But you should care. It’s no use simply feeling good about yourself for recognizing the bullshit if most people are still trapped in that narrative. If you want things to change you need to find a way to help others to also stop believing that bullshit. Because real change is made by the masses, not singular enlightened individuals.
I agree, and I’d add that there is a material aspect to the equation as well. As the standard of living continues to decline due to neoliberal policies, people in the mainstream start having a crisis of faith and they become more open to alternative interpretations of reality. It’s important to pick your battles and focus on educating people who have already started developing doubts on their own. People who are still living in liberal wonderland will not be swayed by any argument, and you’d almost certainly will just be wasting your time.
You’re right. I do and should care. Thinking it over, I didn’t quite have a right understanding of my own opinion. Trying again:
I do care about the consequences of many people believing bullshit. And we can see this happening with American and Russian influence of disinformation around the world right now. And a lot of people are hurt because of it.
As for the validity of the bullshit, that’s where I don’t care how many people believe it.
Please, these lies about Russian “disinformation” are tired and overdone. At least come up with a new ridiculous narrative that is at least novel if you want to spread lies.
Lies? I just follow the news. But feel free to debunk a few for me. I wouldn’t really know where to start. A recent issue claimed to be Russian disinformation was that Ukraine started the war. Is that true?
Dang, someone feels attacked by a different perspective. Just don’t listen, and let me learn about these ideas. With how much of a mess news sources are nowadays I appreciate learning about how others view things ever more. I want to know what’s going on
If you are trying to “learn” about these ideas you shouldn’t be offering a different perspective but in fact learning. The two are in opposition to one another. Hmm wonder why a communist isn’t entertaining propaganda on a communist website? Hmmmm wonder why?
I can’t really hide my perspective to have it challenged. Someone linked an article from a place that’s new to me though. It does present a different bit of the picture of recent events
First let me say that i’m sorry that some of the answers you received have been a little snippy and lacking in patience. If you really are trying to learn, that is commendable. I don’t think it’s right getting angry at someone for not knowing better if they are really making an honest effort to inform themselves.
That being said, before you opine further on this topic i think you should take some time to thoroughly try and understand the facts that your mainstream media hides from you. This post is a good place to start. Read the answers which some of us have provided there which explain, with verifiable sources, the root causes of the conflict.
Then take a look at this other post which goes further into one of the main causes of this conflict which is almost entirely ignored by the mainstream media. Read through the articles which are linked in the comments in response to the poster’s question. Keep in mind that the mainstream media has been and continues to blatantly lie about all of this.
There’s an awful lot behind those disagreements, but significant violence only started in the spring of 2014:
April 12, 2014: Coup government in Kiev launches war against anti-coup, pro-democracy separatists in Donbass. Openly neo-Nazi Azov Battalion plays a key role in the fighting for Kiev. Wagner forces arrive to support Donbass militias. U.S. again exaggerates this as a Russian “invasion” of Ukraine. “You just don’t in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped up pre-text,” says U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry, who voted as a senator in favor of the U.S. invasion of Iraq in 2003 on a completely trumped up pre-text.
May 2, 2014: Dozens of ethnic Russian protestors are burnt alive in a building in Odessa by neo-Nazi thugs. Eight days later, Luhansk and Donetsk declare independence and vote to leave Ukraine.
Russia twice agrees to try and resolve the violence on its border (and the larger NATO expansion question) with diplomacy, in the Minsk Agreements:
Sept. 5, 2014: First Minsk agreement is signed in Minsk, Belarus by Russia, Ukraine, the OSCE, and the leaders of the breakaway Donbass republics, with mediation by Germany and France in a Normandy Format. It fails to resolve the conflict.
Feb. 12, 2015: Minsk II is signed in Belarus, which would end the fighting and grant the republics autonomy while they remain part of Ukraine. The accord was unanimously endorsed by the U.N. Security Council on Feb. 15. In December 2022 former German Chancellor Angela Merkel admits West never had intention of pushing for Minsk implementation and essentially used it as a ruse to give time for NATO to arm and train the Ukraine armed forces.
Note how the West later admitted these agreements were a sham, and the intent was always to create a hostile state on Russia’s border.
Most recently,
February 2022: Russia begins its military intervention into Donbass in the still ongoing Ukrainian civil war after first recognizing the independence of Luhansk and Donetsk.
