Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) shares his message to voters in the Uncommitted Movement who are considering not voting in the presidential race over the Biden administration's handling of Israel.
I’m a leftist. I don’t want you to change whoever you’re voting for, vote what you feel is right.
What I do want you to do is be honest. I believe that the only way we can fix things is to admit the reality of the situation that we’re in.
I want you to admit that you’re voting for a genocidal candidate. Because either way if you’re voting Trump or Harris, you’re voting a genocidal candidate.
Once you can admit that, then we can start thinking about fixing it.
If you’re just going to shove your head in the sand and refuse to acknowledge your complicity in the system, then you are a slave to it.
I have not seen many leftists not agree that both votes are for genocide - that’s just a given.
But protesting the system during the election is daft. Do you want genocide, or more genocide? You are not a slave to the system if you vote and then actually do something about it to change it.
Ignoring the current system is plain ignorance. Voting doesn’t make you a slave. Voting and giving up makes you a slave. How about vote and campaign for change instead. Despair does not lead to change.
I have not seen many leftists not agree that both votes are for genocide - that’s just a given.
Neither have I. I’ve seen hundreds of liberals argue that fact, though. I’ve had comments deleted elsewhere on Lemmy for “misinformation” for stating that Harris is genocidal.
So I apologise for not sharing your hopeful perspective that we can change the system after the election, because your peers refuse to acknowledge that the system needs to be changed. Perhaps you need to be replying to commenters other than me, because you don’t need to persuade me. Persuade THEM. The rest of the democrat-voting public.
There are also some great ways to get written off by the Democratic Party. Frequently not voting or voting third party makes for an unreliable constituency. No politician is going to pay a group that plays hard to get much heed. But for a constituency that turns out and works to turn out others, they’re going to be all ears. There’s a reason causes championed by Black women always feature fairly heavily in the Democratic Party platform. They really punch above their weight.
That breaks down when you consider how long Democrats have been moving to the right in order to appease Republican voters. Republicans aren’t known for consistently voting dem.
Vote this election then. And then campaign after the election. What’s stopping you from being the change later? Why teach the a lesson now, when the alternative is Drumpf?
I already have. How many times do I have to say that I HAVE ALREADY VOTED FOR HARRIS.
And then campaign after the election.
Centrists are great at coming up with excuses for why it’s never the time to do what they don’t want to do. There will be a new excuse and a new timetable for when it will be acceptable to say anything in opposition to centrists’ genocide. When that passes, there will be another date and another excuse.
Thanks for voting! I didn’t see it in your OP, and I dont keep track of what Lemmy users say across posts.
Im not a centerist. However there is a time and a place with everything in life. November 6th I’m ready to start promoting a new voting system and changing whats causing this mess.
We just have to do it when we won’t inconvenience them with a changing world and they can go on doing exactly what they are. Preferably so quiet they can forget we exist.
I would argue: Look at the what the people doing the genocide want and vote for their most likely opposition.
Its clear The Heritage Foundation, Netanyahu, Putin, Musk, Thiel etc want Trump to win. I would recommend Voting Kamala on those grounds as denying your enemy a win is far better strategic use of voting as a tool than believing the democrats will ever do the right thing.
Since I’m not terminally online and I have real conversations with real people in person on this topic, every single person I spoke with regardless of who they were voting for was unhappy with their choices.
first off: if you consistently vote for a candidate no matter what they do then they can write you off.
No politician is going to pay a group that plays hard to get much heed.
imagine thinking drawing a line at ‘genocide’ is playing hard to get. my god the bar is so low. no wonder we dont have any fucking working class rights. thanks, you definitely know what your doing.
There’s a reason causes championed by Black women always feature fairly heavily in the Democratic Party platform.
yes. do tell. how exactly have the democrats have targetted black women issues specifically? go on I’ll wait.
The real issue is democrats get funding from the 1% and are unwilling to promote worker rights. that’s why they write off the left base issues. fortunately for them the left has been bolstering them regardless every election for decades despite this because republicans would literally murder people for being different. And that generally continues, even right now with harris.
