You don’t understand. It’s only a mental disorder because we have built environments for people that are not suitable for everybody. It’s possible that there may not exist an environment that makes any mental disorder not be a problem, but ADD and ADHD in my opinion is not one of them. Many countries don’t recognize these as a mental disorders because they haven’t built a society that causes problems for people with ADD or ADHD.
As someone with ADD I find it a bit ridiculous that because I can’t pay absolute attention on something I’m uninterested in while stuck in a room unable to leave that I have a mental disorder. The problem doesn’t lie with me, but with the environment I am in. But alas, that is just how a mental order is defined.
So much to unpick here, and so little inclination to bother. Like many with ADHD, I’m sick of dealing with the constant disinformation and toxic positivity that surrounds this condition - and which you’re contributing to.
If you think ADHD is about attention, then you really still don’t get it. Go and watch Dr Russell Barkley’s videos on YouTube. There’s a seminar about 2.5 hours long that is well worth the time.
I’m curious what you would change about (Western?) society to make ADHD manageable like it apparently already is in “many countries,” in concrete well defined terms. Not sure how society could negate the emotional regulation issues that frequently come with ADHD. I would also emphasize there’s a distinction between “a society where people with ADHD can function” and “a society perfectly suited for people with ADHD.”
I’m sensing that ADHD is a label thrust upon you, and if you feel you function fine without any sort of treatment it’s probably not accurate. It’s also now occurring to me how hilariously easy it would be to troll any sort of mental health issue. Depression isn’t a disorder it’s just SADNESS coming from MODERN SOCIETY and we just need to uncheck the CAUSE DEPRESSION box in society’s configuration.
Environmental factors can certainly exacerbate mental disorders like ADHD, but they are not the sole cause. Just because there are countries that don’t recognize mental disorders as well as others just means they are not up to snuff.
What you described in your second paragraph is just being bored. Not being able to focus on uninteresting topics in a poor environment is standard for most people.
I’m going to support what the person you responded to said, you don’t know what ADHD is.
As someone with ADHD, I cannot regulate my attention to things I do care about or things I don’t care about. I struggle daily with doing basic tasks. I can’t maintain hobbies and have difficulty with maintaining a relationship. Finances and budgets are impacted by difficulty with regulating impulses. My working memory causes me to forget things and people quite frequently. Tasks which are not emergencies take a monumental amount of effort to begin. This impacts my work and my income.
Because you might have a specific type of ADD and are relatively well functioning doesn’t mean that others don’t struggle with it’s symptoms regularly.
It more sounds that the poster has either extremely mild ADHD or a self-diagnosis, but I’m also guessing and have no medical training.
I experience exactly the same as you. Maintaining anything, be it a habit, relationship, hobby, promise or pretty much anything else is frustratingly hard.
My lack of impulse control has gotten me in some major trouble and decisions I made there were absolutely impacted by my adhd and lack of dopamine.
If it affects day to day life and as such is absolutely a disorder. For the longest time I maintained that it didn’t affect me, but the more and more I understand about how we function differently to NTs the more I realize that I have so many coping mechanisms that I manage through the day I don’t even think about them anymore.
They’re as simple as setting 2 alarms in the morning because I need the inertia of being grumpy about waking up the second time to get out of bed, or having microwaveable meals in the freezer at all times, but I’d fall apart without them.
They’re saying society is set up and engrained in a way where the best solutions for you and I are only as good as torturing ourselves with alarms and keeping a steady supply of frozen convenience fees.
They’re saying it’s only a “disorder” in a negative sense because society has failed to understand that the way things “work” and the traditional ways heavily favor the A-type extroverted morning people (sociopaths) who cannot comprehend how their routines might not be universal. Everyone is forced to live with it regardless because banking hours and business meetings exist for them.
You’re complaining about the very thing he’s saying is forcing you to be “disordered”
There are no environmental changes to be made to remind myself to eat at least once a day, because if I don’t I’ll go days without eating and nearly collapse by the end.
I’m not torturing myself with alarms, rather I’m using the tools I have to make my life liveable. I keep the convenience foods because when it’s been a week since I’ve eaten I can’t get the energy together to go and get something, and can’t wait for something to come to me. It’s about myself making my life easier, rather than forcing my way around barriers setup by society.
ADHD is a disorder because it impacts our ability to produce dopamine. A chemical deficiency causes simple, normal tasks to not feel rewarding. That’s why you see so many people with ADHD doing everything they can to get some kind of dopamine hit. NTs don’t have this issue. They produce dopamine (in smaller quantities) for smaller tasks. There’s a chemical reward for finishing a task. With ADHD there is no dopamine for those small tasks, so we struggle to self-motivate, as we know there’s no payoff at the end.