Before the intervention, OSCE maps show a significant uptick of shelling from Ukraine into the separatist republics, where more than 10,000 people have been killed since 2014.
Ahh, this is framed differently. But in the end there was a diplomatic contract and Russia broke it. I get that they could’ve been worried about a country near them having military forces, but going to war is not an appropriate response to that.
I know this is a long response but please read this thoroughly and go through the links provided, as i have the impression that you didn’t do so with the other posts that i directed you to and as a result your understanding is still very superficial:
Yes, there was indeed a diplomatic contract, one endorsed by the entire UN security council. It was called the Minsk agreements. These agreements were between the post-Maidan Kiev regime and the governments of the separatist republics Donetsk and Lugansk. These were the only signatory parties to that agreement. Russia was not a signatory, it was not a party to those agreements, it merely mediated the talks alongside the Europeans, therefore it was not their responsibility to abide by them and neither could they break them. Russia only had mediator status in the Minsk agreements, same as France and Germany.
Read this
to see exactly what the Minsk agreements were and what they entailed. The obligations of the two parties are spelled out quite explicitly. And here
is further analysis of the Minsk agreements, who was obligated to do what and who broke them.
They were also supposed to enshrine into law the autonomous status of the Donbass republics (formed when the people of those regions rose up and formed their own government after the illegal Maidan coup) via a constitutional reform to decentralize and federalize Ukraine, which they also never did. Ukraine’s previous president Poroshenko openly and proudly admitted that they were never going to do this.
The proximate cause for the conflict was this breakdown of the Minsk agreements and the imminent threat to the people of the Donbass who were facing an all out attack by a massively rearmed (with the help of NATO) ultra-nationalist regime that celebrates Nazi collaborators. A regime which already had a years long history of brutal repression of political opponents and of committing atrocities and war crimes against ethnic Russians in Ukraine, which had already passed laws suppressing Russian language and culture (which was the majority spoken language in Ukraine pre-2014), and whose supporters frequently and openly admitted their intent to ethnically cleanse the Donbass of millions of people who don’t fit into their conception of an ethnically pure Ukraine.
And the larger geopolitical context of NATO threatening Russia is also not something that you should be dismissing so flippantly. NATO has a history of aggression such as against Yugoslavia/Serbia and Libya. It is not a defensive alliance, and its stationing of intermediate range missiles in Ukraine (which NATO explicitly refused to rule out) which could be used for a decapitation or nuclear first strike is an existential threat that no Russian government could ignore. Especially when it has been made clear that NATO’s intent is to destroy, balkanize and subjugate Russia, which is something that western think tanks and leaders of NATO member states such as the Baltic states openly state as their goal and hold conferences discussing how to achieve.
And speaking of breaches of contracts, Ukraine’s declaration of state sovereignty which Russia agreed to respect explicitly stated that Ukraine would be a neutral state. The fact that the pro-western governments which came to power in Ukraine as a result of western orchestrated color revolutions proceeded to align with and attempt to join NATO directly violates the conditions under which their independence was agreed to.
Taking military action was Russia’s last resort after all diplomatic avenues had failed and the security situation had become critical. There were many opportunities to avoid triggering this conflict but at every turn the West and its Ukrainian proxies insisted instead on antagonizing Russia, disregarding its clearly stated vital interests and red lines, and taking actions that harm Russia and Russian people.
If the West had never orchestrated the Maidan coup in 2014 none of this would be happening. If the Ukrainians had abided by and implemented the Minsk agreements any time between 2014 and 2022. If the US had accepted the proposed Draft Security Treaty offered by Russia in late 2021 (itself a version of an earlier proposal for a Russia-NATO security treaty from 2009). Even in 2022, at first Russia only sought to bring Ukraine to the negotiating table and offered them a very favorable way out with the 2022 Istanbul peace deal (proposed by the Ukrainians, by the way), which yet again was reneged on by Ukraine at the behest of its Western sponsors.
Every time Russia made an effort to come to a mutually beneficial agreement they were rebuffed and the West instead chose conflict and war. How is Russia supposed to deal with such people? What is the “appropriate response” in your view?
But you should care. It’s no use simply feeling good about yourself for recognizing the bullshit if most people are still trapped in that narrative. If you want things to change you need to find a way to help others to also stop believing that bullshit. Because real change is made by the masses, not singular enlightened individuals.
