I agree to this. I was literally just in the shower thinking how Linux, the space station, and the Olympics are the only times we as humans come together to collaborate
@secret300 The project to discover elements 119 and 120 which previously were a US/Russia collaboration also put on hold. All of humanity moves backwards when we fight, nothing is gained.
@JWBananas@secret300 Yea you know the funny thing about that, CFC’s are heavy and tend to sink to the ground if not propelled into the stratosphere by rockets, say like the old Space Shuttle with it’s solid chlorine oxidizer boosters, or the various military missiles which mostly have been converted to liquid hydrogen and oxygen engines. But nah we got to spend $3k to replace our A/C because it contains CFC’s that never would have made it up into the atmosphere anyway because of you know, physics, little things like gravity, so the military can avoid blame.
If that was how it worked then we would have all suffocated long ago under all the argon that sank to the bottom of the troposphere. The atmosphere is turbulent and extremely good at mixing gases of varying densities, and CFCs last decades before being decomposed or removed from the air.
You know that Russia wasn’t able to compete in the Olympics or Paralympics this year, right? The individual athletes weren’t banned however, but they had to compete under a neutral banner and weren’t in the parade of nations.
Edit: I should have added, was disgusted because Israel were allowed to compete. Huge double standard there.
If I recall correctly Russia is not allowed to participate because of their state doping program not because of their politics. So unless there was an Israel state doping program discovered that’s not double standard.
That’s a valid point to make, but it’s actually both. Russian athletes would have been able to compete under the IOC flag if it was just the doping scandal, from what I understand.
I totally think them invading Ukraine is fucked up too but I also think the Israel situation is messed up too and would you be against someone maintaining code just because they are from Israel?
That would be wrong. Linux is supposed to be about more than political alignments its supposed to be a collaborative effort its always been about that.
This is wrong and its super wrong they don’t tell anyone what compliance they are following or who issued it to them which is also supposed to be against what open source is about.
@Midnight If Russia were the only one involved, and if weren’t provoked by outside powers like say, oh, the United States, yea I could agree with you but my knowledge of history precludes my accepting that explanation.
NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev HeardU.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, was part of a cascade of assurances about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet officials throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991, according to declassified U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents posted today by the National Security Archive at George Washington University.
The Ukraine Mess That Nuland MadeAssistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland engineered Ukraine’s regime change without weighing the likely consequences.
The West’s Sabotage of Peace in UkraineIn May of [2022] Ukrainian media reported that then-British prime minister Boris Johnson had flown to Kiev the previous month to pass on the message on behalf of the western empire that “Putin is a war criminal, he should be pressured, not negotiated with,” and that “even if Ukraine is ready to sign some agreements on guarantees with Putin, they are not.”
The War in Ukraine Was Provoked—and Why That Matters to Achieve Peace
The shooting war in Ukraine began with Yanukovych’s overthrow nine years ago, not in February 2022 as the U.S. government, NATO, and the G7 leaders would have us believe.
So many people forget that the Ukrainian Russian conflict never really ended, the idea that it was an unprovoked invasion is absurd, (and no, before someone decides to make a braindead comment, provoked does not mean justified.) There have been many leaked videos pre-invasion of violence towards both sides, and neither side made a proper effort to actually quell it, only surface level bullshit inorder to take the "moral ground:
Westerners usually don’t know any of that, because Western governments, NGOs, and corporate media erase all inconvenient context and history. I try to point folks toward developing real media literacy…
Holy shit I didn’t know admins in this place were full blown Russian lickers. I don’t know about you but I would gladly have my country join nato if that means not ending up like Georgia or now Ukraine twice.
Also congrats on getting Finland to finally join nato btw.
Right??? They act like they are concerned about what events could have taken place to ensure that the invasion never happened. Guess what could have occurred that would have been the biggest guarantee that the invasion could never happen? Ukraine joining NATO prior to the invasion…
All NATO wanted to do was to use Ukraine as a tool to weaken Russia, and now NATO will discard Ukraine like a used condom. That’s the fate of all the vassals of the empire.
NATO will continue expanding as more and more border countries don’t want to deal with limp dick Putin. Russia will be broken up to small territories and anything that remains of the federation will be scrapped and sold for salvage to finance rebuilding what has been lost.
That is what the US has wanted for the last 25 years, but it’s unlikely to happen. The Global North has very significantly de-industrialized itself, and its attempts at sanctions not only haven’t worked, but are having the effect of it isolating itself from the global majority. Russia has aligned with the Global South. Hence BRICS+ and the larger developing multipolar bloc that’s going its own way, ignoring the US’ “rules-based international order” sanctions, developing its own international balance of payments outside of US dollar hegemony, and working to get out from under the boot of the IMF’s & World Bank’s debt traps.
the federation will be scrapped and sold for salvage
@davel If the world were so simple then those with single digit IQ’s and no real knowledge of historical fact would be able to understand it, unfortunately it is not.
They’re not dumb; usually it’s that they live in the bubble of Western propaganda, while simultaneously believing that they haven’t been propagandized their whole lives.
People not only don’t know what’s happening to them, they don’t even know that they don’t know. — Noam Chomsky
And really, who even has the time and energy to know? It’s actually a lot of work, and we live under neoliberalism, where most of us are just trying to keep our heads above water. Plus, there’s no social or financial upside to bucking the hegemonic viewpoint.
@davel Everyone has their own perspective but I think most people here are trying to greatly over simply a complex situation with and Noam Chomsky offers only yet another perspective and I disagree with him on the issue of world government or extinction. I don’t think world government on a large scale, particularly the way it is now with no real citizenship representation, is particularly desirable.
We’re going a bit off in the weeds here 😂 but yes, Chomsky is what we Marxists call a “radical recuperator,” or a member of the “compatible left.” He’s done useful work, but ultimately he steers people back to the status quo.
Noam Chomsky and the Compatible Left: I, II, III, IV
@GammaGames They had other provocations such as what was happening to the Russian speaking people in Donbass, but the United States definitely sealed the deal.
@YaBoyMax Sorry I’ve watched enough of his speeches that I can’t come away with the same. I know there are a lot of deep state types trying to paint him as such so that we can get on with their ww III depopulation agenda.