Firstly, I have ADHD, and have lived with it for 40 years.
You’re looking at it on a different scale than they are. You are looking internally, while they are talking about external social pressures which force you to accept that there is no alternative to trying to be the triangle in the square hole (which conveniently comes with extra fees and stress.) Our inability to regulate dopamine is an issue exacerbated by the environment we exist within. The simple short is we’re fucking bored, we need a partner/hypeman/twin to bypass chemical shortcomings, and NTs can’t relate so they don’t care enough to make changes, which is unfortunate because they’re in charge, usually.
You are not an island. There absolutely are environmental changes to be made. A good start would be a supportive partner who understands and doesn’t judge you for your inability to make the brain chemicals happen as expected. This means they’re not hounding you over things they find more urgent than you do, they’re not holding you to unrealistic expectations, and maybe they don’t even mind cooking for you.
That is still hindered by the social connotation of being “disordered” making everything more difficult because you’re different. Going out on a limb and assuming relationships have been difficult for you as well? Same root problem, that still isn’t you or ADHD but other people’s perceptions of you as a result of your ADHD and their lack of understanding.
Have you ever had the opportunity to live your life for a week or a month without alarms, without a schedule, without someone telling you what you should be doing or when? Just what you want?
I recognize that’s a lot, and most couldn’t afford to entertain the idea but that’s kinda what they’re talking about with environmental changes - people can’t afford to not conform to unnatural/arbitrary schedules and routines.
You might be fascinated by what will happen. My sleep schedule regulated to 7-8 hours, granted it was offset by about 14 hours from everyone else’s schedules - but for the first time ever, I had regular sleep patterns. What followed was a burst of energy, creative output, excitement for the future and a somewhat on-demand hyperfocus state.
Something as simple as having the opportunity to just let my body dictate it’s own schedule allowed my brain to focus during my actual peak hours that have always been wasted on exhaustedly trying to sleep prior. Feeling like the things I’m doing are making meaningful and exciting progress made it easy to stay interested, fueling the next days hyperfocus. And it all fueled a 6 month streak of 15-18 hours a day working on something I cared about.
Sounds a lot more like making life easier, just wish it didn’t come with the additional challenge of getting to stores while they’re open. Your grumpiness over being woken by alarms, while a functional tool, is a direct result of you being in a position where you have to force yourself to fit a schedule against your body’s natural cycle. How do you think that undercurrent of frustration manifests throughout the day?
We aren’t lazy and although we produce lower quantities, it doesn’t mean we’re incapable. We just have to have environmental conditions met (rested, not stressed, active during your peak hours, not being interrupted, and being supported by others to make executive shortcomings a non-issue.) while facing an idea or thought we find meaningful/fascinating/novel, whatever. Our motivations are outcome based, so every layer of stress sabotages our ability to envision a successful execution - we just do that evaluation before we’ve even started or recognized our stress levels. That becomes even more of a challenge when you’re forced to accept arbitrary work for mere survival. I get it.
I know underlying stress is what sets off my need to problem solve and jump tasks until I find the solution to the stress - but the moment I eliminated that contributing factor I was able to align with my brain again with some other mitigating techniques, rituals, and acceptance that while I could invoke hyperfocus ( I still don’t get to choose what gets it, at least not directly.) But I can actually function in the way I’m supposed to for once.
I find it a bit ridiculous that because I can’t pay absolute attention on something I’m uninterested in while stuck in a room unable to leave that I have a mental disorder.
If that’s all you think ADD and ADHD are, then I’m with the other guy…you don’t understand ADHD.
Sounds like you stopped learning about this in the 90s. It’s not even “labelled” as ADD anymore because it doesn’t truly grasp the scope of the disorder.
You’re a primitive human in the wild. You’re hunting, tracking the prey for a long time. You get distracted and start doing something else. You die. Perhaps even your entire family may starve. This is why it’s a disorder across very different environments. It can affect the person’s ability to cope across extremely different environments.
Likewise, if you have impulse control problems with your ADHD, you might not be able to prevent yourself from making a noise or movement at the wrong time, scaring off the prey or getting the attention of a predator (like a lion). Well, there goes your survival once again.
This is how a mental disorder is medically defined. What are you suggesting?
That you don’t understand ADHD.
