- cross-posted to:
- communism@lemmygrad.ml
- memes@lemmygrad.ml
- cross-posted to:
- communism@lemmygrad.ml
- memes@lemmygrad.ml
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Okay that’s cool and all but an estimated 3-10 million people still died during the Holodomor.
Reading the supporting data behind the video all he’s refuting is that it was a conscious genocide. But I don’t think most think of the period as genocide, more as a failure of the economic system. Of planned economy. Much in the same way as the famine under Mao Zedong in China.
From one of the research papers linked in the video
"[…] indicate that the famine was real, the result of a failure of economic policy, of the “revolution from above” "
That excerpt is part of the closing statements.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274856099_The_1932_Harvest_and_the_Famine_of_1933
I really can’t understand the fascination with Soviet and early communist China. I have very little issue with socialism and Marx & Engels had a lot of interesting ideas but to go from there to idolizing Soviet and China is to me baffling. Cuba I can sort of understand at least.
It’s not a fascination, it’s that these famines are used as cheap “gotcha” arguments against socialism without any regard to the context surrounding them.
Mistakes were absolutely made during both examples and people died because of those mistakes. At the same time, both serve as examples of how planned economies DO work once taken in a larger context. Yes, both societies had a famine and it was terrible. That’s not the end of the story, though. If we are talking about these famines in regards to which is superior, socialism or capitalism, there are other questions to consider.
How many famines did each country have after these examples? How frequently had similar famines been occurring prior to the reorganization into a socialist system? Was this solely the result of mismanagement by the socialist governments or did the conditions created by the systems in place before the revolutions contribute to the famines? Did similar famines occur elsewhere in countries organized around capitalist systems near the same time? Why is there so much focus on the (unintentional) famines that occurred early in socialist countries when far less focus is put on (intentional) famines that occurred in capitalist/colonized countries? Are we giving socialism fair consideration in this discourse?
This rabbit hole goes plenty deeper. The frustration is not originating from the attack on societies that people are fascinated with, but that these are used as bad faith attacks that are taken out of context. They put socialism on a false pedestal and then kick the legs out from under them.
As for Cuba, I can’t think of a better example of socialism being a viable system after all their people have had to suffer through. There hasn’t been a single day since long before the Cuban revolution that the US has given the people of Cuba a fair chance to live a prosperous and peaceful life. Despite the relentless pressure to fail, they persevere and in many ways thrive.
Of course it’s a Lemmygrad account spouting this nonsense.
Wow, fully believing the CIA. Great move. Real top notch stuff.
When the CIA says something they believe “guys it’s an official document from the government, it’s irrefutable!”
When the CIA says something they don’t like “wow that’s so cute, you actually swallow western propoganda? Open your eyes sheeple!”
I mean it’s something that was declassified 50 years after it mattered. It’s not contemporary public messaging but private classified information withheld during the time it was most relevant.
I mean, they’re not exactly redeeming Stalin, are they? Just pointing out he wasn’t quite as bad as we think.
Can you reply to me with the link to the document please? Typing it out manually is a bit of a chore, especially on mobile
Here is the link: https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80-00810A006000360009-0.pdf
Thanks
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This is not politicalmemes.
- There will not be a dramatic purge inasmuch the MVD has already been cleaned up
I think the memo put in doubt the dictator part, not the brutal part of Stalin.
What’s so brutal about him exactly?
The purges weren’t just stalin going around shooting his opposition, they were a series of anti-corruption trials aimed at removing revisionists in power who were intent on seeing a return of capitalism. It was only in the worst cases, people who had deliberately committed espionage or sabotage, who were sentenced to death. Everyone else however, was largely either just barred from political life, or sent to jail, or not prosecuted at all as they hadn’t done anything yet.
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