“propaganda”? Oh. You mean like Russia started a full blown unprovoked war with a peaceful nation? That “propaganda”?
Sucks others got caught in the crosshairs, but that’s just what happens when your authoritarian government launches unprovoked wars and gets sanctioned.
NATO Expansion: The argument that NATO’s eastward expansion “provoked” Russia is often linked to Gorbachev’s 1990 talks with Western leaders. However, this promise was tied to Germany’s unification, not a blanket prohibition on expansion. And importantly eastern european countries sought NATO membership because of their historical (and justified) fears of Russian imperialism (a dynamic Marxists should understand as nations seeking sovereignty free from external dominance.)
Western Involvement in Ukraine: The U.S. supporting a regime change in Ukraine in 2014 is thought to be imperialism. But ignores the agency of Ukrainians, who led the Maidan protests because of already existing deep dissatisfaction with Yanukovych’s corrupt, oligarchic regime and his pivot to Russia. Supporting popular uprisings against oligarchs should align with Marxist values even if “the West” has its own interests
The Role of Fascism in Ukraine: Yes, Ukraine has issues with far-right groups like so many countries but exaggerating their influence as a justification for invasion serves to divert attention from Russia’s own reactionary politics. Far-right elements in Ukraine do not define the country’s political landscape, nor do they justify imperial aggression from another state. Russia has its own history of fostering right-wing authoritarianism.
Minsk Agreements: While the West" and Ukraine could be criticized for their handling of the Minsk agreements, Russia also violated these accords by continuing support for the separatists. Both sides share blame for the failure of Minsk, but it doesn’t make Russia’s invasion justified. Ukrainians didn’t provoke a full-scale invasion; they were defending their sovereignty.
NATO as a “Defensive” Alliance: Criticism of NATO’s imperialistic behavior is fair its actions in places like Libya show it isn’t 100% defensive. But in this case, NATO’s expansion was driven by countries seeking security from a historically imperialist power. Ukraine wasn’t “provoking” Russia by wanting self-determination; it was trying to secure its future.
You’re trying to push this “Actuall, but Ukraine DID provoke” narrative by mixing in unverified, ideologically biased material with references that are legitimate, but isolated incidents. Like linking far-right activity to justify the war conveniently ignores Russia’s (I should probably say everyone’s) own far-right issues. Marxists should reject imperialism in all its forms, including Russia’s actions in Ukraine.
Mostly NATO, and by that I mean mostly the US. The Ukrainian state is in bed with and dependent on the US, so yes it was and is a participant.
mixing in unverified, ideologically biased material with references that are legitimate
The implication here is, the more biased, the less trustworthy/factual. This is false, and anyway, I don’t think you fully see the bias baked into the supposedly unbiased sources. And “unverified” I suspect means not blessed by Western states (which are run by the capitalist class[1][2]) or Western NGOs (which are funded by Western states and the capitalist class) or Western corporate media (which are owned by the capitalist class).
isolated incidents
Liberals often view history that way, but historical materialists don’t.
Yes, Ukraine has ties with the U.S., but sovereign nations have the right to choose their alliances. Ukraine’s Western integration stems from its desire for self-determination, not just U.S. influence. Russia’s aggression isn’t justified merely because Ukraine sought NATO’s support.
Bias exists everywhere, but dismissing “Western” sources wholesale, while elevating openly ideological ones, doesn’t strengthen the argument. Marxist critique should apply equally to all capitalist states, including Russia, which operates under an oligarchic system that exploits its own people.12
While far-right elements in Ukraine are real, they’re a small part of the picture. Reducing Ukraine to these groups oversimplifies the conflict. Most Ukrainians are fighting for sovereignty, not fascism.
Russia’s actions are imperialist too, and as a Marxist, you should critique imperialism wherever it emerges, not just from the West.
I hardly dismissed Western sources wholesale. Plenty of my links are to Western corporate & NGO sources.
Ukraine’s Western integration stems from its desire for self-determination, not just U.S. influence.
I mean, you say that like the people of Ukraine chose that path, but they didn’t. The Ukrainian oligarchs did, specifically the oligarchs that aligned with the US for the 2014 coup. They decided to bet on that horse. But I think it’s a stretch to call that self-determination.
Yes, Russia is shitty as well, and no less an oligarchy than the US. And Ukraine has been shitty & famously corrupt for decades; that didn’t start with Poroshenko. Russia, if given its druthers, would be imperialist, but since it presently doesn’t, it presently isn’t. Putin tried to join NATO once, to join the imperialist club, but that was rejected, because the US wanted Russia Balkanized & plundered instead. Russia has figured out it’s better off allying with Global South countries than attempting imperialist adventures upon them. And this war has accelerated that allyship.
“The people of Ukraine didn’t choose that path, the oligarchs did.”
It’s true Ukraine has a history of oligarchic influence, but the 2014 Maidan protests were a massive, popular uprising. Ukrainians were fed up with Yanukovych’s corruption and his decision to abandon the EU agreement for closer ties with Russia. This wasn’t just oligarchs pulling strings; millions of Ukrainians demonstrated for a future that aligned with Europe, seeking more autonomy from Russia.
“Russia would be imperialist, but isn’t right now.”
I would argue that Russia is acting imperialistically. The annexation of Crimea, the war in Donbas, and now the invasion of Ukraine are clear examples of Russia asserting control over its neighbors. Even if it’s not globally imperialist like the U.S., these actions align with a regional imperialism that Marxists should still oppose.
Ultimately, this isn’t about picking sides between oligarchies, but supporting the principle of self-determination for Ukraine, including resisting imperialist aggression from any direction.
The Maidan protests were partially organic and partially inorganic. Yes there were people genuinely unhappy with the administration who protested. People were angry about the corruption before Poroshenko, and they’re angry about corruption today. Many western Ukrainians, especially Banderite western Ukrainians, were not happy with the election of Poroshenko and the the turn toward closer ties to Russia that it implied. But they were not the majority. The majority elected Poroshenko.
