3 will start from not trading with israel is stupid
- China stans will write essays about how you’re racist and a fascist for expecting better from the 2nd most powerful nation in the world.
People like you’d be stanning for China even when they supported the khmer rouge too bud.
You talk like you have just learned what socialism is from the back of a milk carton. One of the top things MLs criticise China is the war against Vietnam and its dealing with Khmer Rouge.
But you don’t know that because you don’t realise what this is. The chances of you being convinced here is very close to zero; this is for anyone lurking here so they may have a chance to educate themselves and not become a piece of shit compatible-left of the US empire.
You are functionally not against the genocide, you are what makes the genocide possible.
Hope that helps, buddy.
No I do know that, which is why I brought it up the fuck. You brought up I was racist when I criticize China. I brought up another valid criticism of China and you go off some bullshit.
Keep deflecting how China NEEDS to trade with a genocidal entity to prevent future entities and criticizing that makes you racist. Joke of the century.
So don’t trade with the US? With the EU? With any of the western empire’s proxies? That’s a lot to be cutting out.
Lets just start not with Israel, is it that hard to do or is trademaxxing and fuck everyone else really gonna be the only way.
trademaxxing and fuck everyone else
One of China’s main things is doing trade that has mutual benefit. Trade is not inherently predatory, so I don’t know where you get the “fuck everyone else” part. I’m kind of just lost as to what standards you think you’re holding China to here (standards which you don’t seem interested in applying to any other country on the planet).
I don’t care if China wants to improve the condition of their people and their country. That’s fine, just find it annoying when people bring them up as a bastion of the Global South. Why should I not hold them to a greater standard? Solidarity can come in different ways and China can’t even be bothered to do even that.
It’s sounding like we need a compiled resource on all the ways China does act in solidarity with countries that are targeted by imperialism. I cannot recall all that stuff from memory and rattle it off, but I know from things I’ve read in recent years, I have no doubt that China does generally act in solidarity. So it is weird to read “they can’t even bothered” like they aren’t doing anything internationally at all.
The DPRK – Secured the existence of the DPRK, Mutual defense treaty; trade lifeline; diplomatic shielding; border stability. China’s position prevents DPRK regime-collapse scenarios.
Cuba – Massive solar rollout; grid support; equipment and financing replacing lost Russian capacity under U.S. blockade, food aid.
Iran – Primary buyer of sanctioned oil; infrastructure investment; 25-year cooperation framework; diplomatic resistance to U.S. isolation. Military aid and intelligence assistance.
Venezuela – Oil-backed financing; infrastructure; sustained trade under sanctions; prevented total economic implosion.
Russia – Energy rerouting; industrial supply chains; strategic coordination after Western economic warfare.
Laos – China–Laos high-speed rail; power grids; landlocked transit economy.
Cambodia – Roads, ports, hydropower.
Myanmar – Pipelines, ports, rail; Indian Ocean access.
Indonesia – Jakarta–Bandung HSR; nickel processing; ports.
Malaysia – Rail corridors; ports; industrial parks.
Thailand – Rail links; logistics hubs.
Vietnam – Manufacturing integration; rail upgrades; energy projects.
Pakistan – CPEC: Gwadar port; highways; power plants; fiber optics.
Sri Lanka – Ports; expressways; power generation.
Bangladesh – Bridges; coal + solar plants; telecom.
Nepal – Roads; hydropower; cross-border trade links.
Kazakhstan – Rail hubs; pipelines; dry ports.
Uzbekistan – Industrial parks; rail.
Kyrgyzstan – Roads; power.
Tajikistan – Energy + transport.
Iraq – Power stations; reconstruction.
Ethiopia – Addis–Djibouti railway; industrial parks.
Kenya – Standard Gauge Railway; port upgrades.
Nigeria – Rail; power plants.
Angola – Oil-for-infrastructure.
Egypt – New administrative capital; industrial zones; power.
Zambia – Roads; hydropower.
Tanzania – Ports; rail.
Uganda – Power dams; roads.
Zimbabwe – Energy; airport modernization.
And honestly too many more to list in a single comment since basically all of Africa makes use of the BRI and other Chinese development pathways.
Brazil – Ports; agribusiness logistics; industrial investment.
Peru – Megaports; mining corridors.
Bolivia – Lithium; roads; telecom.
Ecuador – Hydropower; transport.
Palestine – Diplomatic support for statehood; humanitarian aid; rejection of Israeli/U.S. framing, support of PLO.
is it that hard to do
Yes. Taking unilaterally aggressive action against “Israel” would be about as close to declaring war on the US led empire as you can get without a formal declaration. You can’t separate the imperialists forward base from it’s whole. They are not separate entities.
I mean, yeah, they do kinda do that.
