If power remains with the capitalist class, and industry continues to be organized around their whim, you will not achieve meaningful reform, except in response to a threat, which will be taken away when that threat diminishes. FDR didn’t do the New Deal because he was secretly had socialist beliefs despite his family, but because he was old money buying guillotine insurance.
I was clarifying the difference between checking capitalism with socialism, and a socialist economy. You seemed to think socialism cannot be integrated into capitalism. Did my explanation help you understand the difference now?
What you are describing is social democracy, a subset of capitalism. That is not socialism integrated into capitalism, because once again, power remains with the capitalist class.
So you agree that socialization, that is currently in place in capitalist nations, can mitigate the imbalance that capitalism creates? For example: people with more land pay more school taxes, regardless of how many children of theirs attend school.
My point is socializing more industries, like healthcare, would improve the lives of many poor people at the expense of those with more income. Do you see how that redistributes wealth?
My point that you seem to miss is that under capitalism, capitalists only allow such reforms when their power is threatened, and under capitalism, such reforms are removed when the threat is removed.
Do you not see that leaving the capitalists in power tends towards a system that benefits the capitalists at the expense of everyone else?
That every capitalist country has cut away at benefits over the last 30 years?
Why would you fight to leave the capitalists in power?
I want to understand your point. What do you mean by “capitalists allow” and “leaving the capitalist in power” in the assumption of socializing an industry?
Do you refer to the fact that in a direct or indirect way, capitalists influence the governement, so even if something socialized it’s still under capitalist control?
Or something more like the case of Uber and taxis? Where capitalism can provide unfair competition.
Those points are what it comes to my mind with what you say, but I feel like I’m missing something about what you mean, and I’m intrigued.
Redistribution of wealth does not solve the innate problem of a certain class of people having power over another. What it does is temporarilly solve that problem while still leaving room for the owner class to gain more power over the working class.
The only way to prevent massive wealth inequality from occuring is to give the working class the power to control the means of production.
For example, let’s pretend that the taxi industry was completely socialized. A new paradigm that performs a similar function in a more convenient way will come along (Uber, Lyft, etc.) and take back control and then proceed to exploit their workers (ie: classifying them as independent contractors instead of employees, taking massive fee percentages, not being transparent about said fees). Since this new paradigm is more convenient for the consumers, the older, taxi industry is left to essentially rot and become obscelete, while the new, unregulated (or less regulated) one that is not owned by the workers takes over almost completely.
There is also the fight for privitization of already public utilities, or to create new, private utilities. Good examples (in the US) are toll roads and schooling. Toll roads are built by private corporations in order to charge a fee for those who drive on them (obviously). People then come to rely on them, and a public alternative isn’t built due to the existence of the toll road making a public freeway redundant. College has remained private, regardless of the fact that a college degree is equivillent to what a high school degree used to be when it comes to job prospects. There is also a push to privitize public schooling by extremist conservative politicians, like Betsy DeVos.
I understand the benefits and opportunities of pure socialism. I asked your opinion about the current system because I’m aware of the international implications of dismantling our economy in favor of a new one. We are heavily reliant on imports and exports, and I don’t think you’ve really considered what life would be like after the US Dollar deflates from said upset. Unless you want to start eating dent corn, you may want to rethink your ideas as transitional steps toward a common goal.
I’m not advocating for a complete dismantling of the economy, nor am I suggesting that we do not trade with other countries, but instead, I’m advocating for forcing any company who has more than x number of employees to be a worker-owned co-op, Richard Wolff-style.
I am not against social democracy, and I do think that it is a step in the right direction, but I do think that we, as a society, should go that one step further to prevent the regression back to pure capitalism, since social democracy leaves that door open.
If power remains with the capitalist class, and industry continues to be organized around their whim, you will not achieve meaningful reform, except in response to a threat, which will be taken away when that threat diminishes. FDR didn’t do the New Deal because he was secretly had socialist beliefs despite his family, but because he was old money buying guillotine insurance.
I was clarifying the difference between checking capitalism with socialism, and a socialist economy. You seemed to think socialism cannot be integrated into capitalism. Did my explanation help you understand the difference now?
What you are describing is social democracy, a subset of capitalism. That is not socialism integrated into capitalism, because once again, power remains with the capitalist class.
So you agree that socialization, that is currently in place in capitalist nations, can mitigate the imbalance that capitalism creates? For example: people with more land pay more school taxes, regardless of how many children of theirs attend school.
My point is socializing more industries, like healthcare, would improve the lives of many poor people at the expense of those with more income. Do you see how that redistributes wealth?
My point that you seem to miss is that under capitalism, capitalists only allow such reforms when their power is threatened, and under capitalism, such reforms are removed when the threat is removed.
Do you not see that leaving the capitalists in power tends towards a system that benefits the capitalists at the expense of everyone else?
That every capitalist country has cut away at benefits over the last 30 years?
Why would you fight to leave the capitalists in power?
I want to understand your point. What do you mean by “capitalists allow” and “leaving the capitalist in power” in the assumption of socializing an industry?
Do you refer to the fact that in a direct or indirect way, capitalists influence the governement, so even if something socialized it’s still under capitalist control?
Or something more like the case of Uber and taxis? Where capitalism can provide unfair competition.
Those points are what it comes to my mind with what you say, but I feel like I’m missing something about what you mean, and I’m intrigued.
You conflate capitalism and democracy too much to have an intelligent conversation.
Good luck storming the castle!
Don’t condescend when you don’t know basic terms like capitalism or social democracy and its history.
Capitalism and democracy are diametrically opposed, hence why you cannot have meaningful democracy under capitalism.
Do you not see how socializing more industries would aid in the redistribution of wealth?
Redistribution of wealth does not solve the innate problem of a certain class of people having power over another. What it does is temporarilly solve that problem while still leaving room for the owner class to gain more power over the working class.
The only way to prevent massive wealth inequality from occuring is to give the working class the power to control the means of production.
For example, let’s pretend that the taxi industry was completely socialized. A new paradigm that performs a similar function in a more convenient way will come along (Uber, Lyft, etc.) and take back control and then proceed to exploit their workers (ie: classifying them as independent contractors instead of employees, taking massive fee percentages, not being transparent about said fees). Since this new paradigm is more convenient for the consumers, the older, taxi industry is left to essentially rot and become obscelete, while the new, unregulated (or less regulated) one that is not owned by the workers takes over almost completely.
There is also the fight for privitization of already public utilities, or to create new, private utilities. Good examples (in the US) are toll roads and schooling. Toll roads are built by private corporations in order to charge a fee for those who drive on them (obviously). People then come to rely on them, and a public alternative isn’t built due to the existence of the toll road making a public freeway redundant. College has remained private, regardless of the fact that a college degree is equivillent to what a high school degree used to be when it comes to job prospects. There is also a push to privitize public schooling by extremist conservative politicians, like Betsy DeVos.
I understand the benefits and opportunities of pure socialism. I asked your opinion about the current system because I’m aware of the international implications of dismantling our economy in favor of a new one. We are heavily reliant on imports and exports, and I don’t think you’ve really considered what life would be like after the US Dollar deflates from said upset. Unless you want to start eating dent corn, you may want to rethink your ideas as transitional steps toward a common goal.
I’m not advocating for a complete dismantling of the economy, nor am I suggesting that we do not trade with other countries, but instead, I’m advocating for forcing any company who has more than x number of employees to be a worker-owned co-op, Richard Wolff-style.
I am not against social democracy, and I do think that it is a step in the right direction, but I do think that we, as a society, should go that one step further to prevent the regression back to pure capitalism, since social democracy leaves that door open.