If you look at the policies from harris’ campaign and compare it to 2016/2020.
no healthcare reform mostly just give aways to insurance companies through tax credits.
no minimum wage increase.
wont commit to keeping kahn the most effective FTC chair in more than 4 decades.
wont commit to supporting striking workers.
no mandated PTO/Sick leave for workers.
seems more corporate friendly than worker friendly to me. then add in a genocide on top and completely dismissing a minority group because they are inconvenient and here we are.
What left wing people are really telling you:
vote for what you think is best. If you’re in a safe state go wild on third party candidates. swing state? probably better off w/ harris.
let your reps know that your vote is at risk if the genocide continues post election. and then follow through in the next cycle.
Tim Walz for one has legislated paid leave. If Walz has half the power under Harris’ governing as people seem to believe Harris has under Biden I’d fully expect paid leave out of the Harris Walz admin.
that requires congressional approval. unrelated to harris’ campaign. I’d love to see it passed. I’d love to see harris campaign on it. I doubt we’ll see either.
A lot of what you’re listing off is more a symptom of Harris entering the race so late. She’s barely had the time to put together a campaign, let alone flesh out a real policy platform. That usually takes a long time, especially given that she has to show some level of independence from Biden while also
no healthcare reform mostly just give aways to insurance companies through tax credits.
What type of healthcare reform are you referring to? I don’t think that anything terribly drastic is really going to happen within the foreseeable future. The Democrats burned a 60-40 majority in the Senate just to get the ACA, a relatively modest reform, through Congress. Something like single payer does poll well… until you remind people that there’s no free lunch.
no minimum wage increase
She supports an increase to $15/hour, but that was pretty recent.
wont commit to keeping kahn the most effective FTC chair in more than 4 decades.
I won’t defend her here, she should have the courage to tell her tech allies that she’s not going to topple Kahn.
wont commit to supporting striking workers.
I’m not exactly sure what this means. The Biden administration has strengthened labor’s hand on the NLRB, which marked a significant difference from the Trump administration. Are you referring to the railroad strike of 2022?
no mandated PTO/Sick leave for workers.
What left wing people are really telling you:
I would be fine if that was what everyone was actually saying, but I hear a lot of people encouraging not voting or voting third party this cycle.
let your reps know that your vote is at risk if the genocide continues post election. and then follow through in the next cycle.
Politicians are trying to paste together a winning coalition. That’s why you’ll see Kamala’s platform roughly representing the center-left, that is a winning platform for a general election. The problem with having a hard line non-mainstream view on something like the Israel-Palestine conflict is that playing hard to get will only get you so far. If your opinion isn’t supported by the majority, it’s very, very hard to get a politician’s support.
😂 none of it is due to her entering late. These are all issues that have been active in past elections they havent gone away we just didnt have a primary.
Overall harris just is a shitty candidate, watch her speak. That’s why shes losing.
Arabs? Silences them at every turn, actively prevents their voices.
Gaza? Immediately drops her law and order routine in favor of a genocide. Funny that. Its almost like shes doesnt have any real policies.
Lgbt+ issues tries to deflect to ‘law and order’ statements. Instead of personally taking a position. Yes currently the law supports things like gender affirming care in prisons. Thats not the same thing as being an ally.
Labor? Nothing to see here either. It’d upset her masters.
If your opinion isn’t supported by the majority, it’s very, very hard to get a politician’s support.
I think you’re confusing majority with oligarchies. Most of those policies are majority supported.
What type of healthcare reform are you referring to?..
Id be open to any number of policies here. Ranging from single payer, to allowing Medicare/aid funding to be applied to state single payer systems. Right now American’s fund 5 different healthcare systems: the VA, federal employees, Medicare, medicaid, private. Add in obama care market places and you have 6. The overhead is absurd. Then add the second order impacts of the 80/20 split from obama care which only encourages insurance companies to pay more for care to increase their profits. Boggles my mind people think obama care was good policy.
Anyways, i can rant for ages on healthcare. You dont really want to start on that road if you think you’ll have an insight that will make harris look good. ;)
She supports an increase to $15/hour, but that was pretty recent.
Yeah because many states are pushing it on their own anyways. And she doesnt have the support from the party so we wont see it regardless. Its an easy bone with no actual substance behind it. As you’re very well aware at this point. Shes just desperate and unwilling to commit to the actual things she can do. Curious you thought mentioning it would matter. 🧐
NLRB, which marked a significant difference from the Trump administration. Are you referring to the railroad strike of 2022?
