It’s really hard to found any kind of movement that aims to respect and accept “cis-gendered, white, straight men”. Because, factually and in the public eye, those people just generally need less help than various minorities that each get oppressed.
But for any individual person, it’s horribly demeaning to come home from a hard day at work not making enough to buy the PlayStation you want, aching for someone to talk to, and all the support groups out there are for “Black Engineers of America”, or “Help for Transgenders afraid to come out to their parents”. I say that as someone who absolutely respects and values the benefit those groups bring. Keep in mind: People looking in from the outside of those orgs probably also have a hard time seeing or understanding the amount of societal pain people have just by being in those minority groups, before and after those organizations started forming.
The boringly sad way of putting it is, if you are white, cis-gendered, male, and straight, (in short, the “majority”), and you happen to not have a talent that makes you unique, you literally can’t finish the sentence “I am PROUD to be ____” without coming across as a bit of a demon in some people’s eyes.
My post is longer than it should be for a meme comment, but I do want to end on a positive / plan of action: At the very least, one step is acknowledgment, and that never has to come at the cost of those minority groups - each of whom need their own, often more urgent help. A big one I’d want is to completely shut down the “male negativity” that’s kinda formed in media, as a backlashing response to the “women negativity” in terrible old media. We often say we want men to open up and be more emotional, yet it’s still played for laughs on TV.
I tried to tag you in my reply below but I’m not sure if I did it right. I wrote TWO long posts underneath @cubedsteaks – and YOU said your post was longer than it should be! If you don’t have time to read my serialized thoughts below, just know that I appreciated your response.
The boringly sad way of putting it is, if you are white, cis-gendered, male, and straight, (in short, the “majority”), and you happen to not have a talent that makes you unique, you literally can’t finish the sentence “I am PROUD to be ____” without coming across as a bit of a demon in some people’s eyes.
I mean, no one will give you guff for “Irish-American pride” or “English-American pride” or “Italian-American pride”, and American pride is basically mandatory in our society. Male pride is still very much lionized (pun intended) in our society, and celebrated. I believe the in-vogue phrase for gynephilia positivity is “All women are queens” followed by clapping emojis. Nothing for being cis-gendered, I suppose.
But for any individual person, it’s horribly demeaning to come home from a hard day at work not making enough to buy the PlayStation you want, aching for someone to talk to, and all the support groups out there are for “Black Engineers of America”, or “Help for Transgenders afraid to come out to their parents”. I say that as someone who absolutely respects and values the benefit those groups bring. Keep in mind: People looking in from the outside of those orgs probably also have a hard time seeing or understanding the amount of societal pain people have just by being in those minority groups, before and after those organizations started forming.
What’s so crazy about this is even I, as a bisexual woman don’t get to go to any support groups cause where I live, if you’re not trans and a youth, who cares?? If you’re not BIPOC, tough shit.
Hell most people, even other gay people will act like bisexuality isn’t real or doesn’t count or isn’t good enough to warrant any kind of support.
Like even the queer events here are usually just targeted towards trans and BIPOC or aro/ace people. It’s like the other parts of LGBTQ+ don’t even matter to them.
I’m attempting to reply to @Katana314 & @cubedsteaks but I really don’t know what I’m doing. Katana, you say your post is too long for the format, and I totally get what you mean but want you to know how much I appreciate it. I’ll use the spoons metaphor to say that sometimes I’m able, open, eager to engage in patient dialogue… and sometimes I’m not. Tonight I am and I’ve just written a reply that’s TOO LONG for the input field! Here’s Part One:
I’m white, 51, gay, artist. Whenever I gripe about “white America” it is from my biased perspective. My experience of “my culture” growing up was a homogenous monoethnic white Christian blob, centered on money/materialism and gatekeeping/judgment of others. That doesn’t have to be everyone’s experience of white America, but it was mine – and my observation of cultural critiques tells me that I’m not the only one who saw things that way. I’m not self-hating now but I was deeply self-hating until I accepted myself as “unacceptable” to the standards of my upbringing. I took a different path and feel that I have found meaning by rejecting my upbringing. Other groups speak of “the ancestors” and such… I find little sustenance there since my ancestors were white supremacists. The generation above me are anti-gay, Fox-watching, Trump-voting… We have superficial relationships but not what I call love. In some ways this gulf is “my fault” because it has been my “decision” to reject my upbringing… but I suffered massive cognitive dissonance until I sort of “rebooted” as a clean slate. Sigh. I am running out of spoons as I type – didn’t mean to get so deeply personal. Uhhh, earlier someone objected to me calling out “white America”; I didn’t reply because it didn’t feel like an invitation to productive conversation. The best I might have come up with would have been sarcastic: “Gosh, I’d hate for any white Americans to see my post and decide to be awful people to spite me!” It’s just… yeah. I knew when I wrote my initial post it was lacking nuance, because of the format. And I live in FUCKING JACKSONVILLE. [Pause for real tears.] I have been in the store where the recent murders took place. I received my Covid shots on the campus of the HBCU the white terrorist prowled before he went and killed elsewhere. When I was the killer’s age I was at my lowest point mentally/emotionally. If I had had easy access to guns I might not be here today. Thankfully guns were not part of my family’s culture. Few people I knew growing up in the 70s/80s were into guns. Some people went on hunting trips. Other than that no one wanted guns around in the suburbs other than bb-guns. When I was the killer’s age I felt zero connection to community. I never fell into white supremacy (beyond the implicit bias I absorbed as standard). I was religious and deeply, desperately closeted. Any aggressive and negative thoughts I had were directed at the gay community. I was bitter that support groups existed for “them” and not for me. It could have been my support, but my homophobia was so strong it took me until almost 30 to accept myself as gay. My 20s were awful. My life continues to be isolated… The gay men I know are into money, superficial looks, partying, drugs, alcohol, and more money – and I hate lazily invoking stereotypes but this is how I feel. I’ve known so many gay Republicans. It hurts. My own voting history was: GOP, NOTHING, GREEN, DEM, DEM, DEM, DEM… I’m a little proud I only voted GOP once, but it took me 3-4 presidential cycles for me to understand the US democracy game. That’s another area where community might have helped, but I felt none.