I agree, and I’d add that there is a material aspect to the equation as well. As the standard of living continues to decline due to neoliberal policies, people in the mainstream start having a crisis of faith and they become more open to alternative interpretations of reality. It’s important to pick your battles and focus on educating people who have already started developing doubts on their own. People who are still living in liberal wonderland will not be swayed by any argument, and you’d almost certainly will just be wasting your time.
You’re right. I do and should care. Thinking it over, I didn’t quite have a right understanding of my own opinion. Trying again:
I do care about the consequences of many people believing bullshit. And we can see this happening with American and Russian influence of disinformation around the world right now. And a lot of people are hurt because of it.
As for the validity of the bullshit, that’s where I don’t care how many people believe it.
Please, these lies about Russian “disinformation” are tired and overdone. At least come up with a new ridiculous narrative that is at least novel if you want to spread lies.
Lies? I just follow the news. But feel free to debunk a few for me. I wouldn’t really know where to start. A recent issue claimed to be Russian disinformation was that Ukraine started the war. Is that true?
Keep your mouth closed about things you admit you know nothing about
Dang, someone feels attacked by a different perspective. Just don’t listen, and let me learn about these ideas. With how much of a mess news sources are nowadays I appreciate learning about how others view things ever more. I want to know what’s going on
If you are trying to “learn” about these ideas you shouldn’t be offering a different perspective but in fact learning. The two are in opposition to one another. Hmm wonder why a communist isn’t entertaining propaganda on a communist website? Hmmmm wonder why?
I can’t really hide my perspective to have it challenged. Someone linked an article from a place that’s new to me though. It does present a different bit of the picture of recent events
First let me say that i’m sorry that some of the answers you received have been a little snippy and lacking in patience. If you really are trying to learn, that is commendable. I don’t think it’s right getting angry at someone for not knowing better if they are really making an honest effort to inform themselves.
That being said, before you opine further on this topic i think you should take some time to thoroughly try and understand the facts that your mainstream media hides from you. This post is a good place to start. Read the answers which some of us have provided there which explain, with verifiable sources, the root causes of the conflict.
Then take a look at this other post which goes further into one of the main causes of this conflict which is almost entirely ignored by the mainstream media. Read through the articles which are linked in the comments in response to the poster’s question. Keep in mind that the mainstream media has been and continues to blatantly lie about all of this.
I recommend this 2016 documentary called Donbass by Anne-Laure Bonnel for some background on the issue
(Alt link if that one doesn’t work)
I do like myself documentaries! It might have to wait for the weekend though, thank you!
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
a place to start: https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/2022_Russo-Ukrainian_conflict
I’ll have a look! Thank you!
It presents about the same story as what I’ve heard up until now. But with a bunch more details, I like it. And now I’ve got some fact checking to do.
Thank you for giving me a starting point!
How do you define the start of the war?
How much do you know about the Minsk Agreements, for instance?
I know there were disagreements. But as I understand it, Russia first brought guns to the situation
There’s an awful lot behind those disagreements, but significant violence only started in the spring of 2014:
Russia twice agrees to try and resolve the violence on its border (and the larger NATO expansion question) with diplomacy, in the Minsk Agreements:
Note how the West later admitted these agreements were a sham, and the intent was always to create a hostile state on Russia’s border.
Most recently,
Ahh, this is framed differently. But in the end there was a diplomatic contract and Russia broke it. I get that they could’ve been worried about a country near them having military forces, but going to war is not an appropriate response to that.
I know this is a long response but please read this thoroughly and go through the links provided, as i have the impression that you didn’t do so with the other posts that i directed you to and as a result your understanding is still very superficial:
Yes, there was indeed a diplomatic contract, one endorsed by the entire UN security council. It was called the Minsk agreements. These agreements were between the post-Maidan Kiev regime and the governments of the separatist republics Donetsk and Lugansk. These were the only signatory parties to that agreement. Russia was not a signatory, it was not a party to those agreements, it merely mediated the talks alongside the Europeans, therefore it was not their responsibility to abide by them and neither could they break them. Russia only had mediator status in the Minsk agreements, same as France and Germany.
Read this to see exactly what the Minsk agreements were and what they entailed. The obligations of the two parties are spelled out quite explicitly. And here is further analysis of the Minsk agreements, who was obligated to do what and who broke them.