When the US wants regime change, it doesn’t do it from a blank slate. It investigates the endemic tensions and leverages them, inflames them. The US has kept clandestine ties with fascist elements in western Ukraine since forever. They leveraged them, and presumably whichever oligarchs who wanted to join in, under cover of popular protest. The job of Western NGOs like the National Endowment for Democracy job is to facilitate coups. “A lot of what we do today was done covertly 25 years ago by the CIA.” — Allen Weinstein, co-founder of the NED. Western media’s job is to paint color revolutions as entirely organic.
Yes, the self-determination of the Ukrainian people, the western Ukrainians and the eastern Ukrainians both.
And I believe in the right of the Eastern Ukrainians to not be attacked by fascist western Ukrainian paramilitaries[1] with tacit & overt support from the Ukrainian government and the US.
It certainly is violent, as all invasions are, though it’s not a full scale invasion. Russia has not fully activated its military, and it has no intent on taking all of Ukraine. That would be a terrible idea, if for no other reason than the fact that eastern western Ukraine is very anti-Russian and has a lot of fascists who are virulently anti-Russian. It would be a terrible idea to try to permanently occupy it. In contrast, the annexation of Crimea was practically a cake walk, because most of the people of Crimea wanted to be annexed. And it seems it was for the best for them, because they didn’t suffer years of attacks by western Ukrainians like their neighbors to their north.
Still, by international law the invasion was & is illegal, and it certainly is violent. After the 2014 coup, an anti-Russian government—blessed by Victoria Nuland (who had been on the ground handing out cookies for the coup)—was installed, eastern Ukraine declared its independence. This independence was not recognized the Ukrainian government of course. It was a very messy situation. Ukraine was in a state of civil war from the coup until the invasion. I don’t know what percentage of the people of eastern Ukraine welcomed the Russian invasion/liberation. 30%, 50%, 70%? I have no idea.
Unfortunately, as complicated as that all is, realpolitik can’t be ignored. For an analogy, consider the Cuban missile crisis (BTW we now know that the reason Russia & Cuba did that was because the US had secretly installed nuclear weapons in Turkey).
Imagine if Russia (or say China) were expanding its “defensive alliance” into south & central America, and making plans to expand it further, right up to the California–Texas border, which would likely lead to “defensive” nuclear weapons right on our back porch. Maybe they’re in talks with Canada as well, in an effort to “contain” the US. Realistically—regardless of what is internationally legal (which the US usually ignores anyway)—what would the US do?
The US has has been working a plan to break up Russia for the last thirty years. Ukraine is just a pawn to the US. This is the confrontation the US wanted, with the hopes of starting that Balkanization. It doesn’t give a rat’s ass about Ukrainians’ lives, never mind their self-determination. The US does this kind of thing all the time.
My question was: how does the violence of the invasion help the self determination of Ukrainian people?
I’ll be more explicit: why not simply acknowledge that the invasion is not only unlawful, but deeply immoral – and completely contradictory to the self determination of a people?
The eastern Ukrainians, who, after the Maidan coup, declared independence from the unelected government, and were subsequently terrorized by the Banderites, with tacit and overt support from the Ukrainian and US governments?
The men being pulled off the streets and pushed to the front lines against their will?
.
I doubt you actually know what real-life Ukrainians actually want, because I suspect your vision of the Ukrainian people may as well be from the Marvel Cinematic Universe. And I suspect your conceptualization of self-determination is equally undeveloped.
I think the reason you’re interested in the Ukrainian people’s self-determination is because our governments and corporate media have spend the last two years telling you to care. But not real-life people. These are unrealized, cartoon Ukrainian people, who all coincidentally want exactly the same thing that Zelensky says Ukraine wants. They want you to imagine that the “self-determination” that all these cartoon Ukrainians want is exactly the same thing that the extremely corrupt, undemocratic Ukrainian government wants.
When I say I care about the Ukrainian people’s self-determination, I’m talking about the real-life, flesh-and-blood working class people, not the Ukrainian state.
Does invading your neighbor count as international collaboration? Not that all Russian people can be held directly responsible for the actions of their government.
@theunknownmuncher The US has been involved in probably 300 regime changes throughout the world, has invaded many countries, including those that we were not affiliated with. Russia invades a neighboring country when we install a leader that is going to allow us to put missiles on their border. I really hate to see political hegemony get in the way of a good collaborative effort, we all suffer for it if we allow this.
The US has been involved in probably 300 regime changes throughout the world, has invaded many countries, including those that we were not affiliated with.
Absolutely fair point. I agree with you on this portion of your comment.
@theunknownmuncher And I could give countless other examples of other countries. I don’t agree with the war, but I also know if we hadn’t installed Zelenskyy and if the United States had honored our promise to Russia not to extend NATO past East Germany, then it would not have happened. So I understand that it is hardly one sided on Russias part. If we didn’t fund Ukraine, if we didn’t offer them membership in NATO, none of this would have happened. And I’ll add if the Ukraine and Russia did not have large oil reserves and some other precious minerals, the United States would be a lot less interested in them. But that’s all in the past. Now, you and I can disagree with each other and we can disagree with what our governments do, but if we want to build a better world it has to happen through the cooperative efforts of citizens NOT governments because the latter just historically a lot less likely to happen. So I can’t see this move as at all productive towards ending this particular war or world peace in general, I see it as quite the opposite.
Wait, what?? Zelenskyy took office after being democratically elected in 2019. Russia invaded Ukraine and annexed the Crimea region of Ukraine in 2014. Your timeline does not check out there.
Zelensky took office on the promise of normalizing relations with Donbas and Russia, and then proceeded to do the opposite. Also, wonder what happened in 2014 that might’ve provoked a response from Russia there.
Also, wonder what happened in 2014 that might’ve provoked a response from Russia there.
Ukraine using its right to free association, to sign an agreement with the EU strengthening relations? Specifically including a further formalising of cooperation around Chernobyl (Euratom is independently a signatory), an issue entirely caused by Russia in the first place, who didn’t ever offer a similar level of cooperation? Is that what you’re referring too?
Nah, what I’m referring to is the violent coup by the far right that was openly supported by the west. Also, Russia never asked Ukraine to choose between economic association with Russia and Europe. It was western demand that Ukraine had to break economic ties with Russia. Maybe should get your facts straight so you can do more quality trolling.
@possiblylinux127@theunknownmuncher I know it might hurt your brain but it is helpful to fully understand an issue to understand the other sides perspectives.