If I had the spoons…
I have a friend who begins her fantasies with, “When I win the lottery…” Since I see the lottery as harmful money-worship I had a conversation with this friend about it. She uses the phrase to inspire freedom to dream, so I invented my own variation: When I’m fully funded! An artist (who rejects a consumerist model) can dream, can’t he?!
2/2
When I’m fully funded I would devise a series called White People Problems. Despite the provocative title I would not presume to speak for others. Honest discourse is personal and leaves the generalizing to the audience. In this long post I have scratched the surface of what I see as “white people’s problems.” I believe that many white Americans are hurting, disconnected from meaning, disconnected from each other. The centrality of money and centuries of exploitation are the foundational causes. Racial division is a secondary result and useful tool to maintain society based on materialism and exploitation. On Being is my favorite podcast. I think it may have been an episode with Isabel Wilkerson (Castehttps://www.isabelwilkerson.com) that pointed out how all of society is harmed by racism, white supremacy, inequality. I believe white Americans suffer deeply. In very different ways from non-whites, obviously. I believe that the loudest voices addressing white people who are suffering offer increased hate and bigotry, in a stubborn commitment to sunk costs. If I were fully funded I would seek to address this need. I believe that the suffering of white Americans (including materialism, lack of community, lack of meaning) is destroying civilization and the planet.
And SIGH a slight post script for anyone who may feel argumentative about what I have said: There is a difference between blame, shame, and hate, and what I am saying. Also keep in mind that I am trying to phrase this SIMPLY as my beliefs from my personal feelings and experience as a white male who has lived the past half century. In my experience white identity, white culture, white commitment to democracy and other supposed values, and white Christianity are hollow and meaningless. I’m not trying to argue others into seeing my point of view, but I think that the things we are witnessing reinforce my suspicions. Declines in religious membership indicate something is lacking there. Religion especially angers me because of its privileged status and the fact that it is the realm that could be healing and helping. In my experience US white Christianity is causing harm. I called myself an atheist for many years; and, though that’s technically accurate, I now identify as Humanist. I prefer to express positive values to others. I think a person can be any other affiliation and also a humanist.
…
I could go on forever because I feel a lot of passion around these topics. I’ll end by saying democracy is consent. Respecting each other requires consent. We will never fully understand or agree with each other. Improving democracy, while participating in our current flawed system, is the only hope I see. Money and structural inequalities are corruptions of democracy that remove consent. One person, one vote. Removing manipulation. I don’t believe I will live to see the triumph of respect for ourselves and each other. It’s my guiding star, though.
I make the joke about “fully funded” but it’s not a joke. If anyone who sees this knows of any way I could direct my passion towards improving the world I am open to suggestions. All my previous jobs were making the world worse, and making me unhappy. I quit during the pandemic. I am a visual artist, committed to humanism and democracy. Lately I have been living off beans, bread, and peanut butter. If I could I would put this paragraph in iMessage hidden style, or upside down. I don’t want to ruin the points I’m sincerely trying to make by discussing the fact that I’m not making ends meet. At the same time I do think my lack of income is a relevant data point.