Indeed he has, and yes. Essentially my point is harris has no policy positions for labor. She doesnt get credit for biden’s policies, she only gets demerits for not speaking out against the failures. Find me her policy positions on labor. Breaking the train strike was an absolute debacle for the biden admin. And they know it, its why they wouldn’t touch the port strikers so close to the election. Not that they didnt want to mind you. Contrary to common belief most voters do have long memories. They just get encoded as positive or negative. They may not talk about these older issues but they are definitely taken into account.
I hear a lot of people encouraging not voting or voting third party this cycle.
Yes. As they should if they’re in a blue state. Personally i went third party as well in my +20 blue state. Harris campaign has jack shit for americans besides not trump. She has had plenty of time to put together a positive story for her campaign but she far the best she can muster is: ignore systemic issues in health care by bribing the dying (can they even get to the polls? Im assuming its really targetting their care givers) and a 50k stipend to start a business that I’m sure if i did deeper will have so many hoops that almost no one will get it. Im happy to be blessed that i can give her the middle finger she so rightfully deserves at this point.
Most of what you’re seeing from the left right now on gaza is because all the other issues are not feasible without full democratic support. Kahn/genocide are both things harris absolutely can commit to and enact on her own.
So i ask everyone again: have you called your reps repeatedly in support of gaza? Have you emails harris campaign? The sad reality is most of you think you know how to vote lesser evil and all that but your strategy is essentially guaranteed to fail. Not only will you not get concessions unless you are willing to with hold your vote but you’re behavior towards people who can and do will cause them to be less likely to support your party in the future.
At this point its clear most Harris supporters are more than comfortable with a genocidal candidate. For me, i will continue voting for candidates who represent my interests which currently very few democrats do and withholding it until they do. It usually doesnt take much. Dont be an asshole, have policies that support labor. The fact most Democrats can’t meet this bar is astounding.
I am a reliable d voter. I’m the block you claim they cater to. I’ve voted in literally every election able always for D. Ole reliable. Except a genocide is a step to far. They could win me back and many other reliable Dems if they did one crazy trick…
I 100% agree that this is classic manufactured consent, and there is no real choice in this election.
I also want there to be a real choice in the future. The least we can do in the future is get ranked choice voting and do away with the electoral college. Almost literally the least; those are so bare minimum that they can’t even be called radical.
Your reading comprehension is fucking atrocious, then. Even when Biden was the candidate, the vast majority has been saying “ok, continuing to support Isreal as they commit war atrocities is bad, but Trump would be much worse” for Gaza, and a ton of other things. Like democracy in America, for starters"
There are no lines to read between. It’s the bold text that we accept that a vote for Dems is a vote for genocide. But given no other plausible alternative, and the enormous risk to a plethora of other issues that Trump represents, voting for less genocide is the best option on the table.
But you are well aware this. You’re just arguing under false pretext to strawman your way to voter disenfranchisement.
Okay, cool. Go ahead and state the case, then, if it’s such an obvious fact. Go ahead and say “I will be voting for a genocidal candidate this election, because that is what my country’s political system forced me to do.”
I will be truly impressed if you actually do it.
Most people find some excuse not to. That’s the problem we have.
It’s the bold text that we accept that a vote for Dems is a vote for genocide. But given no other plausible alternative, and the enormous risk to a plethora of other issues that Trump represents, voting for less genocide is the best option on the table.
I literally bolded it for you this time.
Or if you want me to put in in terms of self:
I support a candidate that supports genocide because they support less genocide than the only other plausible option. Both in Gaza and in Ukraine. And less blatant corruption. And less erosion of rights. And less lynching of minorities. And less open encouragement of domestic terrorism.
There, you got your soundbite. Take the bolded portion and pass it around to your comrads out of context for all I care.
Keep on attacking that imaginary strawman. Lemmy .world connected communities as a whole accept the very obvious reality of what the stakes are. In every political thread, this is spelled out over and over because of you “leftists” trying to disenfranchise Dem voters exclusively.
There are plenty of memes caricaturizing you clowns.