Your perfective only make sense if we assume that Putin is retarded(what he propably is) because Ukraine couldn’t join NATO(Crimea) and now Finland is at NATO because that war, and Putin said that he don’t care that Finland is in NATO, I can only came to the conclusion that he didn’t care about NATO in Russia border, he just wanted to genocide ukranians, or die as the one who brought back Russia empire
@theunknownmuncher Your timeline doesn’t go back far enough and I notice you completely ignored the bit about Eastern expansion of NATO and what the United States promised Russia.
Seems to me that you’re the one justifying genocide of people of Donbas by the fascists that took power in a violent coup backed by the west. Even western media reported on the far right problem in Ukraine and the ethnic cleansing in Donbas before the war started.
@theunknownmuncher I don’t justify genocide, I acknowledge ALL conflicts involve at least two sides, and to punish only one of those sides is to take part in said genocide rather than oppose it.
no matter whether you think russia is justified in invading ukraine or not, if russians get banned from the kernel bc russia invaded ukraine, yankees have to get the boot as well
@bunitor That would be my take. My take is that as individuals we are were international cooperation needs to begin, it isn’t going to happen with our governments, at least it never has historically.
We had international cooperation but the world is splintering now. Might be some security concerns but also think some of it is America protecting its companies from China companies.
@yogthos@theunknownmuncher I am in the US and I realize this. There was a funny meme a while back about look how aggressive Russia is, they put their country all around our military bases. Unfortunately there is a lot of truth in that. What other country has military bases throughout the world?
Aside from the fact that it’s pretty insane to suggest to kick someone off a project for no reason other than their nationality (the article doesn’t say any of these maintainers supported the invasion or had any ties with the government), even if these people actively supported the government, as far as kernel development is concerned… I don’t really care? If their contributions are good then I want their patches to be merged. Tor was made by the US government, which I in no way condone, but I still use Tor.
I’m sure removing these maintainers would be of great help to the Ukrainian war effort…
More seriously: We need to help Ukraine more. But this doesn’t do that. It just hurts a bunch of people (both the maintainers, and the people using their code) for no benefit whatsoever.
100% agree with you! Like I said, I don’t think we can hold all Russian people directly responsible for the actions of their government.
I wish for an ideal world where politics could stay out of Linux, but this is extremely tricky and cannot be treated black and white. Labeling things as “political” and then crying to keep “politics” out of things is often used as a weapon for exclusion, for example by sexuality or race, and I think exclusion should be anathema for Linux and open source projects.
I think the general idea is to create as much drain on Russia as possible. Limit there ability to import and export good while creating brain drain and terrible moral.
How many Russians have defected at this point? Spoiler is a decent amount.
@lily33@theunknownmuncher The best way we can help Ukraine is by removing outside influences from both sides. What is being portrayed as a war in Ukraine is really a proxy war between Russia and the US that was egged on by the US. This is most unwise given that both nations are armed to the teeth with nukes. We really should be looking at ways to de-escalate not escalate this war.
Only problem being that Ukraine never had nukes. USSR had nukes that were stationed on the territory of Ukraine. When USSR dissolved, Russia became the successor state and inherited the nukes. This has never been in dispute.
Ehh they keep saying we are not involved we are not whatever. You can only say that so long. I mean the soldiers are coming from somewhere these are not people grown in vats.
It’s a little unclear what you mean, like because more than half a million Russian soldiers have already been killed so far and yet the war keeps going, that the people must be responsible for supporting?
Russia is conscripting, so most are not there by choice but required by law. If you draft dodge and get caught, you go to prison, and still just end up on the frontline anyway, since they are emptying their prisons to use as soldiers, too. And these people will be shot and killed by their own side if they attempt a retreat, while fed propaganda and misinformation about their treatment if they surrender. There has been significant human trafficking to support their war effort. They’ve also depended heavily on mercenary forces outside of their military in order to have skilled soldiers, and are now even receiving soldiers from North Korea in order to continue fighting.
Besides that, there are so many factors that go into why a person would decide to join the military and in reality, they are usually economic ones or from extensive propaganda.
This is a shame, I always thought Linux was supposed to be an International collaboration, hate to see it caught up in this bullshit political agenda.
I agree to this. I was literally just in the shower thinking how Linux, the space station, and the Olympics are the only times we as humans come together to collaborate
@secret300 The project to discover elements 119 and 120 which previously were a US/Russia collaboration also put on hold. All of humanity moves backwards when we fight, nothing is gained.
Banning CFCs went pretty well too
@JWBananas @secret300 Yea you know the funny thing about that, CFC’s are heavy and tend to sink to the ground if not propelled into the stratosphere by rockets, say like the old Space Shuttle with it’s solid chlorine oxidizer boosters, or the various military missiles which mostly have been converted to liquid hydrogen and oxygen engines. But nah we got to spend $3k to replace our A/C because it contains CFC’s that never would have made it up into the atmosphere anyway because of you know, physics, little things like gravity, so the military can avoid blame.
If that was how it worked then we would have all suffocated long ago under all the argon that sank to the bottom of the troposphere. The atmosphere is turbulent and extremely good at mixing gases of varying densities, and CFCs last decades before being decomposed or removed from the air.
You know that Russia wasn’t able to compete in the Olympics or Paralympics this year, right? The individual athletes weren’t banned however, but they had to compete under a neutral banner and weren’t in the parade of nations.
Edit: I should have added, was disgusted because Israel were allowed to compete. Huge double standard there.
@princessnorah @secret300 A shame people can’t be more civilized. Really I don’t think we’ve evolved all that much in spite of our technology.
If I recall correctly Russia is not allowed to participate because of their state doping program not because of their politics. So unless there was an Israel state doping program discovered that’s not double standard.
That’s a valid point to make, but it’s actually both. Russian athletes would have been able to compete under the IOC flag if it was just the doping scandal, from what I understand.
No it was code started by Linus that got huge.
Political agenda is a funny euphemism for imperialist invasion and genocide.
this is the genocide you must be referring to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHWHqj8g7Bk
Gee i’m glad israeli maintainers are being blocked as well.