The ones who broke the Minsk agreements were the Ukrainians. According to Minsk they were supposed to halt hostilities and withdraw heavy weaponry from the line of contact, which they never did. Instead they repeatedly violated the ceasefire and continued bombing and killing civilians, as confirmed by OSCE observers, from 2015 all the way to 2022.
They were also supposed to enshrine into law the autonomous status of the Donbass republics (formed when the people of those regions rose up and formed their own government after the illegal Maidan coup) via a constitutional reform to decentralize and federalize Ukraine, which they also never did. Ukraine’s previous president Poroshenko openly and proudly admitted that they were never going to do this.
They were supposed to negotiate further on the details of the implementation of the agreement with the leaders of the Donbass republics, which they completely refused to do and constantly bragged and boasted in their own media about how they staunchly refuse to negotiate with the Donbass republics despite having signed an agreement to do so.
The Europeans, France and Germany, were supposed to ensure that Kiev abided by the agreement, but all they did was turn a blind eye to Ukraine refusing to fulfill any of its obligations under the agreement they themselves signed. Now we know , as admitted by the at the time leaders of France and Germany, F. Hollande and A. Merkel, that they viewed the Minsk agreements as a ploy, a trick pulled on Russia to buy Ukraine time to rearm and prepare to go to war against the Donbass and Russia. The current Kiev regime also admitted to deliberately sabotaging the agreements, just like they reneged on the peace deal that they had agreed to in Istanbul 2022.
The proximate cause for the conflict was this breakdown of the Minsk agreements and the imminent threat to the people of the Donbass who were facing an all out attack by a massively rearmed (with the help of NATO) ultra-nationalist regime that celebrates Nazi collaborators. A regime which already had a years long history of brutal repression of political opponents and of committing atrocities and war crimes against ethnic Russians in Ukraine, which had already passed laws suppressing Russian language and culture (which was the majority spoken language in Ukraine pre-2014), and whose supporters frequently and openly admitted their intent to ethnically cleanse the Donbass of millions of people who don’t fit into their conception of an ethnically pure Ukraine.
Zelensky himself told people who identify as Russian to leave what he considers Ukraine even if they and their families have lived there for generations. The parallels of the Ukrainian nationalist project to the genocidal ethnic cleansing in Palestine are so obvious that Zelensky even admitted he wants Ukraine to be “a big Israel”. Was Russia just supposed to allow this to happen?
And the larger geopolitical context of NATO threatening Russia is also not something that you should be dismissing so flippantly. NATO has a history of aggression such as against Yugoslavia/Serbia and Libya. It is not a defensive alliance, and its stationing of intermediate range missiles in Ukraine (which NATO explicitly refused to rule out) which could be used for a decapitation or nuclear first strike is an existential threat that no Russian government could ignore. Especially when it has been made clear that NATO’s intent is to destroy, balkanize and subjugate Russia, which is something that western think tanks and leaders of NATO member states such as the Baltic states openly state as their goal and hold conferences discussing how to achieve.
And speaking of breaches of contracts, Ukraine’s declaration of state sovereignty which Russia agreed to respect explicitly stated that Ukraine would be a neutral state. The fact that the pro-western governments which came to power in Ukraine as a result of western orchestrated color revolutions proceeded to align with and attempt to join NATO directly violates the conditions under which their independence was agreed to.
Taking military action was Russia’s last resort after all diplomatic avenues had failed and the security situation had become critical. There were many opportunities to avoid triggering this conflict but at every turn the West and its Ukrainian proxies insisted instead on antagonizing Russia, disregarding its clearly stated vital interests and red lines, and taking actions that harm Russia and Russian people.
If the West had never orchestrated the Maidan coup in 2014 none of this would be happening. If the Ukrainians had abided by and implemented the Minsk agreements any time between 2014 and 2022. If the US had accepted the proposed Draft Security Treaty offered by Russia in late 2021 (itself a version of an earlier proposal for a Russia-NATO security treaty from 2009). Even in 2022, at first Russia only sought to bring Ukraine to the negotiating table and offered them a very favorable way out with the 2022 Istanbul peace deal (proposed by the Ukrainians, by the way), which yet again was reneged on by Ukraine at the behest of its Western sponsors.
Every time Russia made an effort to come to a mutually beneficial agreement they were rebuffed and the West instead chose conflict and war. How is Russia supposed to deal with such people? What is the “appropriate response” in your view?