They won’t say it, because this is not the argument they want to have. They are much more comfortable talking about how their candidate is so smart and competent when the fact is their candidate is also a bloodthirsty monster. If they really accept that fact, they can’t go back to pretending they’re voting for “a very serious adult”.
A vote isnt an endorsement. Viewing it as one is a permanent commitment non-voting because even if like Bernie Sanders was being elected people would just say his support of Joe Biden eliminates him from ever being a moral vote.
I would instead say its better to view a vote as strategic tool: its better to deny your enemies a win than let them have one for free. For the Gaza Genocide, I think we can all agree the villain here is Netanyahu and his preference is Trump. A vote for Kamala here may not solve anything, but it does deny Netanyahu additional support he might get.
I’m a leftist. I don’t want you to change whoever you’re voting for, vote what you feel is right.
What I do want you to do is be honest. I believe that the only way we can fix things is to admit the reality of the situation that we’re in.
I want you to admit that you’re voting for a genocidal candidate. Because either way if you’re voting Trump or Harris, you’re voting a genocidal candidate.
Once you can admit that, then we can start thinking about fixing it.
If you’re just going to shove your head in the sand and refuse to acknowledge your complicity in the system, then you are a slave to it.
I have not seen many leftists not agree that both votes are for genocide - that’s just a given.
But protesting the system during the election is daft. Do you want genocide, or more genocide? You are not a slave to the system if you vote and then actually do something about it to change it.
Ignoring the current system is plain ignorance. Voting doesn’t make you a slave. Voting and giving up makes you a slave. How about vote and campaign for change instead. Despair does not lead to change.
Neither have I. I’ve seen hundreds of liberals argue that fact, though. I’ve had comments deleted elsewhere on Lemmy for “misinformation” for stating that Harris is genocidal.
So I apologise for not sharing your hopeful perspective that we can change the system after the election, because your peers refuse to acknowledge that the system needs to be changed. Perhaps you need to be replying to commenters other than me, because you don’t need to persuade me. Persuade THEM. The rest of the democrat-voting public.
There are also some great ways to get written off by the Democratic Party. Frequently not voting or voting third party makes for an unreliable constituency. No politician is going to pay a group that plays hard to get much heed. But for a constituency that turns out and works to turn out others, they’re going to be all ears. There’s a reason causes championed by Black women always feature fairly heavily in the Democratic Party platform. They really punch above their weight.
That breaks down when you consider how long Democrats have been moving to the right in order to appease Republican voters. Republicans aren’t known for consistently voting dem.
Vote this election then. And then campaign after the election. What’s stopping you from being the change later? Why teach the a lesson now, when the alternative is Drumpf?
I already have. How many times do I have to say that I HAVE ALREADY VOTED FOR HARRIS.
Centrists are great at coming up with excuses for why it’s never the time to do what they don’t want to do. There will be a new excuse and a new timetable for when it will be acceptable to say anything in opposition to centrists’ genocide. When that passes, there will be another date and another excuse.
Thanks for voting! I didn’t see it in your OP, and I dont keep track of what Lemmy users say across posts.
Im not a centerist. However there is a time and a place with everything in life. November 6th I’m ready to start promoting a new voting system and changing whats causing this mess.
We just have to do it when we won’t inconvenience them with a changing world and they can go on doing exactly what they are. Preferably so quiet they can forget we exist.
I would argue: Look at the what the people doing the genocide want and vote for their most likely opposition.
Its clear The Heritage Foundation, Netanyahu, Putin, Musk, Thiel etc want Trump to win. I would recommend Voting Kamala on those grounds as denying your enemy a win is far better strategic use of voting as a tool than believing the democrats will ever do the right thing.
Oh for fucks sake. Like an abusive relationship.
“I swear this time it will be different!!”
Who you vote for does not imply who you are in bed with. Unless you like sewing discourse
*sowing
Since I’m not terminally online and I have real conversations with real people in person on this topic, every single person I spoke with regardless of who they were voting for was unhappy with their choices.
this is just incorrect on so many levels.
first off: if you consistently vote for a candidate no matter what they do then they can write you off.
imagine thinking drawing a line at ‘genocide’ is playing hard to get. my god the bar is so low. no wonder we dont have any fucking working class rights. thanks, you definitely know what your doing.
yes. do tell. how exactly have the democrats have targetted black women issues specifically? go on I’ll wait.
