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Slavery is not a necessity. Dealing with people too dangerous to participate in society is a necessity.
There are such people in governments, even of the most recent superpower on the earth.
Okay, so hypothetically you’re presented with a person too dangerous to participate in society. What are you going to do at the time, call the police and wait 40 minutes?
You can already reduce many incidents from happening in the first place by fixing the material and sociological causes.
You and your community look-out for and defend each other at the time, rather than hoping an officer will come and do so after the fact. How to deal with the person is contextual and up to the communities consensus. I personally would say redeem those you can, kill those you can’t.
How to deal with the person is contextual and up to the communities consensus
Lynchings. What you are describing are lynchings.
I personally would say redeem those you can, kill those you can’t.
So you need somewhere to “redeem” these people. That is called a prison or a mental institution. You need people to capture and hold these people to be redeemed. Those are called police. You need a system to determine who can’t be redeemed in a way that is fair and thorough. That is called a justice system. The irredeemable are killed in things called executions.
I agree the system we have is bad, but solutions rapidly turn into reinventing the wheel.
No, it’s not and you’re attempt to frame it using negative connotations is obvious. What you are actually trying to say is vigilante justice or extrajudicial killing. But without law, it could also not be as such. You can host a communal tribunal and provide a verdict based on the overall consensus of the community.
Also you can keep people at home, you don’t have to house them in purpose built facilities, there isn’t that much crime once you remove material conditions. It’s not a full time industry. And if they’re not an active danger you can let them go out freely and rehabilitate them without confining them. Likewise you do not need police when the community is in charge of its defence.
That’s basically the model they use in the Zapatista Chiapas. Seriously this isn’t complicated but you are incapable of imagining any system beyond the one you know, even when such systems are literally being applied in the real world and with greater effect than the police/prison model.
Before abolishing the police you need to have an idea of what is going to replace it.
This post offers no ideas.
I also wonder if they mean, abolish the current police force, or the concept of a police force.
I can understand the former, but the latter makes no sense to me.
I think if you follow the cotton gin metaphor, they want robots to do it.
No thanks to that.
Before abolishing slavery you need to have an idea of what is going to replace it.
This post offers no ideas.
I also wonder if they mean, abolish the current slavers, or the concept of slavery.
I can understand the former, but the latter makes no sense to me.
This is a really dumb response. The replacement for slavery is the same work just paid and without ownership of the workers.
The police are already paid, and they do things that are genuinely neccesary like crisis intervention and investigating legitimate crimes (not busting pot dealers and ticket quotas), they just do a bunch of evil and corrupt shit on top of it (and usually do a shitty job of the neccesary things as well). There does need to be something to replace those roles.
To be fair, OP’s post is also a really shitty analogy because of those reasons as well.
this is a really dumb response to the response; replacing the police with proper responses have proven themselves to be significantly more cost effect and non-violent.
Slavery isn’t just unpaid labor, it also involves social control, and violent enforcement. “I can’t imagine society without X unless you give me a detailed replacement” is a lame way of defending the status quo. Slavery, feudalism, child labor, debtors prisons all had the same argument made for them and they skip over the question of whether the current form is legitimate or inevitable.
This was exactly what I wanted to say! Thank you!
Explain to me how ending slavery would have lead to a shooter being allowed to run rampant or a domestic abuser the ability to continue hitting their spouse?
Of course it wouldn’t, because these are different issues.
Obviously the police system needs to be gutted, but they do serve a function that must be replaced. Unfortunately until people stop hurting others we need someone available to stop that violence.
And before you say it I’m not saying the police are doing a great job at that. In its current state they typically escalate the violence, or provide ineffective responses. But they do serve a role hat needs to be replaced.
When slavery was ended truthfully the roles of slaves did not need to be replaced. Slavery was a tool of the wealthiest in the South to make more money. Nothing more. Taking the wealth from the wealthy is generally better for the average person. This is also ignoring the huge moral arguments here. Slavery only has the function of making the rich richer.
Police departments and sheriff’s departments do serve a purpose in society. They take on jobs that do need to be done. They are not the best way to do it, but many of their functions still need to occur, or at least until there are more systems in place. You’re not going to end policing and fix society’s issues in years. This would take decades
Explain to me how ending slavery would have lead to a shooter being allowed to run rampant or a domestic abuser the ability to continue hitting their spouse? Of course it wouldn’t, because these are different issues.
