The Supreme Court ruled Friday in favor of an Oregon city that ticketed homeless people for sleeping outside, rejecting arguments that such “anti-camping” ordinances violate the Constitution’s ban on “cruel and unusual” punishment.
Now the root of your objections are shown to be just callous indifference to human suffering. That’s fine, just come out and say you don’t care and can’t be bothered. You want to live in a world of machiavellian justice. Be careful what you ask for as maybe that knife will fall on your head or someone you care about if you are capable of that.
It’s hard to take you seriously when you try to conflate Marxism and religion, the guy that viewed religion as “the soul of soulless conditions” or the “opium of the people”. Or when you intimated that society was structurally fair. In what way is it fair that one person can be born to wealth and privlegde and another to poverty and lack of options? But even beyond the rules of society, there is no fundamental fairness in the universe. Some people get lucky others don’t. Some people are healthy others aren’t. It’s impossible to have any reasonable discussion when the starting point is so fundamentally divorced from reality.
To the contrary, I want the problems of society fixed. I want the quality of life of people to be improved, not out of compassion, but out of duty, and by the concept of improvement, in the most efficient way. Liberals always virtue signaling they care about the poor, and so on, yet look at the environment they created. Singapore has one of the most expensive properties in the world and high inequality, yet they have no homeless people.
Karl Marx was born into a Christian culture, and he was culturally Christian. Did Karl Marx disagree with the Bible in regard to poor versus rich? Christianity is subversive; the poor will prevail over the rich, the downtrodden people will prevail over their oppressors, the fool will win over the wise man. Socialism and communism are as scientific as witchcraft and astrology. They are not economic systems. Life isn’t fair; that is the real world. It is through work, applied knowledge, that you make your state better than before.
We can certainly agree on the desire to improve society. We likely agree that there is a better solution to the homelessness situation than continuing as it is. Starting with a law that criminalizes homelessness is not the right place to start. We should be moving in the direction of cities or counties having to provide a minimum level of services for food, shelter and drug and mental health treatment. When that minimum level of support is available then it may be reasonable to consider laws that criminalize homelessness. You accuse the liberals of virtual signaling but any laws that criminalize homelessness are nothing but. They’ll do nothing to solve the actual problem and are really only intended to assuage people’s conscience and fool them into thinking that they’ve fixed a problem that they can simply no longer see. You profess to want an efficient productive society but then elect for options that are pure fantasy. If the end goal is to jail homeless people I can’t see how that is going to be cheaper than housing them. It makes a lot more sense to build a society that works for all the people, picks them up when they fall and helps them return as productive members. Will there be some people that just can’t be productive members of society? Yes, and we’ll certainly agree that laws and jails are appropriate. In fact we have those laws. It’s already illegal to steal and assault whether your homeless or not. Who is advocating removing those laws? The Marxists? The Christians? With all your arguing you certainly seem to want to live in a rational world but somehow continue to support irrational solutions.
@hapablap@Amoxtli I agree with you partially here. The causes of homelessness should be addressed before it is criminalized.
However, harshly cutting off drug supplies and making it easier for people who, for example, have criminal records, to get jobs, would be a better way to start than building in incentives for people to stay homeless.
You’d be surprised by how many people are literally homeless just because they got hooked on drugs.
What do you mean incentives to stay homeless? Does this include anything that reduces the discomfort of homelessness like food and medical care? I don’t have statistics about the number of homeless that actually choose to be homeless, which sounds like an impossible question to answer because. It seems likely that any homeless person would want an improvement to their lifestyle of some kind. Given the option of becoming a homeless drug addict versus not, what right-minded person would make that choice? It just isn’t a choice. Certainly, once you’re a homeless drug addict it really isn’t a choice anymore. A homeless drug addict can’t just decide not be a homeless drug addict. In fact I’d wager that once you’re a homeless drug addict, if you become housed it’s a lot harder to remain so. If a homeless drug addict becomes clean, it’s a lot harder for them to remain so. Virtually no one would choose that lifestyle. If it is such a great choice then choose it yourself!
> Does this include anything that reduces the discomfort of homelessness like food and medical care?
Food yes, medical care no. To be clear, I’m not opposed to existing support systems and homeless shelters as they exist today, especially since the shelters require people to stay clean IIRC. But we don’t need to be throwing them into the #RitzCarlton, that incentivizes them to stay homeless.
> It seems likely that any homeless person would want an improvement to their lifestyle of some kind.
Drug addicts want one thing: more drugs.
> A homeless drug addict can’t just decide not be a homeless drug addict.
Right, which is why more needs to be done to get drugs off the street.