You don’t understand. It’s only a mental disorder because we have built environments for people that are not suitable for everybody. It’s possible that there may not exist an environment that makes any mental disorder not be a problem, but ADD and ADHD in my opinion is not one of them. Many countries don’t recognize these as a mental disorders because they haven’t built a society that causes problems for people with ADD or ADHD.
As someone with ADD I find it a bit ridiculous that because I can’t pay absolute attention on something I’m uninterested in while stuck in a room unable to leave that I have a mental disorder. The problem doesn’t lie with me, but with the environment I am in. But alas, that is just how a mental order is defined.
So much to unpick here, and so little inclination to bother. Like many with ADHD, I’m sick of dealing with the constant disinformation and toxic positivity that surrounds this condition - and which you’re contributing to.
If you think ADHD is about attention, then you really still don’t get it. Go and watch Dr Russell Barkley’s videos on YouTube. There’s a seminar about 2.5 hours long that is well worth the time.
I might need some more education apparently, so the seminar you’re talking about is this one ?
https://piped.video/watch?v=YSfCdBBqNXY?si=Wpr0koBLjoV6CF_o
I’m curious what you would change about (Western?) society to make ADHD manageable like it apparently already is in “many countries,” in concrete well defined terms. Not sure how society could negate the emotional regulation issues that frequently come with ADHD. I would also emphasize there’s a distinction between “a society where people with ADHD can function” and “a society perfectly suited for people with ADHD.”
I’m sensing that ADHD is a label thrust upon you, and if you feel you function fine without any sort of treatment it’s probably not accurate. It’s also now occurring to me how hilariously easy it would be to troll any sort of mental health issue. Depression isn’t a disorder it’s just SADNESS coming from MODERN SOCIETY and we just need to uncheck the CAUSE DEPRESSION box in society’s configuration.
Environmental factors can certainly exacerbate mental disorders like ADHD, but they are not the sole cause. Just because there are countries that don’t recognize mental disorders as well as others just means they are not up to snuff.
What you described in your second paragraph is just being bored. Not being able to focus on uninteresting topics in a poor environment is standard for most people.
I’m going to support what the person you responded to said, you don’t know what ADHD is.
Environmental factors? Cause? You have completely misunderstood. This is just a discussion of semantics.
Cool. Cool cool cool.
As someone with ADHD, I cannot regulate my attention to things I do care about or things I don’t care about. I struggle daily with doing basic tasks. I can’t maintain hobbies and have difficulty with maintaining a relationship. Finances and budgets are impacted by difficulty with regulating impulses. My working memory causes me to forget things and people quite frequently. Tasks which are not emergencies take a monumental amount of effort to begin. This impacts my work and my income.
Because you might have a specific type of ADD and are relatively well functioning doesn’t mean that others don’t struggle with it’s symptoms regularly.
100%
It more sounds that the poster has either extremely mild ADHD or a self-diagnosis, but I’m also guessing and have no medical training.
I experience exactly the same as you. Maintaining anything, be it a habit, relationship, hobby, promise or pretty much anything else is frustratingly hard.
My lack of impulse control has gotten me in some major trouble and decisions I made there were absolutely impacted by my adhd and lack of dopamine.
If it affects day to day life and as such is absolutely a disorder. For the longest time I maintained that it didn’t affect me, but the more and more I understand about how we function differently to NTs the more I realize that I have so many coping mechanisms that I manage through the day I don’t even think about them anymore.
They’re as simple as setting 2 alarms in the morning because I need the inertia of being grumpy about waking up the second time to get out of bed, or having microwaveable meals in the freezer at all times, but I’d fall apart without them.
They’re saying society is set up and engrained in a way where the best solutions for you and I are only as good as torturing ourselves with alarms and keeping a steady supply of frozen convenience fees.
They’re saying it’s only a “disorder” in a negative sense because society has failed to understand that the way things “work” and the traditional ways heavily favor the A-type extroverted morning people (sociopaths) who cannot comprehend how their routines might not be universal. Everyone is forced to live with it regardless because banking hours and business meetings exist for them.
You’re complaining about the very thing he’s saying is forcing you to be “disordered”
So I very fundamentally disagree with that.
There are no environmental changes to be made to remind myself to eat at least once a day, because if I don’t I’ll go days without eating and nearly collapse by the end.
I’m not torturing myself with alarms, rather I’m using the tools I have to make my life liveable. I keep the convenience foods because when it’s been a week since I’ve eaten I can’t get the energy together to go and get something, and can’t wait for something to come to me. It’s about myself making my life easier, rather than forcing my way around barriers setup by society.
