I think the only point of contention is the cause of the famine (you assert that agriculturally vital skills were removed from the labor pool; I assert that the problem was organizational and that the vital skills were still present in more-than-sufficient quantities), rather than the cruelty of the Soviet Union.
I think at this point I jump straight to malice because before the '22 invasion of Ukraine there were still a lot of people online openly denying Holodomor as a actual genocide caused by the Soviet Union. And the common argument I’ve heard was that it wasn’t a “real” genocide because it was a “logistical issue”. So people were saying that it was incompetence that led to it, which doesn’t fit the exact definition of a “genocide”. Which I think is a disgusting way to defend a regime that caused so much pain.
I’m not saying that you’re doing any of that. I think that technically you’re correct and I’m just splitting hairs at this point. I just have a personal aversion to drawing distinctions between intent and effect in this specific case due to my past experiences. But it’s important to have all your facts straight when making an argument, so I’ll work on that.
No, no, I totally get it, I’ve run into Holodomor deniers using that line of thought too. It’s important, for that very reason, to split the broader issue of the 30-33 famine and the Holodomor. The former was a very particular brand of callous incompetence. The latter was malice, absolutely.
I think the only point of contention is the cause of the famine (you assert that agriculturally vital skills were removed from the labor pool; I assert that the problem was organizational and that the vital skills were still present in more-than-sufficient quantities), rather than the cruelty of the Soviet Union.
Fair enough. Malice vs incompetence.
I think at this point I jump straight to malice because before the '22 invasion of Ukraine there were still a lot of people online openly denying Holodomor as a actual genocide caused by the Soviet Union. And the common argument I’ve heard was that it wasn’t a “real” genocide because it was a “logistical issue”. So people were saying that it was incompetence that led to it, which doesn’t fit the exact definition of a “genocide”. Which I think is a disgusting way to defend a regime that caused so much pain.
I’m not saying that you’re doing any of that. I think that technically you’re correct and I’m just splitting hairs at this point. I just have a personal aversion to drawing distinctions between intent and effect in this specific case due to my past experiences. But it’s important to have all your facts straight when making an argument, so I’ll work on that.
No, no, I totally get it, I’ve run into Holodomor deniers using that line of thought too. It’s important, for that very reason, to split the broader issue of the 30-33 famine and the Holodomor. The former was a very particular brand of callous incompetence. The latter was malice, absolutely.