Moderation conflict involving c/vegan - Lemmy.World
lemmy.world
## Intro We would like to address some of the points that have been raised by some of our users (and by one of our communities here on Lemmy.World) on /c/vegan regarding a recent post concerning vegan diets for cats. We understand that the vegan community here on Lemmy.World is rightfully upset with what has happened. In the following paragraphs we will do our best to respond to the major points that we’ve gleaned from the threads linked here. ## Links - https://lemmy.world/post/18829828 [https://lemmy.world/post/18829828] - https://lemmy.world/post/18817262 [https://lemmy.world/post/18817262] ## Actions in question ### Admin removing comments discussing vegan cat food in a community they did not moderate. The comments have been restored. The comments were removed for violating our instance rule against animal abuse (https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/#11-attacks-on-users [https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/#11-attacks-on-users]). Rooki is a cat owner himself and he was convinced that it was scientific consensus that cats cannot survive on a vegan diet. This originally justified the removal. Even if one of our admins does not agree with what is posted, unless the content violates instance rules it should not be removed. This was the original justification for action. ### Removing some moderators of the vegan community Removed moderators have been reinstated. This was in the first place a failure of communication. It should have been clearly communicated towards the moderators why a certain action was taken (instance rules) and that the reversal of that action would not be considered (during the original incident). The correct way forward in this case would have been an appeal to the admin team, which would have been handled by someone other than the admin initially acting on this. We generally discuss high impact actions among team before acting on them. This should especially be the case when there is no strong urgency on the act performed. Since this was only a moderator removal and not a ban, this should have been discussed among the team prior to action. Going forward we have agreed, as a team, to discuss such actions first, to help prevent future conflict ### Posting their own opposing comment and elevating its visibility Moderators’ and admins’ comments are flagged with flare, which is okay and by design on Lemmy. But their comments are not forced above the comments of other users for the purpose of arguing a point. These comments were not elevated to appear before any other users comments. In addition, Rooki has since revised his comments to be more subjective and less reactive. ## Community Responses ### The removed comments presented balanced views on vegan cat food, citing scientific research supporting its feasibility if done properly. Presenting scientifically backed peer reviewed studies is 100% allowed, and encouraged. While we understand anyone can cherry pick studies, if a individual can find a large amount of evidence for their case, then by all accounts they are (in theory) technically correct. That being said, using facts to bully others is not in good faith either. For example flooding threads with JSTOR links. ### The topic is controversial but not clearly prohibited by site rules. That is correct, at the time there was no violation of site wide rules. ### Rooki’s actions appear to prioritize his personal disagreement over following established moderation guidelines. > Please see the above regarding addressing moderator policy. ## Conclusions ### Regarding moderator actions We will not be removing Rooki from his position as moderator, as we believe that this is a disproportionate response for a heat-of-the-moment response. Everybody makes mistakes, and while we do try and hold the site admin staff to a higher standard, calling for folks resignation from volunteer positions over it would not fair to them. Rooki has given up 100’s of hours of his free time to help both Lemmy.World, FHF and the Fediverse as a whole grown in far reaching ways. You don’t immediately fire your staff when they make a bad judgment call. While we understand that this may not be good enough for some users, we hope that they can be understanding that everyone, no matter the position, can make mistakes. Generally, in the event of an admin action that is deemed unfair or overstepping, everyone can raise this with our admin team for an appeal/review. We recommend sending a direct message to @lwadmin@lemmy.world [https://lemmy.world/u/lwadmin] or an email to support@lemmy.world. We’ve also added a new by-laws section detailing the course of action users should ideally take, when conflict arises. In the event that a user needs to go above the admin team, we’ve provided a secure link to the operations team (who the admin’s report to, ultimately). See https://legal.lemmy.world/bylaws/#12-site-admin-issues-for-community-moderators [https://legal.lemmy.world/bylaws/#12-site-admin-issues-for-community-moderators] for details. ## Regarding censorship claims Regarding the alleged censorship, comments were removed without a proper reason. This was out of line, and we will do our best to make sure that this does not happen again. We have updated our legal policy to reflect the new rules in place that bind both our user AND our moderation staff regarding removing comments and content. We WANT users to hold us accountable to the rules we’ve ALL agreed to follow, going forward. If members of the community find any of the rules we’ve set forth unreasonable, we promise to listen and adjust these rules where we can. Our terms of service is very much a living document, as any proper binding governing document should be. Controversial topics can and should be discussed, as long as they are not causing risk of imminent physical harm. We are firm believers in the hippocratic oath of “do no harm”. We encourage users to also list pros and cons regarding controversial viewpoints to foster better discussion. Listing the cons of your viewpoint does not mean you are wrong or at fault, just that you are able to look at the issue from another perspective and aware of potential points of criticism. While we want to allow our users to express themselves on our platform, we also do not want users to spread mis-information that risks causing direct physical harm to another individual, origination or property owned by the before mentioned. To echo the previous statement “do no harm”. To this end, we have updated our legal page to make this more clear. We already have provisions for attacking groups, threatening individuals and animal harm, this is a logical extension of this to both protect our users and to protect our staff from legal recourse and make it more clear to everyone. We feel this is a very reasonable compromise, and take these additional very seriously. See Section 8 Misinformation [https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/#80-misinformation] Sincerely, FHF / LemmyWorld Operations Team

