I’ll answer your question with another question: is it Vegan to eat bacon made from a pig you personally raised up from birth after it dies naturally having lived a full life?
If you define Veganism as a diet, then bacon’s bacon. If you define Veganism as a personal reaction to the cruelty of industrial farms, then perhaps this is how you get Vegan bacon. If you define Veganism as something more spiritual, then perhaps desecrating your dear friend’s corpse by eating it is even worse.
Isn’t roadkill another symptom of human cruelty, i.e. building roads and cars, creating a death trap that cuts through eco systems? The only real difference is that roadkill exists because of carelessness rather than intention.
Roadkill is a side effect of our advancement as a civilization. Unfortunately there is no way to avoid using cars or transportation if you want to keep living in our society.
Roadkill is akin to crop deaths, a side effect of our advancements. No other way to keep our society, but animal farming can be completely avoided and it’s easy and cheap once you get to it.
At this point, the number of cars is about as disconnected from human progress as the consumption of animal products is. Much like we could easily remove the majority of animal product consumption, we could also remove the majority of cars and car miles.
Being vegan requires only to change your buying choices. What your’e suggesting requires one to plant/locally source everything you consume, work close to your home, and completely change your means of transportation.
Veganism is about not exploiting animals as practicable and possible. Which one do you recognize is practicable and possible for most humans?
I am saying reduce the number of cars, but not to zero. I’d guess that in developed nations, maybe 20% or 30% of cars are actually needed (obviously depending on the country and the local level of car use). Similarly, some percentage of animal products is actually useful even in developed nations (for now), e.g. for pregnant women or people with weird allergies.
And of course, society needs to support lifestyle choices for them to be viable. That’s the same for veganism and a life without a car.
I believe we should tackle the problems we can solve right now, if you can stop using cars and source locally, that’s great.
Most of us can already change to a vegan lifestyle and stop contributing to intentionally killing animals that don’t want to die. Once most people get onboard with that, then we should address accidental deaths.
Incorrect. The US was built on passenger rail travel. It just wasn’t as profitable as freight and also once cars started becoming a thing then car interest groups started fucking things up to make more money.
We had a world class transcontinental rail system that was stunningly expansive. Much of it, especially the branch lines that went just about everywhere people built towns and cities, has been abandoned, sold, or converted to bike paths. Now we have basically a freight only system with near zero branch service, and some local and inter-city rail transit that is utterly shitty by developed world standards.
ho boy you’ve obviously never lived anywhere super rural. When the nearest house is 15 miles away, you need some form of transportation better than a bike.
This is a very “never lived anywhere but the city” take
I guess rural living didn’t exist between 1900 and the beginning of human civilization did it? Because this is a very “ignorant of history and can’t imagine an alternative” take, which doesn’t reflect well upon you.
Lol and things took exponentially longer and had a massive time investment to go anywhere.
Don’t get me wrong I’m not big on car centric design, but pretending personal transportation isn’t and hasn’t been important is just ignoring the practicality of the world.
Expecting me to believe that you didn’t have any ultieror motives in raising the pig you intend to eat is like convincing me your adult daughter consents to sex with you. Is it theoretically possible? Sure. Do I trust ANYONE enough to make that call in complete honesty? No. So it’s not vegan.
If we’re speaking in pure hypotheticals, then to me personally, if you raise the animal like you would a pet, then at the end of their life when they die naturally, if you butchered the remains, cooked it, and ate it, that would fall under my definition of vegan. But as you indicated, that’s going to depend on each vegan’s definition.
However, my point still stands that animals who die of natural causes are generally not healthy in the end. Think of elderly humans. They either die due to disease or cancer, or they are skin and bones, right?
There’s a reason animals are slaughtered earlier in their lives. Part of it is quicker turnaround on profit, but part of it is the quality of the meat.
The funny thing is that Vegans intentionally ignore the research showing plants react to pain. They would be horrified by the idea of cutting off a pig’s leg and eating that, or biting into a pig while it is still alive, and yet they eat raw plants that can still show signs of growth (or even start growing again if you put it in water). And they also cook plants that are still alive. Veganism comes down to a very narrow and specific definition of pain and cruelty based entirely on their personal perceptions from the animal kingdom, while convincing themselves that as long as they don’t know the manner in which plants interpret damage to themselves, it’s ok to continue eating them. They might as well be saying that a fish can’t talk to them, therefore the fish cannot feel pain.
I’ll answer your question with another question: is it Vegan to eat bacon made from a pig you personally raised up from birth after it dies naturally having lived a full life?
If you define Veganism as a diet, then bacon’s bacon. If you define Veganism as a personal reaction to the cruelty of industrial farms, then perhaps this is how you get Vegan bacon. If you define Veganism as something more spiritual, then perhaps desecrating your dear friend’s corpse by eating it is even worse.