I’m all for sanctioning them too. Economic sanctions are the bare minimum we should be doing to genocidal authoritarians.
I totally think them invading Ukraine is fucked up too but I also think the Israel situation is messed up too and would you be against someone maintaining code just because they are from Israel?
That would be wrong. Linux is supposed to be about more than political alignments its supposed to be a collaborative effort its always been about that.
This is wrong and its super wrong they don’t tell anyone what compliance they are following or who issued it to them which is also supposed to be against what open source is about.
@Midnight If Russia were the only one involved, and if weren’t provoked by outside powers like say, oh, the United States, yea I could agree with you but my knowledge of history precludes my accepting that explanation.
🥱
So many people forget that the Ukrainian Russian conflict never really ended, the idea that it was an unprovoked invasion is absurd, (and no, before someone decides to make a braindead comment, provoked does not mean justified.) There have been many leaked videos pre-invasion of violence towards both sides, and neither side made a proper effort to actually quell it, only surface level bullshit inorder to take the "moral ground:
Westerners usually don’t know any of that, because Western governments, NGOs, and corporate media erase all inconvenient context and history. I try to point folks toward developing real media literacy…
@davel @drwankingstein All of which have their biases and really a very limited subsample of viewpoints and history.
Holy shit I didn’t know admins in this place were full blown Russian lickers. I don’t know about you but I would gladly have my country join nato if that means not ending up like Georgia or now Ukraine twice.
Also congrats on getting Finland to finally join nato btw.
always hilarious to see nafoids show up here
Cool, maybe the US will blow up its new ally’s pipelines too someday. We are not a trustworthy ally.
Right??? They act like they are concerned about what events could have taken place to ensure that the invasion never happened. Guess what could have occurred that would have been the biggest guarantee that the invasion could never happen? Ukraine joining NATO prior to the invasion…
All NATO wanted to do was to use Ukraine as a tool to weaken Russia, and now NATO will discard Ukraine like a used condom. That’s the fate of all the vassals of the empire.
@yogthos @theunknownmuncher The controllers of said empire isn’t the elected government. How we can reign that back in, I don’t know.
@theunknownmuncher @Samueru Like Russia placing nukes in Cuba guaranteed we wouldn’t invade it?
The thing about not being willing to learn from history is that you are then destined to repeat the same mistakes.
@Samueru @davel Is there something about people from lemmy.ml that makes them only capable of insults as opposed to rational discussions?
What rational discussion is to be had when one country is clearly annexing another since 2014 lmao?
The US currently occupies a larger percentage of Syria than Russia is of Ukraine, but do go on.
@Samueru The history goes back way before 2014 and your summation of the situation is inaccurate.
removed
Or that’s what this would be on Lemmy.ml. They are all tankies and they get mad when you point out terrible things like facts.
I love how you dronies always project. The only ones who are mad are you lot. We just think you provide free entertainment like court jesters.
You really love your “them tankies” huh. Maybe you should start engaging with reality instead of this bullshit anticommunism you always do.
You are on the Russian instance my friend. I would strongly recommend finding a new home.
By Russian instance you mean one where people engage with reality that’s uncomfortable for the utterly brainwashed people like yourself?
What instance do you suggest?
reddit.com is the one for you
Pretty much any that isn’t Lemmy.ml, hexbear or lemmygrad. (And maybe beehaw.social as they have defederated from Lemmy.world)
Just look around and pick one.
NATO will continue expanding as more and more border countries don’t want to deal with limp dick Putin. Russia will be broken up to small territories and anything that remains of the federation will be scrapped and sold for salvage to finance rebuilding what has been lost.
Ta-ta!
That is what the US has wanted for the last 25 years, but it’s unlikely to happen. The Global North has very significantly de-industrialized itself, and its attempts at sanctions not only haven’t worked, but are having the effect of it isolating itself from the global majority. Russia has aligned with the Global South. Hence BRICS+ and the larger developing multipolar bloc that’s going its own way, ignoring the US’ “rules-based international order” sanctions, developing its own international balance of payments outside of US dollar hegemony, and working to get out from under the boot of the IMF’s & World Bank’s debt traps.
The neocolonial plunderers already tried that, and they even got away with under Yeltsin, but then Putin kicked them out, which is why they’re especially butthurt about him.
@CaptDust @davel When you need to resort to insults like this it’s a clear sign you’ve lost the argument.
Not always, but often 😂
You see the Russians are the real Nazis, not the Banderites who attacked Eastern Ukrainians for the decade before this war started.
@davel If the world were so simple then those with single digit IQ’s and no real knowledge of historical fact would be able to understand it, unfortunately it is not.
They’re not dumb; usually it’s that they live in the bubble of Western propaganda, while simultaneously believing that they haven’t been propagandized their whole lives.
People not only don’t know what’s happening to them, they don’t even know that they don’t know. — Noam Chomsky
And really, who even has the time and energy to know? It’s actually a lot of work, and we live under neoliberalism, where most of us are just trying to keep our heads above water. Plus, there’s no social or financial upside to bucking the hegemonic viewpoint.
@davel Everyone has their own perspective but I think most people here are trying to greatly over simply a complex situation with and Noam Chomsky offers only yet another perspective and I disagree with him on the issue of world government or extinction. I don’t think world government on a large scale, particularly the way it is now with no real citizenship representation, is particularly desirable.
We’re going a bit off in the weeds here 😂 but yes, Chomsky is what we Marxists call a “radical recuperator,” or a member of the “compatible left.” He’s done useful work, but ultimately he steers people back to the status quo.
Noam Chomsky and the Compatible Left: I, II, III, IV
the anti-Chomskÿng ☭
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@GammaGames They had other provocations such as what was happening to the Russian speaking people in Donbass, but the United States definitely sealed the deal.
Putin is a despot trying to make his mark on history. No amount of appeasement from the global West would have stopped him from ordering the invasion.
@YaBoyMax Sorry I’ve watched enough of his speeches that I can’t come away with the same. I know there are a lot of deep state types trying to paint him as such so that we can get on with their ww III depopulation agenda.
“propaganda”? Oh. You mean like Russia started a full blown unprovoked war with a peaceful nation? That “propaganda”?