Get popcorn ready as they investigated themselves and found all that was needed was rule updates.

We taking bets on if future issues like this will be relegated to dms rather than public posts?

    • comrade_pibb [comrade/them]English
      12•2 months ago

      i was always under the impression that this wasn’t good for cats, but then again i haven’t done any research in like 20 years

      • Angel [any]English
        24•2 months ago

        The matter of pets on plant-based diets reminds me of the exact energy that the matter of trans women in women’s sports has.

        Opposition to it is often seen as “basic common sense” on the surface level by people who have not a single idea about the intricacies of the subject, and those who are actually willing to make a case for why such a hasty dismissal isn’t as valid as others think it is get scolded and demonized simply for speaking objective, factual claims on the matter.

        Cats can survive and thrive on plant-based diets, yes. No animal necessarily needs certain ingredients (such as flesh or plants) more than they need certain nutrients*. Cats need taurine, and humans can include that in plant-based cat food. I wouldn’t say that the case in favor of plant-based cats is 100% conclusive, but it sure as hell is leagues more on the “in favor of it” side than what most people vehemently opposed to it are thinking that makes them rebuke positive takes on the matter without question or any degree of openness.

        To defend such opposition, people will often say “Cats are obligate carnivores!” without knowing exactly what that means. “Obligate carnivore” is a term in ecology referring to animals that must eat other animals out of survival/nutrition or being unable to digest plants. Domesticated cats who live with human beings and are being fed to them manmade food constructed by the power of human technology don’t have this dilemma going on.

        It’s often immediately painted as “animal abuse,” but that’s because such a narrative is pushed so hard in a “It’s not up for discussion, and we don’t need to hear an alternative take on this matter” type of sense.

        *Source

        Although special attention must be paid to ensure adequate levels of certain nutrients such as proteins, amino acids (e.g., taurine, carnitine, methionine, lysine, and tryptophan), vitamins (e.g., Vitamins A, B3, B9, and B12), minerals (e.g., calcium, iron, zinc, and copper), and certain fats [25], it is important to remember that dogs, cats—and indeed all species—require specific nutrients, rather than specific ingredients. There is—at least in theory—no reason why diets comprised entirely of plants, minerals, and synthetically-based ingredients (i.e., vegan diets) cannot meet the necessary palatability, bioavailability, and nutritional requirements of cats and dogs [25]. Indeed, a growing number of commercially-available diets [26] aim to do so.

        • comrade_pibb [comrade/them]English
          13•2 months ago

          Yeah, that makes more sense than just digging in and dying on some biological essentialism hill. For me it’s just a matter of never really considering it

      • @goferking0OPEnglish
        9•2 months ago

        Same but makes sense if it’s just extra vitamins added.

        Can’t say if the cats would enjoy eating it

        • Pili [any, any]English
          10•2 months ago

          Eh, my cat has never enjoyed eating her regular cat food unless I add nooch to it.

          So I would just add nooch to her vegan kibbles and I’m sure she’ll enjoy them.

        • fox [comrade/them]English
          9•2 months ago

          Hard to argue that dry kibble is anything like murdering a bird sadistically and slowly for fun and eating a third of it before using the rest as a toy, but mine seem to enjoy kibble just fine so it’s probably a moot point if the food is as enjoyable