Good managers are able to allocate resources–particularly human resources–to complete a task. I know that it’s a common trope to think that managers only take value instead of adding it, but it’s simply not true; processes and production are less efficient without effective management.
People working in production shouldn’t have to deal with clients/customers, nor should they be expected to coordinate with vendors, or even all other people involved in production. Production people are hired for their skill/expertise in production, so they should be left to do their job rather than taking on more jobs.
The flip side is that ineffective management can make processes and production less efficient than they would be without any management at all.
ITT: People who don’t know the difference between product, program, and project managers.
People who think managers are useless have either likely only worked for good ones or bad ones. Good ones make it look so easy it looks like they do nothing.
Quite often when I’m managing the work floor if we have a good week I have almost nothing to do on fridays. Sometimes the staff make comments about it and I always say the same thing “If I’m scrambling on Friday, it means I fucked up on Wednesday and we’re all going to have a shitty Monday.”
What some PMs don’t understand is they don’t lead the team but instead they should be supporting the team so that the job gets done on time. Shuffle around resources, reverse manage upper management, protect the team from being derailed etc.
This is in construction, though, and I’ve no idea about how the tech industry works.
This is my expereince, a good PM manages expectations and pushes back on the builder from trying to forge ahead with construction when the staging isnt right or areas arent ready, instead of being yes men and cracking the whip to make tradies get things done to appease their superiors. And they will negotiate cross-trade eith other PM’s or tradies to see what arrangements will make mutliple parties happy when there are clashes and try keep things uninterrupted so everyone can keep ticking away at their own tasks.
I understand the sentiment, but I had the pleasure of working with a great PM on a high profile project in my company and it was really good. The more moving parts and stakeholders there are, the more you’re going to need someone to manage the stream of information, set expectations, keep the focus on the end goal. It was very good and I learned a lot from them.
That is what a Principle investigator does. Some who’d been a PI for 30 years does not need a project manager.
This may come as a surprise to some, but project managers exist outside of software as well.
Hold up. Projects exist outside of software?
That was my title at the prototyping shop I worked for. Sounded more white collar than “foreman”.
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Management is needed, you let ppl do whtever they want and nothing gets done in any reasonable amount of time
Bullshit. I managed my projects and grants just fine when I was an academic. And until Giant Corporation bought our small ag biotech firm I ran my new product research and development just fine. When giant Corporation bought us I got saddled with someone who did fuck all besides irritate me by telling me what I already knew. As far as I could see they did fuck all. But probably made more money than I did or anyone else in my crew.
They’re only useless if they legitimately suck at their job or don’t give a fuck.
A good project manager will go a long way to keeping things running smoothly.
If a project appears as if it doesn’t need a project manager, the project manager is probably doing a great job
Project managers keep me from committing acts of arson to our issue management system lmao
The best PM I ever had was playing zone defense and just deflecting every possible thing that could disrupt the creative team. Let us cook for more than a sprint.
Bad ones are constantly coming up with new requests, mid-sprint adds, don’t really have answers, and create more blockers than they resolve.
Ah ha ha ha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah. Oh wait, you’re serious!?? ornery_chemist @mander.xyz English On the other hand a manager willing to yell at/stonewall the MBAs when they deliberately lie about misinterpret your recommendations and timelines is a godsend.
Who are you even replying to? What is this comment about?
It looks like you’re both laughing at @HalfSalesman@lemm.ee but also quoting a different comment supporting his stance.
He’s having a stroke or something
As a software guy, I love this. People building and running software products don’t need project managers. We ned product owners/managers. It’s a product, it has users, it doesn’t have an end date.
I think a super important thing people forget is a good PMs ability to always know where the data is that’s been received. Can’t tell you the number of times there’s been conversations “we’re waiting on x from the client” and the PM being long it’s right here in the standard location. How they remember everything I don’t know.
The PM’s job is to stop those doing the project from getting derailed. Literally manage the project. This means holding the stakeholder’s feet to the fire. If the steak holder agrees to the terms they need to accept the repercussions of changing requirements, and their own misunderstanding.
Bad PMs don’t hold the line. They don’t signal early when bad things may be coming soon. They let all the shit derail productivity.