Sucks others got caught in the crosshairs, but that’s just what happens when your authoritarian government launches unprovoked wars and gets sanctioned.
No matter how many times Western states and corporate media insist that it wasn’t provoked won’t change the fact that it was[1][2].
NATO Expansion: The argument that NATO’s eastward expansion “provoked” Russia is often linked to Gorbachev’s 1990 talks with Western leaders. However, this promise was tied to Germany’s unification, not a blanket prohibition on expansion. And importantly eastern european countries sought NATO membership because of their historical (and justified) fears of Russian imperialism (a dynamic Marxists should understand as nations seeking sovereignty free from external dominance.)
Western Involvement in Ukraine: The U.S. supporting a regime change in Ukraine in 2014 is thought to be imperialism. But ignores the agency of Ukrainians, who led the Maidan protests because of already existing deep dissatisfaction with Yanukovych’s corrupt, oligarchic regime and his pivot to Russia. Supporting popular uprisings against oligarchs should align with Marxist values even if “the West” has its own interests
The Role of Fascism in Ukraine: Yes, Ukraine has issues with far-right groups like so many countries but exaggerating their influence as a justification for invasion serves to divert attention from Russia’s own reactionary politics. Far-right elements in Ukraine do not define the country’s political landscape, nor do they justify imperial aggression from another state. Russia has its own history of fostering right-wing authoritarianism.
Minsk Agreements: While the West" and Ukraine could be criticized for their handling of the Minsk agreements, Russia also violated these accords by continuing support for the separatists. Both sides share blame for the failure of Minsk, but it doesn’t make Russia’s invasion justified. Ukrainians didn’t provoke a full-scale invasion; they were defending their sovereignty.
NATO as a “Defensive” Alliance: Criticism of NATO’s imperialistic behavior is fair its actions in places like Libya show it isn’t 100% defensive. But in this case, NATO’s expansion was driven by countries seeking security from a historically imperialist power. Ukraine wasn’t “provoking” Russia by wanting self-determination; it was trying to secure its future.
You’re trying to push this “Actuall, but Ukraine DID provoke” narrative by mixing in unverified, ideologically biased material with references that are legitimate, but isolated incidents. Like linking far-right activity to justify the war conveniently ignores Russia’s (I should probably say everyone’s) own far-right issues. Marxists should reject imperialism in all its forms, including Russia’s actions in Ukraine.
Mostly NATO, and by that I mean mostly the US. The Ukrainian state is in bed with and dependent on the US, so yes it was and is a participant.
The implication here is, the more biased, the less trustworthy/factual. This is false, and anyway, I don’t think you fully see the bias baked into the supposedly unbiased sources. And “unverified” I suspect means not blessed by Western states (which are run by the capitalist class[1][2]) or Western NGOs (which are funded by Western states and the capitalist class) or Western corporate media (which are owned by the capitalist class).
Liberals often view history that way, but historical materialists don’t.
Yes, Ukraine has ties with the U.S., but sovereign nations have the right to choose their alliances. Ukraine’s Western integration stems from its desire for self-determination, not just U.S. influence. Russia’s aggression isn’t justified merely because Ukraine sought NATO’s support.
Bias exists everywhere, but dismissing “Western” sources wholesale, while elevating openly ideological ones, doesn’t strengthen the argument. Marxist critique should apply equally to all capitalist states, including Russia, which operates under an oligarchic system that exploits its own people. 1 2
While far-right elements in Ukraine are real, they’re a small part of the picture. Reducing Ukraine to these groups oversimplifies the conflict. Most Ukrainians are fighting for sovereignty, not fascism.
Russia’s actions are imperialist too, and as a Marxist, you should critique imperialism wherever it emerges, not just from the West.
I hardly dismissed Western sources wholesale. Plenty of my links are to Western corporate & NGO sources.
I mean, you say that like the people of Ukraine chose that path, but they didn’t. The Ukrainian oligarchs did, specifically the oligarchs that aligned with the US for the 2014 coup. They decided to bet on that horse. But I think it’s a stretch to call that self-determination.
Yes, Russia is shitty as well, and no less an oligarchy than the US. And Ukraine has been shitty & famously corrupt for decades; that didn’t start with Poroshenko. Russia, if given its druthers, would be imperialist, but since it presently doesn’t, it presently isn’t. Putin tried to join NATO once, to join the imperialist club, but that was rejected, because the US wanted Russia Balkanized & plundered instead. Russia has figured out it’s better off allying with Global South countries than attempting imperialist adventures upon them. And this war has accelerated that allyship.
It’s true Ukraine has a history of oligarchic influence, but the 2014 Maidan protests were a massive, popular uprising. Ukrainians were fed up with Yanukovych’s corruption and his decision to abandon the EU agreement for closer ties with Russia. This wasn’t just oligarchs pulling strings; millions of Ukrainians demonstrated for a future that aligned with Europe, seeking more autonomy from Russia.
I would argue that Russia is acting imperialistically. The annexation of Crimea, the war in Donbas, and now the invasion of Ukraine are clear examples of Russia asserting control over its neighbors. Even if it’s not globally imperialist like the U.S., these actions align with a regional imperialism that Marxists should still oppose.
Ultimately, this isn’t about picking sides between oligarchies, but supporting the principle of self-determination for Ukraine, including resisting imperialist aggression from any direction.
The Maidan protests were partially organic and partially inorganic. Yes there were people genuinely unhappy with the administration who protested. People were angry about the corruption before Poroshenko, and they’re angry about corruption today. Many western Ukrainians, especially Banderite western Ukrainians, were not happy with the election of Poroshenko and the the turn toward closer ties to Russia that it implied. But they were not the majority. The majority elected Poroshenko.
When the US wants regime change, it doesn’t do it from a blank slate. It investigates the endemic tensions and leverages them, inflames them. The US has kept clandestine ties with fascist elements in western Ukraine since forever. They leveraged them, and presumably whichever oligarchs who wanted to join in, under cover of popular protest. The job of Western NGOs like the National Endowment for Democracy job is to facilitate coups. “A lot of what we do today was done covertly 25 years ago by the CIA.” — Allen Weinstein, co-founder of the NED. Western media’s job is to paint color revolutions as entirely organic.
Question: do you believe in the self-determination of Ukrainians?