The real issue is democrats get funding from the 1% and are unwilling to promote worker rights. that’s why they write off the left base issues. fortunately for them the left has been bolstering them regardless every election for decades despite this because republicans would literally murder people for being different. And that generally continues, even right now with harris.
If you look at the policies from harris’ campaign and compare it to 2016/2020.
seems more corporate friendly than worker friendly to me. then add in a genocide on top and completely dismissing a minority group because they are inconvenient and here we are.
What left wing people are really telling you:
Tim Walz for one has legislated paid leave. If Walz has half the power under Harris’ governing as people seem to believe Harris has under Biden I’d fully expect paid leave out of the Harris Walz admin.
that requires congressional approval. unrelated to harris’ campaign. I’d love to see it passed. I’d love to see harris campaign on it. I doubt we’ll see either.
A lot of what you’re listing off is more a symptom of Harris entering the race so late. She’s barely had the time to put together a campaign, let alone flesh out a real policy platform. That usually takes a long time, especially given that she has to show some level of independence from Biden while also
What type of healthcare reform are you referring to? I don’t think that anything terribly drastic is really going to happen within the foreseeable future. The Democrats burned a 60-40 majority in the Senate just to get the ACA, a relatively modest reform, through Congress. Something like single payer does poll well… until you remind people that there’s no free lunch.
She supports an increase to $15/hour, but that was pretty recent.
I won’t defend her here, she should have the courage to tell her tech allies that she’s not going to topple Kahn.
I’m not exactly sure what this means. The Biden administration has strengthened labor’s hand on the NLRB, which marked a significant difference from the Trump administration. Are you referring to the railroad strike of 2022?
I would be fine if that was what everyone was actually saying, but I hear a lot of people encouraging not voting or voting third party this cycle.
Politicians are trying to paste together a winning coalition. That’s why you’ll see Kamala’s platform roughly representing the center-left, that is a winning platform for a general election. The problem with having a hard line non-mainstream view on something like the Israel-Palestine conflict is that playing hard to get will only get you so far. If your opinion isn’t supported by the majority, it’s very, very hard to get a politician’s support.
😂 none of it is due to her entering late. These are all issues that have been active in past elections they havent gone away we just didnt have a primary.
Overall harris just is a shitty candidate, watch her speak. That’s why shes losing.
Arabs? Silences them at every turn, actively prevents their voices.
Gaza? Immediately drops her law and order routine in favor of a genocide. Funny that. Its almost like shes doesnt have any real policies.
Lgbt+ issues tries to deflect to ‘law and order’ statements. Instead of personally taking a position. Yes currently the law supports things like gender affirming care in prisons. Thats not the same thing as being an ally.
Labor? Nothing to see here either. It’d upset her masters.
I think you’re confusing majority with oligarchies. Most of those policies are majority supported.
Id be open to any number of policies here. Ranging from single payer, to allowing Medicare/aid funding to be applied to state single payer systems. Right now American’s fund 5 different healthcare systems: the VA, federal employees, Medicare, medicaid, private. Add in obama care market places and you have 6. The overhead is absurd. Then add the second order impacts of the 80/20 split from obama care which only encourages insurance companies to pay more for care to increase their profits. Boggles my mind people think obama care was good policy.
Anyways, i can rant for ages on healthcare. You dont really want to start on that road if you think you’ll have an insight that will make harris look good. ;)
Yeah because many states are pushing it on their own anyways. And she doesnt have the support from the party so we wont see it regardless. Its an easy bone with no actual substance behind it. As you’re very well aware at this point. Shes just desperate and unwilling to commit to the actual things she can do. Curious you thought mentioning it would matter. 🧐
Indeed he has, and yes. Essentially my point is harris has no policy positions for labor. She doesnt get credit for biden’s policies, she only gets demerits for not speaking out against the failures. Find me her policy positions on labor. Breaking the train strike was an absolute debacle for the biden admin. And they know it, its why they wouldn’t touch the port strikers so close to the election. Not that they didnt want to mind you. Contrary to common belief most voters do have long memories. They just get encoded as positive or negative. They may not talk about these older issues but they are definitely taken into account.