This is why systems like Agile were created. By making derailment a ceremony it became acceptable to remove the onus of the stakeholder to really make sure the project is ready and worth it.
edit: i should read over my dictated comments a little better
“Steak holders” lol, autoincorrect got you, but at least it’s funny.
And I agree - good PM’s are incredible. Bad PM’s are useless.
They did it 3 times, that’s not autocorrect but full on boneappletea
I disagree, i think they did it on purpose for humour related reasons. I enjoyed it.
No it’s like those little things you use for corn on the cob
But for steak
When I go to a restaurant, I look for the steak holders.
you mean we aren’t talking about working in a kitchen?
Sadly the only thing I am missing from deGoogleing my android phone was the good voice dictation.
The worst PMs are people-pleasers who don’t set realistic expectations and promise things to clients that can’t be delivered reasonable.
But those are also often the people who get promoted because those making the decisions like a “Yes” man who tries to make people happy with great “customer service.”
If that were true, I’d get promoted more… Instead I just get used and get put on the complicated projects.
You’re to valuable to move you past this project! We really need you where you are!
Yes you’re right. I’ll just hang on a little bit longer and endure. It’s helping everyone and making a difference…
A good project manager is worth their weight in gold. Large scale projects are complex and have lots of moving parts. Someone who understands this and is good at keeping all the “parts” moving while heading off any potential issues is extremely valuable.
The problem is that often the people doing the hiring don’t know what it takes to run a large project, much less what good project management looks like. They just hire some idiot with an agile certification whose only skill is moving items around a kanban board in a way that gives the illusion that progress is being made.
Our project managers are salespeople, they over promise our capabilities, mostly because they don’t even know what we can do, and disappear the moment a contract is signed. Leaving it up to the employees who actually do the work to meet impossible expectations.
There’s been a few good project managers who get involved and check in on things, but there’s only been one (out of a dozen+ or so) in my 7 years working here who’s actually asked us what we can do and how long things take before taking in contacts. I’m sure they, or at least that kind of approach, will not last very long.
I would add to that: A lot of a good project manager’s job is shielding the team from bullshit from above.
You can push back on people randomly deciding that changes need to be made to the project, push back on requests for mandatory overtime or whatever, fight to expand the team when it needs to be expanded, intervene when someone “high up” is trying to single out some person on the team for blame, and so on and so forth. Even on projects where a lot of the organization can be done by the team itself (which is a lot of them), there’s a vital role just in having an advocate for the team present in “management.”
there’s a vital role just in having an advocate for the team present in “management.”
As a bench level employee, every time I’m asked how long something will take I have to take time to assess where I’m at, what needs doing, and when people in other departments will be able to get to their portion of the project (answer: fuck if I know), which takes even more time away from the project. Then I have to go back and figure out where I was and what I was doing on the project that I was working on. I’m typically on three or so projects at a time in various stages of complete, with one or two waiting in the wings. When you have a different person every day asking you about a different project than the one you’re working on at that exact moment, it seriously slows things down.
I was a project manager for a pretty large project last year at my job. I really tried my best to shield the developers from all the bullshit. We had a very difficult customer who changed their mind almost twice a week about things, demanded meetings about the progress 2-3 times a week, didn’t understand that the requested changes won’t be in the testsystem within a day of mentioning them (not even sending us a proper change request in writing, just mentioning them in a meeting) and so on. Not to mention talking with the higher-ups who got nervous when the customer kept complaining and explaining to them that we/the devs are working as fast as possible and that the customer is being unreasonable.
The worst part about that role was not the utterly irrational customer but our own colleagues in development. They unloaded all their frustration about the project on me. I tried to handle it, in a way it’s part of the job. I got shit on by the customer for not meeting their unreasonable demands and ridiculous timelines, got shit on by upper management because this project with this very important customer is having trouble, had to defend myself AND the rest of the team by showing that the customer doesn’t know what they want. Just to then turn around and get screamed at by a dev because he’s sick of having to go to our 1/2-hour-a-week meeting and also how come there’s been four change requests already. He told me I wasn’t doing my job, because all he wants is to implement the requirements as planned half a year ago but I kept sending change requests instead of doing my job as a project manager and shielding him from this shit. Wouldn’t believe me that if the customer had his way, he’d be getting four change requests per week.
Yeah, I’m pissed and also currently looking for a new job. And no way am I ever doing this shit job again, where you’re just everybody’s doormat and get yelled at by customers, bosses and your own team alike.