Yes, the self-determination of the Ukrainian people, the western Ukrainians and the eastern Ukrainians both.
And I believe in the right of the Eastern Ukrainians to not be attacked by fascist western Ukrainian paramilitaries[1] with tacit & overt support from the Ukrainian government and the US.
And I believe in the Ukrainian state to not suppress regional languages.
And I believe in the Ukrainian state to not ban political parties.
Right, so how does the full scale, violent invasion by a foreign state help the self determination of both Ukrainian peoples?
It certainly is violent, as all invasions are, though it’s not a full scale invasion. Russia has not fully activated its military, and it has no intent on taking all of Ukraine. That would be a terrible idea, if for no other reason than the fact that
easternwestern Ukraine is very anti-Russian and has a lot of fascists who are virulently anti-Russian. It would be a terrible idea to try to permanently occupy it. In contrast, the annexation of Crimea was practically a cake walk, because most of the people of Crimea wanted to be annexed. And it seems it was for the best for them, because they didn’t suffer years of attacks by western Ukrainians like their neighbors to their north.Still, by international law the invasion was & is illegal, and it certainly is violent. After the 2014 coup, an anti-Russian government—blessed by Victoria Nuland (who had been on the ground handing out cookies for the coup)—was installed, eastern Ukraine declared its independence. This independence was not recognized the Ukrainian government of course. It was a very messy situation. Ukraine was in a state of civil war from the coup until the invasion. I don’t know what percentage of the people of eastern Ukraine welcomed the Russian invasion/liberation. 30%, 50%, 70%? I have no idea.
Unfortunately, as complicated as that all is, realpolitik can’t be ignored. For an analogy, consider the Cuban missile crisis (BTW we now know that the reason Russia & Cuba did that was because the US had secretly installed nuclear weapons in Turkey).
Imagine if Russia (or say China) were expanding its “defensive alliance” into south & central America, and making plans to expand it further, right up to the California–Texas border, which would likely lead to “defensive” nuclear weapons right on our back porch. Maybe they’re in talks with Canada as well, in an effort to “contain” the US. Realistically—regardless of what is internationally legal (which the US usually ignores anyway)—what would the US do?
The US has has been working a plan to break up Russia for the last thirty years. Ukraine is just a pawn to the US. This is the confrontation the US wanted, with the hopes of starting that Balkanization. It doesn’t give a rat’s ass about Ukrainians’ lives, never mind their self-determination. The US does this kind of thing all the time.
My question was: how does the violence of the invasion help the self determination of Ukrainian people?
I’ll be more explicit: why not simply acknowledge that the invasion is not only unlawful, but deeply immoral – and completely contradictory to the self determination of a people?
The self-determination of which Ukrainian people?
.
I doubt you actually know what real-life Ukrainians actually want, because I suspect your vision of the Ukrainian people may as well be from the Marvel Cinematic Universe. And I suspect your conceptualization of self-determination is equally undeveloped.
I think the reason you’re interested in the Ukrainian people’s self-determination is because our governments and corporate media have spend the last two years telling you to care. But not real-life people. These are unrealized, cartoon Ukrainian people, who all coincidentally want exactly the same thing that Zelensky says Ukraine wants. They want you to imagine that the “self-determination” that all these cartoon Ukrainians want is exactly the same thing that the extremely corrupt, undemocratic Ukrainian government wants.
When I say I care about the Ukrainian people’s self-determination, I’m talking about the real-life, flesh-and-blood working class people, not the Ukrainian state.
Absolutely, but that was intolerable to the US, which is why they coup’ed its government in 2014 and installed a puppet one.
Yes and the 33 million people whose lives have been uprooted by the invasion, are undoubtedly very happy Russia is ‘fixing’ this with violence.
Never ask a dronie how gullible they are, they’ll tell you.
And never ask why the US has over 800 external military bases, while all other countries combined have less than 20.
Does invading your neighbor count as international collaboration? Not that all Russian people can be held directly responsible for the actions of their government.
@theunknownmuncher The US has been involved in probably 300 regime changes throughout the world, has invaded many countries, including those that we were not affiliated with. Russia invades a neighboring country when we install a leader that is going to allow us to put missiles on their border. I really hate to see political hegemony get in the way of a good collaborative effort, we all suffer for it if we allow this.
Absolutely fair point. I agree with you on this portion of your comment.
@theunknownmuncher And I could give countless other examples of other countries. I don’t agree with the war, but I also know if we hadn’t installed Zelenskyy and if the United States had honored our promise to Russia not to extend NATO past East Germany, then it would not have happened. So I understand that it is hardly one sided on Russias part. If we didn’t fund Ukraine, if we didn’t offer them membership in NATO, none of this would have happened. And I’ll add if the Ukraine and Russia did not have large oil reserves and some other precious minerals, the United States would be a lot less interested in them. But that’s all in the past. Now, you and I can disagree with each other and we can disagree with what our governments do, but if we want to build a better world it has to happen through the cooperative efforts of citizens NOT governments because the latter just historically a lot less likely to happen. So I can’t see this move as at all productive towards ending this particular war or world peace in general, I see it as quite the opposite.
Wait, what?? Zelenskyy took office after being democratically elected in 2019. Russia invaded Ukraine and annexed the Crimea region of Ukraine in 2014. Your timeline does not check out there.
Zelensky took office on the promise of normalizing relations with Donbas and Russia, and then proceeded to do the opposite. Also, wonder what happened in 2014 that might’ve provoked a response from Russia there.
Ukraine using its right to free association, to sign an agreement with the EU strengthening relations? Specifically including a further formalising of cooperation around Chernobyl (Euratom is independently a signatory), an issue entirely caused by Russia in the first place, who didn’t ever offer a similar level of cooperation? Is that what you’re referring too?
Nah, what I’m referring to is the violent coup by the far right that was openly supported by the west. Also, Russia never asked Ukraine to choose between economic association with Russia and Europe. It was western demand that Ukraine had to break economic ties with Russia. Maybe should get your facts straight so you can do more quality trolling.
Its almost as if it is coming right out of the Russian media
@possiblylinux127 @theunknownmuncher I know it might hurt your brain but it is helpful to fully understand an issue to understand the other sides perspectives.