I already wrote 2 loooong responses to you and @katana314 but I wanted to piggyback more specifically on what you say here. As an artist I have felt a lack of opportunities / interest / niche because I’m a middle aged, white, male, upper middle class background. I somehow don’t think my gayness counts for much, probably related to some of my own stereotypes about my demographic that I get into in my longer comments. The doors that are open to me as a white male do not lead places I want to go. Living according to my values leads me into spaces where my characteristics are (possibly) unwanted. It’s not something I normally articulate due to the many advantages I do have, and have experienced. My focus is to produce work in accordance with my values, to never stop expressing and living according to those values, and the positive feedback I do receive is more valuable that way.
It’s really hard to found any kind of movement that aims to respect and accept “cis-gendered, white, straight men”. Because, factually and in the public eye, those people just generally need less help than various minorities that each get oppressed.
But for any individual person, it’s horribly demeaning to come home from a hard day at work not making enough to buy the PlayStation you want, aching for someone to talk to, and all the support groups out there are for “Black Engineers of America”, or “Help for Transgenders afraid to come out to their parents”. I say that as someone who absolutely respects and values the benefit those groups bring. Keep in mind: People looking in from the outside of those orgs probably also have a hard time seeing or understanding the amount of societal pain people have just by being in those minority groups, before and after those organizations started forming.
The boringly sad way of putting it is, if you are white, cis-gendered, male, and straight, (in short, the “majority”), and you happen to not have a talent that makes you unique, you literally can’t finish the sentence “I am PROUD to be ____” without coming across as a bit of a demon in some people’s eyes.
My post is longer than it should be for a meme comment, but I do want to end on a positive / plan of action: At the very least, one step is acknowledgment, and that never has to come at the cost of those minority groups - each of whom need their own, often more urgent help. A big one I’d want is to completely shut down the “male negativity” that’s kinda formed in media, as a backlashing response to the “women negativity” in terrible old media. We often say we want men to open up and be more emotional, yet it’s still played for laughs on TV.
I tried to tag you in my reply below but I’m not sure if I did it right. I wrote TWO long posts underneath @cubedsteaks – and YOU said your post was longer than it should be! If you don’t have time to read my serialized thoughts below, just know that I appreciated your response.
I mean, no one will give you guff for “Irish-American pride” or “English-American pride” or “Italian-American pride”, and American pride is basically mandatory in our society. Male pride is still very much lionized (pun intended) in our society, and celebrated. I believe the in-vogue phrase for gynephilia positivity is “All women are queens” followed by clapping emojis. Nothing for being cis-gendered, I suppose.
What’s so crazy about this is even I, as a bisexual woman don’t get to go to any support groups cause where I live, if you’re not trans and a youth, who cares?? If you’re not BIPOC, tough shit.
Hell most people, even other gay people will act like bisexuality isn’t real or doesn’t count or isn’t good enough to warrant any kind of support.
Like even the queer events here are usually just targeted towards trans and BIPOC or aro/ace people. It’s like the other parts of LGBTQ+ don’t even matter to them.
I’m attempting to reply to @Katana314 & @cubedsteaks but I really don’t know what I’m doing. Katana, you say your post is too long for the format, and I totally get what you mean but want you to know how much I appreciate it. I’ll use the spoons metaphor to say that sometimes I’m able, open, eager to engage in patient dialogue… and sometimes I’m not. Tonight I am and I’ve just written a reply that’s TOO LONG for the input field! Here’s Part One:
I’m white, 51, gay, artist. Whenever I gripe about “white America” it is from my biased perspective. My experience of “my culture” growing up was a homogenous monoethnic white Christian blob, centered on money/materialism and gatekeeping/judgment of others. That doesn’t have to be everyone’s experience of white America, but it was mine – and my observation of cultural critiques tells me that I’m not the only one who saw things that way. I’m not self-hating now but I was deeply self-hating until I accepted myself as “unacceptable” to the standards of my upbringing. I took a different path and feel that I have found meaning by rejecting my upbringing. Other groups speak of “the ancestors” and such… I find little sustenance there since my ancestors were white supremacists. The generation above me are anti-gay, Fox-watching, Trump-voting… We have superficial relationships but not what I call love. In some ways this gulf is “my fault” because it has been my “decision” to reject my upbringing… but I suffered massive cognitive dissonance until I sort of “rebooted” as a clean slate. Sigh. I am running out of spoons as I type – didn’t mean to get so deeply personal. Uhhh, earlier someone objected to me calling out “white America”; I didn’t reply because it didn’t feel like an invitation to productive conversation. The best I might have come up with would have been sarcastic: “Gosh, I’d hate for any white Americans to see my post and decide to be awful people to spite me!” It’s just… yeah. I knew when I wrote my initial post it was lacking nuance, because of the format. And I live in FUCKING JACKSONVILLE. [Pause for real tears.] I have been in the store where the recent murders took place. I received my Covid shots on the campus of the HBCU the white terrorist prowled before he went and killed elsewhere. When I was the killer’s age I was at my lowest point mentally/emotionally. If I had had easy access to guns I might not be here today. Thankfully guns were not part of my family’s culture. Few people I knew growing up in the 70s/80s were into guns. Some people went on hunting trips. Other than that no one wanted guns around in the suburbs other than bb-guns. When I was the killer’s age I felt zero connection to community. I never fell into white supremacy (beyond the implicit bias I absorbed as standard). I was religious and deeply, desperately closeted. Any aggressive and negative thoughts I had were directed at the gay community. I was bitter that support groups existed for “them” and not for me. It could have been my support, but my homophobia was so strong it took me until almost 30 to accept myself as gay. My 20s were awful. My life continues to be isolated… The gay men I know are into money, superficial looks, partying, drugs, alcohol, and more money – and I hate lazily invoking stereotypes but this is how I feel. I’ve known so many gay Republicans. It hurts. My own voting history was: GOP, NOTHING, GREEN, DEM, DEM, DEM, DEM… I’m a little proud I only voted GOP once, but it took me 3-4 presidential cycles for me to understand the US democracy game. That’s another area where community might have helped, but I felt none.