They do but BE is doing that annoying idealist shit Lenin, Parenti, et al have roasted where nothing China does is ever good enough for Leftists because they’re not a super wholesome big chungus perfect real communist society in our time that has no flaws and is a utopia for everyone.
He could be calling out the countries actually backing the genocide but he’s choosing to attack China instead. Like, really? Priorities.
nothing China does is ever good enough for Leftists because they’re not a super wholesome big chungus perfect real communist society in our time that has no flaws and is a utopia for everyone.
China has been forced into a strategic and largely non-interventionist posture on shit like this because they know openly bombing Pissr*al would be the easiest way to foment a coalition of xenophobic backlash, and at precisely a time when the West is crumbling on itself and China makes enormous strategic gains, day by day, by doing nothing.
Having said that, I’m still critical of China’s position on Gaza. It’s a bleak fucking time for most of the world right now.
Not really. They are not exactly relaxing when it comes to western imperialism and opposing it.
There just is not exactly much to do against it if they don’t want to jeopardise their own people, their goal of a multipolar world and the idea of socialism in the world.
We are talking about nuclear powers and china is not that well liked yet in the west. They also don’t want to make it seem like they are behind the Palestinian struggle and therefore give an excuse for the genocide because the evil and powerful CCP is behind it and not normal people that wanted to live in peace and are violently resisting due to being attacked.
To paint china as simply relaxing on this issue is a huge insult imo and we should trust our comrades conducting one of the most successful socialist experiments a little bit more. Especially when we consider that the USSR might have spread itself a bit thin by helping around the globe before securing themselves
If China can make moves in the trade war like banning the sale of rare Earth metals then they can boycott Israel IMO
China is not officially banning the sale of refined rare earths. It mereley does not process export orders by the US.
Boycotting Israel would be a unilateral movement of active hostility that, unfortunately, would be viewed with hostility by the US and its vassals. China gets away with bilateral trade wars because they are acting in response to actions taken against it directly, not for a third party.
I am not gonna pretend like I specifically know a lot about their trade with Israel and why they continue some of their trade, but then also block investments in Israel.
I just know that they have been building up one of the most successful socialist experiments ever and that they have been phenomenal at navigating their politics and economy as to lift their people up into greater heights while not relying on the destruction of other people to achieve that.
I am sure that Israel is not an integral part of their economy and I am also sure that banning trade will not affect Israel at all because America and the EU are gonna pick up the slack
Anyway, trade is not support so maybe they just don’t see it as a problem at all and are concentrating on navigating the downfall of the empire and dodging the lash outs while trying not to agitate them into nuclear war.
‘They’re actually sweating profusely and waiting to hit the big communism button’ is really not convincing
Literally no one said that and you made that up completely. They are supporting anti-imperialist causes on the globe just like Russia and the DPRK.
I swear you people just really want to start WW3 out of nowhere and it’s driving me crazy
What anti-imperialist causes is China supporting in any significant manner, besides just improving its own productive forces? Cuba is about to be destroyed through sanctions, Venezuela just had a coup orchestrated by the hegemon, one that China probably did nothing to intervene in. What exactly is China doing besides profiting from all sides?
I swear you people just really want to start WW3 out of nowhere and it’s driving me crazy
Imagine if we held all parties to the same standard we hold China wrt this genocide
Go and grab a gun and fight for the Palestinian resistance otherwise stfu I swear to god. Trade isn’t support! Trading with the entity is no worse than trading with the US itself.
Cuba is building up its solar energy infrastructure and is able to do so purely because of the existence of China. The global south is able to develop past neocolonial condemned poor development solely because of the USSR and now China. They are fulfilling an important role even if you personally would rather see a few million Chinese people die for the cause.
sorry, you’re right, the biggest opposition to the Western empire and capital should come from the destitute poor in the imperial core who are actively being hunted down by cops and ICE. Incredible vision for the future, sorry Palestine
Yes, unironically - do you expect Palestinians to swim across the ocean to come clean up the mess that your people is causing? Its the US thats bombing them!
Yeah the PRC just popped into existence and was never poor and destitute and being hunted by fascists you’re right we shouldn’t do anything and if the Chinese don’t sacrifice themselves by the millions they are the reason why everyone around the world suffers.
Entitled, pathetic behaviour.
Just like literally every country that has experienced revolution, yes. You think the commies in 1917 russia where not hunted down before they won? Feudal China fucking loved the commies, everyone knows that of course. The commies famously had a great and easy revolution in germany as well and the police just let them be.
Zero thought behind that reply and clearly just written in order to try to affirm your anti-china bias.
What anti-imperialist causes is China supporting in any significant manner, besides just improving its own productive forces? Cuba is about to be destroyed through sanctions, Venezuela just had a coup orchestrated by the hegemon, one that China probably did nothing to intervene in. What exactly is China doing besides profiting from all sides?