Yeah. Life is short man. I wish you luck in the search, 100%.
An old friend of mine was in a similar situation (worse, I think, if you can believe) and also getting shit for pay. After a while, he went to his boss and explained that he needed things A, B, and C to change if he was going to stay in this role. His boss started yelling at him and belittling him, he stuck to his guns and basically just reiterated what he had said.
Obviously, nothing changed, and so he told his boss he was out. When the next day he didn’t show up, his boss called him at home and started yelling at him again. He said it was like all the cares of the world, all the heaviness and stress just fell away suddenly, during the conversation. As it happened his boss was in the middle of yelling, “We don’t need you, you son of a bitch” or something like that, and he was able to cut in to say something along the lines “Hey, man, if you don’t need me, don’t call me. I’m at home. I did my part. You called me. Anything else I can do for you?”
The smile on his face when he relayed this part of the story to me was a wonderful thing to behold.
Agreed. I was involved in a project that lasted several years and the project manager was great at filtering out the bullshit and politics so it doesn’t go down to my level. They were also great as an interface between teams so I wouldn’t need to directly deal with people who are difficult to work with. I wish she was the project manager on the other projects I’m involved in right now.
Dependencies! Deliverables! Blockers!
Put me in coach, I’m ready!
Circle back, take this offline, T-shirt size
“Have you looked at the gantt chart? Are you on schedule?”
- Project Manager (keeps everything on their personal drive and somehow expects everyone to have access to it)
“The fuck is a gantt chart? I handle piss all day long”
- Me (smelling of piss and not giving a shit about whatever that is)
Dear God… I tried to think of some more from my time in that world, and all I could come up with was “when the rubber meets the road.”
There must be more, but I have forgotten. Is it finally wearing off? I’m free now, after so many years? I can just be happy?
I’m absolutely thrilled on your behalf to hear you’ve successfully sunsetted that legacy temporal paradigm—those kinds of linguistic feedback loops can really create mindshare bottlenecks, leading to suboptimal ideation and a lack of disruptive communication innovation. At the end of the day, it’s about leaning into agile thought leadership, pivoting away from antiquated verbiage, and unlocking next-gen linguistic bandwidth to drive scalable, high-impact dialogue. Remember: It’s not just about thinking outside the box—it’s about disrupting the box, burning the box, and monetizing the ashes for maximum stakeholder engagement!
Nice try, but you can’t touch me. I’m not reading this and I’m leaving to go get tacos.
The paradigm shift is strong with this one.
We’re so proud of you
I’d love a taco
If the food truck has Birria, get me a plate. I’ll get you back next time.
Said and done
Your clear grasp on the language as a SME goes a long way towards breaking down the silos within our resources. We’ll need to set a strong cadence in order to drive these new workflows from storming to norming. I’ll set a friendly follow-up to make sure your progress doesn’t get yellow-lighted in this week’s board review. I really appreciate your time on this task. Keep up the good work! Best, Robot.
Edit: Looks like I can give everyone 5 minutes of their day back!
My biggest ask is whether or not we can parking lot this.
Yeah, as a General Foreman in construction I would be up to my eyeballs in nonsense without my PM.
This and the following thread are great guidelines for would-be PMs.
Personally, however, I will avoid the role for the rest of my life, because it’s too much work.
This is the correct take.
Another problem is when management somehow manages to make a simple project into a crazy complex project.
I see two drivers of this: General empire building, more headcount under me == I am more important
Trying to use unvetted, low quality labor to do something being their abilities and trying to make it up with volume because corporate leadership declared it should be possible and anyone who says otherwise it’s a bad fit for the company.
A Project Manager is someone who thinks nine women can deliver a baby in one month.
“Hellen, you were supposed to only do the left arm! What am I supposed to do with a whole baby!?”
This fairy tale still lives? Sheesh, some people really are dense. Like, neutron star kind of dense
I don’t have a project manager and shit can’t get done because I don’t have the authority to get other people to do their job but I’m still held accountable for its progress. My direct manager thinks I’m supposed to do it even though it’s not in my job title. I’m thinking of finding another job.
Sounds like your manager is the project manager lmao
He doesn’t even show up to the weekly project meetings and relies on updates from our 1:1’s.
That’s some advanced management, i wonder what his solitaire time record is.