ADHD is a disorder because it impacts our ability to produce dopamine. A chemical deficiency causes simple, normal tasks to not feel rewarding. That’s why you see so many people with ADHD doing everything they can to get some kind of dopamine hit. NTs don’t have this issue. They produce dopamine (in smaller quantities) for smaller tasks. There’s a chemical reward for finishing a task. With ADHD there is no dopamine for those small tasks, so we struggle to self-motivate, as we know there’s no payoff at the end.
Firstly, I have ADHD, and have lived with it for 40 years.
You’re looking at it on a different scale than they are. You are looking internally, while they are talking about external social pressures which force you to accept that there is no alternative to trying to be the triangle in the square hole (which conveniently comes with extra fees and stress.) Our inability to regulate dopamine is an issue exacerbated by the environment we exist within. The simple short is we’re fucking bored, we need a partner/hypeman/twin to bypass chemical shortcomings, and NTs can’t relate so they don’t care enough to make changes, which is unfortunate because they’re in charge, usually.
You are not an island. There absolutely are environmental changes to be made. A good start would be a supportive partner who understands and doesn’t judge you for your inability to make the brain chemicals happen as expected. This means they’re not hounding you over things they find more urgent than you do, they’re not holding you to unrealistic expectations, and maybe they don’t even mind cooking for you.
That is still hindered by the social connotation of being “disordered” making everything more difficult because you’re different. Going out on a limb and assuming relationships have been difficult for you as well? Same root problem, that still isn’t you or ADHD but other people’s perceptions of you as a result of your ADHD and their lack of understanding.
Have you ever had the opportunity to live your life for a week or a month without alarms, without a schedule, without someone telling you what you should be doing or when? Just what you want?
I recognize that’s a lot, and most couldn’t afford to entertain the idea but that’s kinda what they’re talking about with environmental changes - people can’t afford to not conform to unnatural/arbitrary schedules and routines.
You might be fascinated by what will happen. My sleep schedule regulated to 7-8 hours, granted it was offset by about 14 hours from everyone else’s schedules - but for the first time ever, I had regular sleep patterns. What followed was a burst of energy, creative output, excitement for the future and a somewhat on-demand hyperfocus state.
Something as simple as having the opportunity to just let my body dictate it’s own schedule allowed my brain to focus during my actual peak hours that have always been wasted on exhaustedly trying to sleep prior. Feeling like the things I’m doing are making meaningful and exciting progress made it easy to stay interested, fueling the next days hyperfocus. And it all fueled a 6 month streak of 15-18 hours a day working on something I cared about.
Sounds a lot more like making life easier, just wish it didn’t come with the additional challenge of getting to stores while they’re open. Your grumpiness over being woken by alarms, while a functional tool, is a direct result of you being in a position where you have to force yourself to fit a schedule against your body’s natural cycle. How do you think that undercurrent of frustration manifests throughout the day?
We aren’t lazy and although we produce lower quantities, it doesn’t mean we’re incapable. We just have to have environmental conditions met (rested, not stressed, active during your peak hours, not being interrupted, and being supported by others to make executive shortcomings a non-issue.) while facing an idea or thought we find meaningful/fascinating/novel, whatever. Our motivations are outcome based, so every layer of stress sabotages our ability to envision a successful execution - we just do that evaluation before we’ve even started or recognized our stress levels. That becomes even more of a challenge when you’re forced to accept arbitrary work for mere survival. I get it.
I know underlying stress is what sets off my need to problem solve and jump tasks until I find the solution to the stress - but the moment I eliminated that contributing factor I was able to align with my brain again with some other mitigating techniques, rituals, and acceptance that while I could invoke hyperfocus ( I still don’t get to choose what gets it, at least not directly.) But I can actually function in the way I’m supposed to for once.
If that’s all you think ADD and ADHD are, then I’m with the other guy…you don’t understand ADHD.
Sounds like you stopped learning about this in the 90s. It’s not even “labelled” as ADD anymore because it doesn’t truly grasp the scope of the disorder.
You’re a primitive human in the wild. You’re hunting, tracking the prey for a long time. You get distracted and start doing something else. You die. Perhaps even your entire family may starve. This is why it’s a disorder across very different environments. It can affect the person’s ability to cope across extremely different environments.
Likewise, if you have impulse control problems with your ADHD, you might not be able to prevent yourself from making a noise or movement at the wrong time, scaring off the prey or getting the attention of a predator (like a lion). Well, there goes your survival once again.