North Korea? Did the entire Korean war just go over your head?
The implicit threat from America has always been that if China starts exerting influence over Palestine, they will escalate North Korea - China is still technically at war with the US over this, peace was never agreed.
Imagine if we held all parties to the same standard we hold China wrt this genocide
But we do. Nobody criticizes any country for trading with the US despite the US being more heinous than the Zionist entity. It’s not comparable if you consider its entire history or the fact that the Zionist entity is a military, economic, intelligence, and somewhat political extension of the US anyways.
Nobody who hasn’t fallen for NATO talking points criticizes the Soviet Union trading with fascist Germany while the non-aggression pact was in effect and nobody criticizes the Soviet Union for trading with fascist Japan while the other non-aggression pact was in effect.
Nobody who hasn’t fallen for NATO talking points criticizes the Soviet Union trading with fascist Germany while the non-aggression pact was in effect and nobody criticizes the Soviet Union for trading with fascist Japan while the other non-aggression pact was in effect.
That’s a very good point, but the difference I see is that Israel and China are nowhere near economic peers. A boycott would devastate Israel and China would barely feel a thing from the loss in trade.
the Zionist entity is a military, economic, intelligence, and somewhat political extension of the US anyways.
There’s no such thing as an independent boycott of the Zionist entity especially since the Zionist entity is completely reliant on the US anyways. If anything, the real cynical kabuki theatre pro-wrestling move would be to partially boycott the Zionist entity while simultaneously increase trade with the US with the understanding that the US would use the increase in traded commodities to further subsidize the Zionist entity and fill in the holes left by the “boycott.”
The only real way to economically hurt the Zionist entity is to hurt the Zionist entity’s master. Notice how a lot of countries that have no economic ties to the Zionist entity like the DPRK also don’t have economic ties with the US either. Because the US is very willing to subsidize the Zionist entity and because the US has a much bigger economy than the Zionist entity’s, a complete boycott the Zionist entity is essentially just a partial boycott of the US and the Zionist entity. For various reasons, China is not ready to wage economic warfare in so open a fashion against the US.
A boycott could work if the US vassal is unimportant enough that the US would rather leave them to their fate than save them. If China boycotts an expendable US vassal and the US refuses to save them, it could open up opportunities for the US compradors in charge to be overthrown, ideally by anti-imperialist forces. However, this is 100% untrue for the Zionist entity, which is probably the US’s most valuable vassal to the point where it’s not even a vassal anymore since the Israeli political class is completely self-aware of the settler-colony’s value in destroying WANA unity among many other things.
They could stop profiting off of a genocidal fascist state for one.
Or they could not do that because there is nothing specifically wrong from profiting off of your enemies’ actions as long as you don’t rely on it for your entire economy. We don’t really deal with moralist arguments here
Yes, and the trade with the entity was that China got US miltech in the 90s (when it was still the top provider in the world) when no one else would trade it with them bc of sanctions and in exchange the colony gets AC units and some agriculture. Basically consumer goods.
I’m not going to do a good trade bad trade comparison because that’s meaningless but this was the historical reason for the normalization of relations with the zionist entity and the exporting country does get the most benefit out of it. There is a strict ban on exporting weapons or anything that could be made into weapons.
I can’t be in their mind but China is probably worried that if they completely change course it will only alienate them from the ties they’ve built in the region. Most countries in the region have normalized relations with the occupation, what is China supposed to do when they inherited a situation they had no hand in forming? Instead of yelling at them on english websites the CPC doesn’t read we should be demanding that our governments send Cuba oil.
Good quote!
Seems like sound logic. Trade with the genocidal ally of the increasingly fascistic global military super power while they systematically eliminate all other smaller “AES” states and major trade partners you have (or economically force them into submission) while you sit back and shore up your metaphorical walls.
Sounds like a one hell of a gamble to me.
Yada yada. The other comments in this thread already addressed everything and explained in easy terms why China is doing what they are doing.
Thank you for the well thought out eloquent response. It contributed much to the discussion.
There is just no more discussion to be had. All the bullshit you come up with has already been answered in this very thread.
Stop being a racist failure and just read the 100 comments here and be educated
Yeah I feel like, BE’s takes on China are pretty shit on the regular but honestly I would be lying if I said I didn’t feel like this sometimes. Most leftists on this site have agreed at one point or another that China’s international policies have a history of being… Not the best, but the second you criticize the lack of any real support for Palestine, all of a sudden you get a 10 pages essay about why their strategy of inaction is 10D chess and how they have to keep doing business with Israel and having their politicians literally praise trade deals with them in order to somehow eventually prevent the single last Palestinian child from being murdered.
