- cross-posted to:
- main@hexbear.net
- cross-posted to:
- main@hexbear.net
THROWBACK cross-post from: https://hexbear.net/post/49520
Seriously tho these people can’t be serious, right? Like this has to be a fucking op
THROWBACK cross-post from: https://hexbear.net/post/49520
Seriously tho these people can’t be serious, right? Like this has to be a fucking op
Yes an extremely weak argument. Arguably not an argument. It’s one of those emotional truths that seem to just be accepted as fact nowadays.
My inherited experience is one of living in Ukraine in the Pale. Being victims of pogroms and extreme violence in the russian empire until the soviets came to power and afforded my family opportunities that they couldn’t have possibly dreamed of whilst living in extreme poverty in the Shtetl. Then having to deal with a bunch of nazis and nazi collaborator fucks for decades. That’s only on one side of my family which was lucky, by the way. The other side had huge portions killed because of said nazi collaborators. So who’s inherited experience is more valid?
Yours is just as valid and I think you’d be equally disappointed if someone shit on it just based on the fact that you weren’t born when Pale stopped existing in 1915.
Everyone’s experience is different, based on a ton of factors outside of who’s currently in power. Distant republics like Armenia, for example, certainly did not have the same experience as we did in Ukraine, but my argument stands.
Elevating a view point that is based on ignorance, vibes-based understanding of politics and economy, and–let’s be frank–lies with the express purpose of silencing dissenting opinions is, in fact, not respecting everyone’s experience. Sometimes certain voices need to shut the fuck up and listen to other’s experiences because what they believe to be true is just something absorbed through passive ideological osmosis.
You also speak as if I don’t frequently experience at least mild antisemitism when I express this perspective. I do, depending largely on where I am. A lot of people don’t care about bandera nazis in Ukraine currently, so pointing to this nazi history tends to spark a bad response.
I disagree and you are countering your own point by saying your experience is more valid than his.
Describing your experience or even that of your ancestors without spewing hate or insults is ok in my book and it’s human nature to arrive at different conclusions.
I really didn’t mean my comment to get into specifics of current situation in Ukraine and you can choose not to believe my experience. I experienced zero antisemitism in recent encounter with group you call nazis, currently defending their own country, with a very prominently displayed star of David and better russian than Ukrainian. Can’t say the same thing about the time my family left.
someone’s personal anecdotes, especially anonymously given on the internet, without hard evidence to back it up, are meaningless in the face of data and detailed reports, this is a basic aspect of any serious research. it is absolutely absurd to accept everyone’s interpretation of events equally given the material conditions that shape people’s beliefs. the poster screenshotted lived through capitalism, not communism, and uses that time period to denigrate communism, even though it was not the dominant ideology at the time for a while. that is absurd, and recognizing that is not ‘’‘invalidating someone’s experiences’‘’.
and then you randomly jump to defending ukrainian (alleged) nazi militias. Which group did you meet i wonder, and what would i find if i googled their history or iconography? like, it is an objective fact that many of the militias in the country are nazis and use nazi iconography and espouse beliefs identical to nazi beliefs, in addition to their war crimes against ethnic russians, jews, roma, LGBT people, and the disabled. there is ample UN reporting on this issue, and your nice, friendly interaction with these alleged nazis does not counter that.
https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/e/7/233896.pdf
https://press.un.org/en/2022/ga12483.doc.htm
https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14823.doc.htm
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/ukraine-has-nazi-problem-vladimir-putin-s-denazification-claim-war-ncna1290946
https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/Documents/Countries/UA/Ukraine_14th_HRMMU_Report.pdf
https://www.state.gov/reports/2018-country-reports-on-human-rights-practices/ukraine/
https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/05/02/the-historian-whitewashing-ukraines-past-volodymyr-viatrovych/
https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/white-supremacists-other-extremists-respond-russian-invasion-ukraine
https://thehill.com/opinion/international/359609-the-reality-of-neo-nazis-in-the-ukraine-is-far-from-kremlin-propaganda/
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/ukraine-s-got-a-real-problem-with-far-right-violence-and-no-rt-didn-t-write-this-headline/
https://cisac.fsi.stanford.edu/mappingmilitants/profiles/azov-battalion
My point isn’t that my lived experience is more valid. My point, which I should have made explicit, is that lived, inherited, whatever experiences are inherently contradictory, so they are not useful alone. You have to look at the current and historical sociopolitical and economic situations in order to properly place testimony into context. Also it’s a reddit post from a kid who is regurgitating half-baked information from their parents. It’s not some important testimony about living conditions in the soviet union, its someone looking for attention.
Lots of fascists love Israel and zionism btw, it allows them to avoid accusations of antisemitism while pushing adjusted nazi propaganda and at the same time accuse others of antisemitism. So call the significant Ukrainian far right segments neo-fascists, banderites, ultranationalists, they are tied into the history of nazi reaction in Ukrainian history regardless of their current, individual stance on jews (plenty still hate jews). And not every Ukranian is a fascist, of course. Plenty of forced conscripts. Plenty of people who felt compelled to fight and have been callously sent into a meat grinder. I’m not really interested in maintaining the “brave defender” romanticized narrative bullshit. It ignores the realities of opinions of people living near the front on both sides, they don’t care how things end up they just want the killing to stop. These deaths are in no small part the fault of the Ukrainian far right which has consistently escalated and refused to stop attacking the breakaway regions of Eastern Ukraine prior to the outbreak of the war. Regardless of how one feels about this war or Russia these ultranationalist groups have only worsened the situation and everyone would’ve been better off with them being jailed or executed by the state. Perhaps a peace accord with the DPR and LPR as federated entities within Ukraine, rather than a series of bullet ridden ceasefires.
Just imagine Germany invading Belgium - claiming that Germans were oppressed in a bordering region that happens to be the location of a very lucrative business opportunity for Germany. Then imagine someone saying this hateful nonsense 2 years into the war:
I hope you understand why I don’t want to continue this conversation.