I know a dude who once was a homeless drug addict who ended up quitting drugs because his parents had him move back in with them in #Africa and the only drug they have there is #weed
Now the root of your objections are shown to be just callous indifference to human suffering. That’s fine, just come out and say you don’t care and can’t be bothered. You want to live in a world of machiavellian justice. Be careful what you ask for as maybe that knife will fall on your head or someone you care about if you are capable of that.
It’s hard to take you seriously when you try to conflate Marxism and religion, the guy that viewed religion as “the soul of soulless conditions” or the “opium of the people”. Or when you intimated that society was structurally fair. In what way is it fair that one person can be born to wealth and privlegde and another to poverty and lack of options? But even beyond the rules of society, there is no fundamental fairness in the universe. Some people get lucky others don’t. Some people are healthy others aren’t. It’s impossible to have any reasonable discussion when the starting point is so fundamentally divorced from reality.
To the contrary, I want the problems of society fixed. I want the quality of life of people to be improved, not out of compassion, but out of duty, and by the concept of improvement, in the most efficient way. Liberals always virtue signaling they care about the poor, and so on, yet look at the environment they created. Singapore has one of the most expensive properties in the world and high inequality, yet they have no homeless people.
Karl Marx was born into a Christian culture, and he was culturally Christian. Did Karl Marx disagree with the Bible in regard to poor versus rich? Christianity is subversive; the poor will prevail over the rich, the downtrodden people will prevail over their oppressors, the fool will win over the wise man. Socialism and communism are as scientific as witchcraft and astrology. They are not economic systems. Life isn’t fair; that is the real world. It is through work, applied knowledge, that you make your state better than before.
We can certainly agree on the desire to improve society. We likely agree that there is a better solution to the homelessness situation than continuing as it is. Starting with a law that criminalizes homelessness is not the right place to start. We should be moving in the direction of cities or counties having to provide a minimum level of services for food, shelter and drug and mental health treatment. When that minimum level of support is available then it may be reasonable to consider laws that criminalize homelessness. You accuse the liberals of virtual signaling but any laws that criminalize homelessness are nothing but. They’ll do nothing to solve the actual problem and are really only intended to assuage people’s conscience and fool them into thinking that they’ve fixed a problem that they can simply no longer see. You profess to want an efficient productive society but then elect for options that are pure fantasy. If the end goal is to jail homeless people I can’t see how that is going to be cheaper than housing them. It makes a lot more sense to build a society that works for all the people, picks them up when they fall and helps them return as productive members. Will there be some people that just can’t be productive members of society? Yes, and we’ll certainly agree that laws and jails are appropriate. In fact we have those laws. It’s already illegal to steal and assault whether your homeless or not. Who is advocating removing those laws? The Marxists? The Christians? With all your arguing you certainly seem to want to live in a rational world but somehow continue to support irrational solutions.
@hapablap @Amoxtli I agree with you partially here. The causes of homelessness should be addressed before it is criminalized.
However, harshly cutting off drug supplies and making it easier for people who, for example, have criminal records, to get jobs, would be a better way to start than building in incentives for people to stay homeless.
You’d be surprised by how many people are literally homeless just because they got hooked on drugs.
What do you mean incentives to stay homeless? Does this include anything that reduces the discomfort of homelessness like food and medical care? I don’t have statistics about the number of homeless that actually choose to be homeless, which sounds like an impossible question to answer because. It seems likely that any homeless person would want an improvement to their lifestyle of some kind. Given the option of becoming a homeless drug addict versus not, what right-minded person would make that choice? It just isn’t a choice. Certainly, once you’re a homeless drug addict it really isn’t a choice anymore. A homeless drug addict can’t just decide not be a homeless drug addict. In fact I’d wager that once you’re a homeless drug addict, if you become housed it’s a lot harder to remain so. If a homeless drug addict becomes clean, it’s a lot harder for them to remain so. Virtually no one would choose that lifestyle. If it is such a great choice then choose it yourself!
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@hapablap
> Does this include anything that reduces the discomfort of homelessness like food and medical care?
Food yes, medical care no. To be clear, I’m not opposed to existing support systems and homeless shelters as they exist today, especially since the shelters require people to stay clean IIRC. But we don’t need to be throwing them into the #RitzCarlton, that incentivizes them to stay homeless.
@hapablap
> It seems likely that any homeless person would want an improvement to their lifestyle of some kind.
Drug addicts want one thing: more drugs.
> A homeless drug addict can’t just decide not be a homeless drug addict.
Right, which is why more needs to be done to get drugs off the street.
I know a dude who once was a homeless drug addict who ended up quitting drugs because his parents had him move back in with them in #Africa and the only drug they have there is #weed