Like we get it, they can’t really do shit because the west, and none of us is ready to die in nuclear hellfire. It’s the simple truth, but damn if they don’t make it come off like they really just don’t give a single shit about stopping it.
As bleak as it is, in my personal opinion, Palestine is doomed. The world will fail to do anything till it’s too late for them. The only powers that CAN stop it, have all but blatantly admitted they won’t. I know this will piss a lot of people off, and we should all still support them to the last, but I just don’t see this genocide being stopped in time.
but the second you criticize the lack of any real support for Palestine, all of a sudden you get a 10 pages essay about why their strategy of inaction is 10D chess and how they have to keep doing business with Israel and having their politicians literally praise trade deals with them in order to somehow eventually prevent the single last Palestinian child from being murdered.
This is just bad faith nonsense. People have really got to stop believing negative stuff they read about an AES project just because it aligns with what they already suppose is happening.
I can’t seem to find it in my bookmarks at the moment so maybe I didn’t bookmark it, but there was a thing just recently about a company that was having problems because of China having blocked new investments in israel and marked it as high risk since 2023. I could not figure out from that one story whether the blocking new investments part was recent or if that was also since 2023, but this is part of the problem. Most sources English-speaking people will come across about China organically are not sources coming directly from China about what China is doing.
I use this as an example because it demonstrates how it already isn’t as simple as “they are doing business with israel as normal”.
Another recent example, about Venezuela, was some people falling for an imperialist headline that claimed Venezuela was sending oil to israel and they took this as evidence of Delcy Rodriguez being a sellout. But official Venezuelan sourcing corrected this claim.
As for the stuff about “10D chess”, I can only assume you’re referring to analyses that delve into the situation China found itself in after the USSR got destroyed and why it has taken the path it has. It’s not 10D chess, it’s dialectical and historical materialism, which can probably sound convoluted sometimes, but that’s because 1) taking on a hegemonic global capitalist empire is complicated and 2) we’re largely trying to explain it from the outside in without having grown up in the Chinese context and being privy to how it all went down.
You’re welcome to challenge the analyses and do your own, but dismissing it as 10 page essays of excuses is not helping anyone. It’s pretty low effort to fling shit at people who are trying to understand the world and shout some moralist proclamations. It takes more effort to contribute to that understanding, but more importantly, it can require real sacrifice to take moral stands that have consequences for doing so that can result in a painful end.
And if the people of Palestine can be steadfast throughout the decades of torture and genocide they’ve faced, what is your excuse for proclaiming them doomed?
The burden for China to have to do something against the wests genocide when they have nothing to do with Palestine, even historically is weird. Despite that the diplomatic perspective of China has always been one of contesting the Golan heights, supporting North Korea and historic support of the PLO when it was a marxist entity.
To say they are not anti-colonial is wrong, they are also pro-trade and diplomancy - im not going to get mad at them for mirroring what the US does which is just bomb them.
I mean, they could do a Trump strategy and declare an economic blockade on Israel and put tariffs on anyone who does business with Israel. But they’re too busy complying to the WTO for some reason…
declare an economic blockade on Israel
To enforce that economic blockade, you have to declare war to the entire West and decouple completely from the Western system(USD, SWIFT, Maritime Shipping Routes, et all).
As long as the West is willing to save their Zionist dog by bleeding their economies dry, there is no viable way to do an economic blockade without a military siege.
The problem with people here is that they see the entity as something separate rather than something within the Western system. To eradicate Israel, you have to destroy the West.
Why don’t they stop Chinese companies from doing business with Israel then? At the very least they could do that.
Ending trade with Israel means nothing if the U.S. and the EU keep financing, arming, and shielding Israel on every international stage. If we delve into this idea further, we will actually find that it will hurt the Global South as a whole instead of actually hurting Israel because it will push the West for more vicious actions toward China(examples: weaponizing the USD, weaponizing maritime shipping and oil routes, worse coercion than before to the point of blackmail to isolate China from the Global South). As long as the viable alternatives to the Western system(USD, SWIFT, Maritime Shipping Routes, et all) are not ready, any actions like this from China will only trigger more confrontation that will affect everyone including the Palestinians.
That’s why I will highlight once again that seeing Israel as something separate from the West instead of something from within is a big problem that will only lead you to oversimplification.
If we really want the end to the genocide instead of performative actions that will lead us nowhere, Israel’s lifeline must be destroyed and that lifeline is U.S’s and EU’s. military aid, markets, weapons, UN protection. The US and the EU must collapse as a whole.
Excellent response (as always)!
I broadly agree with this. China has an obligation to do much more than they’re doing. Badempanada is confrontational, but he’s rarely just wrong. I fail to see how he’s wrong here, as well.
In what way do they have an obligation?
BadEmpanada is 70% acceptable, 30% very questionable takes
70% bad, 30% empanada