If I had the spoons…
I have a friend who begins her fantasies with, “When I win the lottery…” Since I see the lottery as harmful money-worship I had a conversation with this friend about it. She uses the phrase to inspire freedom to dream, so I invented my own variation: When I’m fully funded! An artist (who rejects a consumerist model) can dream, can’t he?!
1/2
2/2
When I’m fully funded I would devise a series called White People Problems. Despite the provocative title I would not presume to speak for others. Honest discourse is personal and leaves the generalizing to the audience. In this long post I have scratched the surface of what I see as “white people’s problems.” I believe that many white Americans are hurting, disconnected from meaning, disconnected from each other. The centrality of money and centuries of exploitation are the foundational causes. Racial division is a secondary result and useful tool to maintain society based on materialism and exploitation. On Being is my favorite podcast. I think it may have been an episode with Isabel Wilkerson (Caste https://www.isabelwilkerson.com) that pointed out how all of society is harmed by racism, white supremacy, inequality. I believe white Americans suffer deeply. In very different ways from non-whites, obviously. I believe that the loudest voices addressing white people who are suffering offer increased hate and bigotry, in a stubborn commitment to sunk costs. If I were fully funded I would seek to address this need. I believe that the suffering of white Americans (including materialism, lack of community, lack of meaning) is destroying civilization and the planet.
And SIGH a slight post script for anyone who may feel argumentative about what I have said: There is a difference between blame, shame, and hate, and what I am saying. Also keep in mind that I am trying to phrase this SIMPLY as my beliefs from my personal feelings and experience as a white male who has lived the past half century. In my experience white identity, white culture, white commitment to democracy and other supposed values, and white Christianity are hollow and meaningless. I’m not trying to argue others into seeing my point of view, but I think that the things we are witnessing reinforce my suspicions. Declines in religious membership indicate something is lacking there. Religion especially angers me because of its privileged status and the fact that it is the realm that could be healing and helping. In my experience US white Christianity is causing harm. I called myself an atheist for many years; and, though that’s technically accurate, I now identify as Humanist. I prefer to express positive values to others. I think a person can be any other affiliation and also a humanist.
…
I could go on forever because I feel a lot of passion around these topics. I’ll end by saying democracy is consent. Respecting each other requires consent. We will never fully understand or agree with each other. Improving democracy, while participating in our current flawed system, is the only hope I see. Money and structural inequalities are corruptions of democracy that remove consent. One person, one vote. Removing manipulation. I don’t believe I will live to see the triumph of respect for ourselves and each other. It’s my guiding star, though.
I make the joke about “fully funded” but it’s not a joke. If anyone who sees this knows of any way I could direct my passion towards improving the world I am open to suggestions. All my previous jobs were making the world worse, and making me unhappy. I quit during the pandemic. I am a visual artist, committed to humanism and democracy. Lately I have been living off beans, bread, and peanut butter. If I could I would put this paragraph in iMessage hidden style, or upside down. I don’t want to ruin the points I’m sincerely trying to make by discussing the fact that I’m not making ends meet. At the same time I do think my lack of income is a relevant data point.
I already wrote 2 loooong responses to you and @katana314 but I wanted to piggyback more specifically on what you say here. As an artist I have felt a lack of opportunities / interest / niche because I’m a middle aged, white, male, upper middle class background. I somehow don’t think my gayness counts for much, probably related to some of my own stereotypes about my demographic that I get into in my longer comments. The doors that are open to me as a white male do not lead places I want to go. Living according to my values leads me into spaces where my characteristics are (possibly) unwanted. It’s not something I normally articulate due to the many advantages I do have, and have experienced. My focus is to produce work in accordance with my values, to never stop expressing and living according to those values, and the positive feedback I do receive is more valuable that way.