Yes. As they should if they’re in a blue state. Personally i went third party as well in my +20 blue state. Harris campaign has jack shit for americans besides not trump. She has had plenty of time to put together a positive story for her campaign but she far the best she can muster is: ignore systemic issues in health care by bribing the dying (can they even get to the polls? Im assuming its really targetting their care givers) and a 50k stipend to start a business that I’m sure if i did deeper will have so many hoops that almost no one will get it. Im happy to be blessed that i can give her the middle finger she so rightfully deserves at this point.
Most of what you’re seeing from the left right now on gaza is because all the other issues are not feasible without full democratic support. Kahn/genocide are both things harris absolutely can commit to and enact on her own.
So i ask everyone again: have you called your reps repeatedly in support of gaza? Have you emails harris campaign? The sad reality is most of you think you know how to vote lesser evil and all that but your strategy is essentially guaranteed to fail. Not only will you not get concessions unless you are willing to with hold your vote but you’re behavior towards people who can and do will cause them to be less likely to support your party in the future.
At this point its clear most Harris supporters are more than comfortable with a genocidal candidate. For me, i will continue voting for candidates who represent my interests which currently very few democrats do and withholding it until they do. It usually doesnt take much. Dont be an asshole, have policies that support labor. The fact most Democrats can’t meet this bar is astounding.
I am a reliable d voter. I’m the block you claim they cater to. I’ve voted in literally every election able always for D. Ole reliable. Except a genocide is a step to far. They could win me back and many other reliable Dems if they did one crazy trick…
I 100% agree that this is classic manufactured consent, and there is no real choice in this election.
I also want there to be a real choice in the future. The least we can do in the future is get ranked choice voting and do away with the electoral college. Almost literally the least; those are so bare minimum that they can’t even be called radical.
I sit here with my hand in the sand.
Your reading comprehension is fucking atrocious, then. Even when Biden was the candidate, the vast majority has been saying “ok, continuing to support Isreal as they commit war atrocities is bad, but Trump would be much worse” for Gaza, and a ton of other things. Like democracy in America, for starters"
There are no lines to read between. It’s the bold text that we accept that a vote for Dems is a vote for genocide. But given no other plausible alternative, and the enormous risk to a plethora of other issues that Trump represents, voting for less genocide is the best option on the table.
But you are well aware this. You’re just arguing under false pretext to strawman your way to voter disenfranchisement.
See, we can actually read between lines here.
Okay, cool. Go ahead and state the case, then, if it’s such an obvious fact. Go ahead and say “I will be voting for a genocidal candidate this election, because that is what my country’s political system forced me to do.”
I will be truly impressed if you actually do it.
Most people find some excuse not to. That’s the problem we have.
Jfc.
I literally bolded it for you this time.
Or if you want me to put in in terms of self:
I support a candidate that supports genocide because they support less genocide than the only other plausible option. Both in Gaza and in Ukraine. And less blatant corruption. And less erosion of rights. And less lynching of minorities. And less open encouragement of domestic terrorism.
There, you got your soundbite. Take the bolded portion and pass it around to your comrads out of context for all I care.
Good for you, I am impressed! Now help us convince all the other democrat voters to do the same and we might actually be able to fix this.
Keep on attacking that imaginary strawman. Lemmy .world connected communities as a whole accept the very obvious reality of what the stakes are. In every political thread, this is spelled out over and over because of you “leftists” trying to disenfranchise Dem voters exclusively.
There are plenty of memes caricaturizing you clowns.
https://lemmy.world/post/21329323
“strawman”
They won’t say it, because this is not the argument they want to have. They are much more comfortable talking about how their candidate is so smart and competent when the fact is their candidate is also a bloodthirsty monster. If they really accept that fact, they can’t go back to pretending they’re voting for “a very serious adult”.
A vote isnt an endorsement. Viewing it as one is a permanent commitment non-voting because even if like Bernie Sanders was being elected people would just say his support of Joe Biden eliminates him from ever being a moral vote.
I would instead say its better to view a vote as strategic tool: its better to deny your enemies a win than let them have one for free. For the Gaza Genocide, I think we can all agree the villain here is Netanyahu and his preference is Trump. A vote for Kamala here may not solve anything, but it does deny Netanyahu additional support he might get.