Not sure I get what your point is especially since I agree, so what’s that about? Do note that slavery was defended both on economic grounds and through “public safety” arguments: fears of chaos, crime, and violence if it were abolished. “Slavery only has the function of making the rich richer.” is blatantly false and honestly insulting to descendants of slaves, as it downplays the systemic permanent violent domination by a group of people onto another. [1] [2]
My comment addresses the rhetoric of “This function exists, therefore this institution is inevitable unless you provide a fully specified replacement” which is a historically common way of defending entrenched systems [3]. Abolitionists distinguish functions from institutions. Conflict resolution, harm prevention, crisis response are necessary in society, but that does not make any particular institution such as the police natural or inevitable. [4] [5]
“this would take decades” is part of the abolitionist position, it’s a long-term transition project, just like phasing our nuclear power, nobody is claiming it needs to happen overnight [6]. So yeah violence exists and ways to address this must exist but none of that should be used to sidestep the question of abolishing the police. If anything, it just shows a lack of imagination for alternatives.
Edit: there’s tons of other analogies to address your point, honestly, “Abolish Capitalism” doesn’t mean get rid of the economic system and figure it out tomorrow morning, you’re probably just hung up onto the specific set of words without trying to understand the position and strategy of abolitionists. [7]
Slavery only has the function of making the rich richer." is blatantly false and honestly insulting to descendants of slaves, as it downplays the systemic permanent violent domination by a group of people onto another.
We don’t need to have the argument that slavery is wrong and causes generational trauma. That is plainly obvious, and honestly annoying that you felt the need to state that. Your goal seems more about using the existence of slavery to fuel your rhetoric than to address modern issues.
Once again, slavery and policing occupy two different “functions” (do not take this word literally) in society. There are necessary things that need to happen that a police force does. Slavery was never necessary and serves to generate wealth through human suffering. Arguably there are functions of the modern police system that do that too, and those can be stripped without replacement.
You keep trying to force a comparison between two things that cannot be compared.
Honestly it’s disgusting and insulting to even try to compare these two topics.
It does not take decades to free people. It does take decades of continual investment to lift people from poverty, provide mental healthcare (really all healthcare), building rehabilitation programs, etc. It all takes time and we should absolute do it. We seem to agree there so I don’t understand the disagreement. It truly seems to be you wanting to exploit the suffering of the enslaved to make your analogy
Also to be clear I am aware of modern day slavery attached to the current system. It is abhorrent and arguably evolved from the slavery practiced in the 1800s. That can absolutely be abolished tomorrow. It is not necessary and serves nothing more to generate wealth. No need to taper anything down or put any work into a new system. Get rid of it. Although, I am still uncomfortable of comparing it to the horrors of chattel slavery in the Southern United States. Slavery has existed in some form since writing was invented, and likely longer, but I can only think of maybe one or two systems equally as cruel and brutal as the system of slavery practiced in the Americas.
Edit: I think I thought of the best way to sum up my feelings. Slavery is cruel and serves no purpose in a society. It is abhorrent and should be abolished immediately. Then you work to right the wrongs.
Policing is fundamentally flawed, but a systematic approach can over time be used to incrementally replace it. Coupled with systems to eliminate the root causes of crime.
I think that’s why your comparison upset me so much. I view one as something with no redeeming qualities or usefulness and find it morally repugnant. The other has some utility to society, but I find the current system repugnant. Only one of these is appropriate to slowly replace in a controlled manner. The other must be ended immediately
It truly seems to be you wanting to exploit the suffering of the enslaved to make your analogy
Yeah at this point I think we’re beyond argumentation if you’re just gonna resort to moral vetoing. You’re reading it as moral comparison, and then getting upset about a claim I’m not making.
Historians and abolitionists make these structural comparisons to critique the recurring argumentation used to keep powers in place, that does not make it a moral equivalence. And in turn I’m arguing against the recurring argumentation that an institution is necessary by definition. This is what my first comment was about : when you change just a few words in stoy’s comment, you highlight the systemic argumentation to keep the status quo.
Honestly it’s disgusting and insulting to even try to compare these two topics.
Yet many studied the origins of modern day police in relation to slave patrols in the US.
- https://nleomf.org/slave-patrols-an-early-form-of-american-policing/
- https://naacp.org/find-resources/history-explained/origins-modern-day-policing
- https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/07/20/the-invention-of-the-police
There are necessary things that need to happen that a police force does
I agree that conflict response, harm prevention, and crisis intervention are necessary. That does not logically mean that the police institution as it exists is necessary or inevitable. The necessity of function does not mean the necessity of the existence of whatever institution is appointed to that function. I’m just arguing against it, I feel like I keep repeating myself so let’s leave it at that.
you’re just gonna resort to moral vetoing
That’s where you started
Yet many studied the origins of modern day police in relation to slave patrols in the US.