I’m in the road kill is vegan camp, so sure after Winnie croaks chow down.
Isn’t roadkill another symptom of human cruelty, i.e. building roads and cars, creating a death trap that cuts through eco systems? The only real difference is that roadkill exists because of carelessness rather than intention.
Roadkill is a side effect of our advancement as a civilization. Unfortunately there is no way to avoid using cars or transportation if you want to keep living in our society.
Roadkill is akin to crop deaths, a side effect of our advancements. No other way to keep our society, but animal farming can be completely avoided and it’s easy and cheap once you get to it.
At this point, the number of cars is about as disconnected from human progress as the consumption of animal products is. Much like we could easily remove the majority of animal product consumption, we could also remove the majority of cars and car miles.
Being vegan requires only to change your buying choices. What your’e suggesting requires one to plant/locally source everything you consume, work close to your home, and completely change your means of transportation.
Veganism is about not exploiting animals as practicable and possible. Which one do you recognize is practicable and possible for most humans?
I am saying reduce the number of cars, but not to zero. I’d guess that in developed nations, maybe 20% or 30% of cars are actually needed (obviously depending on the country and the local level of car use). Similarly, some percentage of animal products is actually useful even in developed nations (for now), e.g. for pregnant women or people with weird allergies.
And of course, society needs to support lifestyle choices for them to be viable. That’s the same for veganism and a life without a car.
I believe we should tackle the problems we can solve right now, if you can stop using cars and source locally, that’s great.
Most of us can already change to a vegan lifestyle and stop contributing to intentionally killing animals that don’t want to die. Once most people get onboard with that, then we should address accidental deaths.
Using fur instead of most plastic fabrics is the environmental choice. As an environmentalist, Fur/Leather are the best choices for clothing.
I’m all about human advancement, but nothing about cars is required. If it were trains, sure I’m with you.
Train networks good enough for people to travel wherever they want are difficult on the scale of large countries like Canada, the US, and Russia.
Incorrect. The US was built on passenger rail travel. It just wasn’t as profitable as freight and also once cars started becoming a thing then car interest groups started fucking things up to make more money.
We had a world class transcontinental rail system that was stunningly expansive. Much of it, especially the branch lines that went just about everywhere people built towns and cities, has been abandoned, sold, or converted to bike paths. Now we have basically a freight only system with near zero branch service, and some local and inter-city rail transit that is utterly shitty by developed world standards.
deleted by creator
“Nothing about cars is required”
ho boy you’ve obviously never lived anywhere super rural. When the nearest house is 15 miles away, you need some form of transportation better than a bike.
This is a very “never lived anywhere but the city” take
I guess rural living didn’t exist between 1900 and the beginning of human civilization did it? Because this is a very “ignorant of history and can’t imagine an alternative” take, which doesn’t reflect well upon you.
Lol and things took exponentially longer and had a massive time investment to go anywhere.
Don’t get me wrong I’m not big on car centric design, but pretending personal transportation isn’t and hasn’t been important is just ignoring the practicality of the world.
deleted by creator
Expecting me to believe that you didn’t have any ultieror motives in raising the pig you intend to eat is like convincing me your adult daughter consents to sex with you. Is it theoretically possible? Sure. Do I trust ANYONE enough to make that call in complete honesty? No. So it’s not vegan.
If the pig dies naturally, you probably don’t want to eat it, right? Because it was either from disease, or it’ll be a really un-tasty pig 🤷♂️
If a human is part of nature… Isn’t being killed by a human a natural death?
It’s a hypothetical. Assume for the sake of the exercise that the pig is the tastiest to ever live by sheer unknowable chance.
If we’re speaking in pure hypotheticals, then to me personally, if you raise the animal like you would a pet, then at the end of their life when they die naturally, if you butchered the remains, cooked it, and ate it, that would fall under my definition of vegan. But as you indicated, that’s going to depend on each vegan’s definition.
However, my point still stands that animals who die of natural causes are generally not healthy in the end. Think of elderly humans. They either die due to disease or cancer, or they are skin and bones, right?
There’s a reason animals are slaughtered earlier in their lives. Part of it is quicker turnaround on profit, but part of it is the quality of the meat.
The funny thing is that Vegans intentionally ignore the research showing plants react to pain. They would be horrified by the idea of cutting off a pig’s leg and eating that, or biting into a pig while it is still alive, and yet they eat raw plants that can still show signs of growth (or even start growing again if you put it in water). And they also cook plants that are still alive. Veganism comes down to a very narrow and specific definition of pain and cruelty based entirely on their personal perceptions from the animal kingdom, while convincing themselves that as long as they don’t know the manner in which plants interpret damage to themselves, it’s ok to continue eating them. They might as well be saying that a fish can’t talk to them, therefore the fish cannot feel pain.