How dare you suggest critical thinking?!
Your perfective only make sense if we assume that Putin is retarded(what he propably is) because Ukraine couldn’t join NATO(Crimea) and now Finland is at NATO because that war, and Putin said that he don’t care that Finland is in NATO, I can only came to the conclusion that he didn’t care about NATO in Russia border, he just wanted to genocide ukranians, or die as the one who brought back Russia empire
@theunknownmuncher Your timeline doesn’t go back far enough and I notice you completely ignored the bit about Eastern expansion of NATO and what the United States promised Russia.
Your justification of genocide is both ludicrous and gross.
Seems to me that you’re the one justifying genocide of people of Donbas by the fascists that took power in a violent coup backed by the west. Even western media reported on the far right problem in Ukraine and the ethnic cleansing in Donbas before the war started.
@theunknownmuncher I don’t justify genocide, I acknowledge ALL conflicts involve at least two sides, and to punish only one of those sides is to take part in said genocide rather than oppose it.
So why did Russiactaje Crimera? Saying this wouldn’t have happened is BS. Russia I expected a quick and decisive victory.
there is simply no meaningful response to this
no matter whether you think russia is justified in invading ukraine or not, if russians get banned from the kernel bc russia invaded ukraine, yankees have to get the boot as well
You should read the article because this is not a thing that has occurred, at least not yet.
my understanding was that the kernel didn’t publicly state any specific reason, but “complying to sanctions” semms like a safe bet to me
in any case, whatever the reason, this removal is unfortunate and uncalled for
@bunitor I’d agree, but on this same basis with all the conflicts in the world you’d have to expand this to about 99% of the globe.
YUP
so… maybe nobody should be banned and it sucks that this happened?
@bunitor That would be my take. My take is that as individuals we are were international cooperation needs to begin, it isn’t going to happen with our governments, at least it never has historically.
We had international cooperation but the world is splintering now. Might be some security concerns but also think some of it is America protecting its companies from China companies.
You do realize that the US has invaded far more countries than Russia has, do burgerlanders have no self awareness at all?
@yogthos @theunknownmuncher I am in the US and I realize this. There was a funny meme a while back about look how aggressive Russia is, they put their country all around our military bases. Unfortunately there is a lot of truth in that. What other country has military bases throughout the world?
Russia literally invaded everyone around them. Look at all the former USSR counties.
The US has been involved in a lot of places but that’s not a justification for Russia attacking its neighborhood.
How to say you’re historically illiterate without saying so. Go read up on how USSR was formed clown.
27 million Soviets died liberating these people from the Nazis, and this is the thanks they get.
I hope this is sarcasm but the way this post is going I don’t know.
I assure you it is not sarcasm.
found the nazi
Does Russia invading Ukraine justify the US invading Iraq?
Though we are discussing individuals here, should we ban Americans in projects to maintain moral integrity?
BTW are you referring to historical (pre 1990) expansion as well? Because an American really shouldn’t want to go there.
So it’s ok if you’re invading non-neighbors… got it,
Aside from the fact that it’s pretty insane to suggest to kick someone off a project for no reason other than their nationality (the article doesn’t say any of these maintainers supported the invasion or had any ties with the government), even if these people actively supported the government, as far as kernel development is concerned… I don’t really care? If their contributions are good then I want their patches to be merged. Tor was made by the US government, which I in no way condone, but I still use Tor.
I’m sure removing these maintainers would be of great help to the Ukrainian war effort…
More seriously: We need to help Ukraine more. But this doesn’t do that. It just hurts a bunch of people (both the maintainers, and the people using their code) for no benefit whatsoever.
The biggest help the west could’ve done for Ukraine was to fuck off when the Istanbul negotiations were happening two months into the war.
100% agree with you! Like I said, I don’t think we can hold all Russian people directly responsible for the actions of their government.
I wish for an ideal world where politics could stay out of Linux, but this is extremely tricky and cannot be treated black and white. Labeling things as “political” and then crying to keep “politics” out of things is often used as a weapon for exclusion, for example by sexuality or race, and I think exclusion should be anathema for Linux and open source projects.
I think the general idea is to create as much drain on Russia as possible. Limit there ability to import and export good while creating brain drain and terrible moral.
How many Russians have defected at this point? Spoiler is a decent amount.
How’s that working you for y’all there?
oh and spoiler, welcome to the real world https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/russia-relocation-emigration-return-reasons/
@lily33 @theunknownmuncher The best way we can help Ukraine is by removing outside influences from both sides. What is being portrayed as a war in Ukraine is really a proxy war between Russia and the US that was egged on by the US. This is most unwise given that both nations are armed to the teeth with nukes. We really should be looking at ways to de-escalate not escalate this war.
De-escalation is easy: Russia can get the fuck out of Ukraine. All of it.
I love how libs are utterly incapable of engaging with reality thinking that if they just repeat this mantra enough times it’ll happen.
@remotelove Yea sure, let the US place missiles on their border. Not a rational option.
Well considering the US said they would defend Ukraine from Russia when Ukraine got rid of there nukes. Yah kind of hand tied with Russia invading.
Only problem being that Ukraine never had nukes. USSR had nukes that were stationed on the territory of Ukraine. When USSR dissolved, Russia became the successor state and inherited the nukes. This has never been in dispute.
Ehh they keep saying we are not involved we are not whatever. You can only say that so long. I mean the soldiers are coming from somewhere these are not people grown in vats.
It’s a little unclear what you mean, like because more than half a million Russian soldiers have already been killed so far and yet the war keeps going, that the people must be responsible for supporting?
Russia is conscripting, so most are not there by choice but required by law. If you draft dodge and get caught, you go to prison, and still just end up on the frontline anyway, since they are emptying their prisons to use as soldiers, too. And these people will be shot and killed by their own side if they attempt a retreat, while fed propaganda and misinformation about their treatment if they surrender. There has been significant human trafficking to support their war effort. They’ve also depended heavily on mercenary forces outside of their military in order to have skilled soldiers, and are now even receiving soldiers from North Korea in order to continue fighting.
Besides that, there are so many factors that go into why a person would decide to join the military and in reality, they are usually economic ones or from extensive propaganda.