I don’t even disagree, but that doesn’t mean much once again. The invention cotton gin revived slavery in the South. Yet we still use the tool today without slavery.
Anyway that’s why I favor completely gutting or even abolishing police. They are fundamentally flawed. I don’t care if at the end of the day we have something still called the police, just as long as we change how its used for the benefit of society. Unlikely slavery though, I don’t see an overnight dissolution of the police as necessary.
I agree that conflict response, harm prevention, and crisis intervention are necessary. That does not logically mean that the police institution as it exists is necessary or inevitable. The necessity of function does not mean the necessity of the existence of whatever institution is appointed to that function. I’m just arguing against it, I feel like I keep repeating myself so let’s leave it at that.
This is what I’ve been saying.
Also if you decide to move forward you don’t need to cite facts, or even cite them 3 deep. It’s unnecessary. Everything you’ve cited is objectively true and I have never had a disagreement with. At least save yourself some time and only cite it 1 source deep.
Yeah I mean we keep arguing on some semantics when we agree on the structural issues at play, we could have saved some time and headache haha
How about…idk instead of shooting and killing the symptoms, you could handle the root cause, police forces don’t stop crime, they respond to it, majority of the crime in the world would have been solved with good mental health services and quality of life
I mean, they are a crime deterrent at least.
if that is true, how is there still crime?
Well it’s just a deterrent, not magic
i dont believe there is any way to prove crime was deterred.
What basis do you believe this? It’s measured all the time with various methods of policing being demonstrated to both deter and not deter crimes.
You can’t reductively bark “can’t prove a counterfactual 🤪” and you’ve seemingly done zero research into the matter
this only shows correlation, not causation
Well if you ever ask someone, “would you ever commit a crime iff you knew you could get away with it” and they say yes, you’ll have found at least one example of a successfully deterred crime.
no, you didn’t. you can’t prove a counterfactual.
Sure, but that takes time and isn’t fool proof. Full implementation of a program like that could take a decade. You need someone ready to respond to violent individuals.
Police forces also currently handle other things that are necessary like traffic enforcement or serving court documents. Both need to happen, neither need to be done by the police. So you have to replace that function.
Ideally you’d see many of these functions that require limited abilities to detain an individual shifted out of the police to new bodies. From there gut departments and form small bodies designed to apprehend violent criminals. Coupled with several programs aimed at actually reducing the root causes of crime.
It would take decades and a tremendous investment. Unfortunately too many people view nations as buisnesses now, so if things aren’t better immediately then they give up and reverse course.
Okay I’ll offer up the alternative.
Show any social worker or mental health professional a violent police interaction and in 90% of cases they will just shake their heads. They deal with the same shit every day and successfully manage many of the same situations without shooting anyone. The police universally try to respond as aggressively and counter productively as they can and it turns mental health crises into violence. Like yeah, there are situations where armed response is needed but so many of the common situations don’t require someone pointing guns at people. Go watch a random badge cam video and ask yourself, could a competent mental health worker resolve this? Food for thought, people frequently react in extreme ways to the police because they know how violent and unjust the situation will become with them involved.
For prison at a minimum just stop with the drug war shit. Stop sending people to jail for parking fines and weed and getting them wrapped up in the system so they lose their jobs. An ideal standard could, again, involve mental health treatment, counseling, and rehabilitation. If someone’s arrested for stealing shit, maybe they need to be put in a safe environment where they can learn skills, get a job and contribute to society. If they’re too dangerous, they need to be in a facility where they’re getting actual help and treatment until they aren’t dangerous if that day ever comes.
You may be thinking that this stuff is just vaguely cops and jails by some other name and at a hyper superficial level that may be in part, but the meat grinder we’ve built is definitely not the above in any stretch of the imagination.
There are even more extreme versions like the restorative (not just rehabilitative) justice systems built by the Zapatistas, I encourage people to seek out alternative proposals, there’s a whole world of ideas out there.
I’ll give UK police some credit here.
They very capable and willing to take a minimum force approach to defuse a situation, to talk and calm things, rather than escalate violence.
I know they don’t always get it right, there’s always that 10% that’s out of control.
Generally speaking, they’re policing by consent, not force
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Abolish the police and replace them with this other thing that’s totally not just a better version of the police
A better version of the police would still be better.
Right. But the OOP is quite clear that replacing them with something better is not enough.
They’re letting perfect be the enemy of good. Which is a shame, because then nothing changes :-(
Yes, which is one reason so many of us are disagreeing with OOP.
So you’re the person the meme is referring to. Brave of you to admit it
It’s very easy to imagine a perfect society without police. Unfortunately we don’t live in imagination land
Exactly, as long as people keep hurting others you need someone to deal with that.
A lot of things we use police or sheriffs for can be transferred to entities that aren’t allowed to arrest or brutalize people. Evictions shouldn’t be served by a man with a gun. A speeding ticket shouldn’t either.
But when someone is committing an armed robbery or attacking another person we need someone to respond with force, but they need to be actually trained in de-escalation.
This would likely need to be paired with massive programs designed to improve society and reduce crimes.
America is a land of guns and violence and that probably can’t change. police and conservative society understand things stereotypically because it’s also sometimes true
Serving an eviction notice can get you shot when random people own guns and crime is normal
A car speeding could be armed dudes with drugs or something and they’ll kill you in the middle of an empty highway in Colorado or wherever
Dangerous violent assholes with guns have mental health episodes too 🤷♀️
I hear you, but if people know that someone giving them a speeding ticket will not be arresting or shooting them wouldn’t it serve them better to not pull guns and lead to anything more? Criminals today attack officers during a traffic stop because the officers are trained to fish for an arrest.
That’s not the sole reason criminals attack officers and there’s no reason to think you’d be safe
Why would it serve them better? They can just shoot you and drive away and it’s hundreds of miles to the nearer station
Hey man, agreed the current police force is bad, sure, but how about an alternative being the leading narrative? A good platform offers solutions as the primary policies rather than soapboxing to the choir.
An alternative is local communities be in charge of this themselves. The money spent on policing could be better used to build up services to avoid crime originating, for mental health services, for armed community defense, etc. Local communities don’t need to buy sonic weapons, apcs, and fit out riot squds.
As it stands police do very little to prevent crime, and rarely bother to solve a crime after it has been reported. What they do, do is a ridiculous amount of abuse towards innocent people.
We cannot get to that stage without first removing the barrier that is public perception that police prevent crime and keep us safe. Getting rid of them will allow organic means of defending a community to grow. The Black Panther are an excellent historic contemporary example of this in the media today, but they have to operate in constant opposition to the police which hinders them greatly.
Likewise we can see community defense in action in Rovaja and Zapatista’s - but that’s much harder to put into a meme compared to ‘police bad’ which most people understand.
Yeah, I’m at least personally aware of alternatives, but I’m more commenting on the particular messaging of having the primary focus be on negating action. While it certainly is correct in stating the problem is the police as it exists along with the way the justice systems operates, my problem with the message isn’t “everyone knows, bro” or even the silly “it isn’t nuanced enough, bro”, but more along the lines of "the solution should be baked into the message ". Sure, the message could be police bad, acab, defend the police, etc, but even if we get everyone to hear and accept that message, how can they just not continue to feel helpless when no primary solution is proposed. Agreed there are plenty of solutions out there, but if the primary messaging out there is to say it’s bad, all those solutions are the priority. When everything is a priority, nothing is. I think this is the primary problem in leftist spaces that really muddies the waters as to what we want to do and why things implode under the sheer weight of numerous issues to solve.
A simple solution is to lead with the solution. Community policing is pretty easy to package well to make it fairly bipartisan. If you lead with community policing, you’re already giving an actionable step that helps people see an actual goal that solves an actual problem. The problem of police brutality is secondary in the messaging because that’s the problem we’re trying to solve. When providing the solution as the platform, the problem is apparent, and even highlighted. All the “nuance” is already practically implied. So yes, public perception is important in approaching these issues, but it’s inadequate with out a solution. You can get into the whole debate about why police as they exist is bad, or you could demonstrate the problem by showing why whatever proposed solution you have is a better option.
local communities be in charge of this themselves
You think that’s gonna be a reliably good model? To me that sounds like another hellscape waiting to happen.
Agreed. Pretty sure Texas would implement the purge.
Here’s a good introductory video about alternatives.
We used to have the police also run the ambulances, poorly. Folks stepped up and did it better, which is why we have EMT’s today.
No, it’s not.
