cross-posted from: https://lemmy.sdf.org/post/58764195

I was in the non-profit shop of a local charity. They accept donations of used computers then resell them to the public. The profit goes to charity. I asked for their oldest machine. It had an AMD chip from the 16h family. Thus, a spychip.

So their oldest machine was still too new for me. I asked why don’t you have anything older? They said the general public would not accept anything older, and so the shop also does not accept anything older. When machines are rejected, they go to a factory that destroys them and recovers the raw metals.

It’s sad to see that pre-spychip machines are being destroyed and that even 2nd-hand customers are being limited to anti-consumer spychip hardware.

  • Bane_Killgrind@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
    1·
    2 days ago

    The absence of an attack surface is as small as an attack surface gets.

    Yes and the things that these chips process used to be processed on the main CPU, relying on software to prevent malicious access.

    Now the attack surface, which used to be every implementation of every software, is reduced to the implementation of the world separation these chips provide.

    You still aren’t talking about the technology, you are spouting “common sense” nonsense like new chips using single digit watts of power are less efficient than old chips using dozens of watts of power.

    Garbage.

    Edit: again, what is the cutoff? Should they still support procs from 1995? 1990?

    • evenwichtOP
      11·
      2 days ago

      Yes and the things that these chips process used to be processed on the main CPU, relying on software to prevent malicious access.

      Rightfully so.

      Correction to your utter pro-corporate drivel:

      Now the attack surface, which used to be every implementation of every software, is reduced expanded to the unreachable closed-source implementation that makes consumers dependant on a corporate of the world separation with an imbalance of power these chips provide subject consumers to.

      You still aren’t talking about the technology

      The thread was originally about e-waste of technology. Your thread crap has discarded the e-waste discussion, so of course I am talking about technology. This thread branch is about avoiding undisclosed opaque technology with an attack surface we don’t need.

      , you are spouting “common sense” nonsense like new chips using single digit watts of power are less efficient

      The spouting of nonsense comes when you neglect to make a meaningful comparison that actually reveals the waste of the spychip. You can’t hide the spychip’s waste by choosing processors of different effeciencies from different time periods.

      than old chips using dozens of watts of power.

      You missed the link about new machines still using a 2013 pre-spychip because the TDP is 17w. But I guess it hardly matters when you’re trying to make a dishonest comparison anyway to conceal waste.

      Edit: again, what is the cutoff? Should they still support procs from 1995? 1990?

      If it’s a closed-source spychip, it should be supported for as long as the chip maker exists. And when they go under, they should be forced to disclose the source code. If they don’t like that, they should quit making the spychips. If they are ruined and sink because they failed to support their crippled support-needy garbage, then rightfully so.

      If it’s not a spychip, it needs no support from the maker apart from documentation, which should always be available as long as the chip maker exists. And thereafter available on archive.org.

      • Bane_Killgrind@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
        1·
        2 days ago

        different time periods

        Please point to modern processors or SoC available to consumers that does not have these subprocessors. Selling “new” 13 year old processors is fine, but that won’t last forever and technology needs change.

        Again, you are spouting emotional, uninformed garbage. There is no technical definition of attack surface that would classify commingled processing as better than bifurcated processing.

        I honestly believe that you are being paid to post this stuff to sabotage real beneficial collaboration.

        • evenwichtOP
          11·
          2 days ago

          Please point to modern processors or SoC available to consumers that does not have these subprocessors.

          The IBM power 9 is one, but it’s red herring anyway because you’re still looking to weasel out of acknowledging that the only relevent comparison is the same chip with and without an spychip. Looking to other chips is nothing more than a futile attempt to hide the fact that spychip is not wasting energy. I doubt you will find an audience naive enough to buy your nonsense… but if you find them, sell them a bridge.

          technology needs change.

          Not this change.

          Again, you are spouting emotional, uninformed garbage.

          Again, your stance is driven by emotion as you continue to fail to justify your closed-source support-needy garbage.

          There is no technical definition of attack surface that would classify commingled processing as better than bifurcated processing.

          It doesn’t need to. An attack surface definition that attempts classification would be a broken definition by someone attempting shenanigans to hide their attack surface. Someone hoping to bullshit consumers who don’t want extra vulns and then being at the mercy of the corporate supplier’s will to fix.

          I honestly believe that you are being paid to post this stuff to sabotage real beneficial collaboration.

          You can test that theory by actually putting forward an effective logical argument that actually justifies your position. You can only blame yourself for failing to articulate a sensible idea.

          • Bane_Killgrind@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
            1·
            2 days ago

            https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/announcements/services-withdrawal-discontinuance-service-select-power-systems-products-replacements-available

            Power 9 is server hardware, end of life, has been pulled from new sales since 2023 I think, will only provide limited maintenance on a paid basis. This is the same pain point you have about the AMD processor, but a decade more recent.

            After the EOSS effective date, IBM will no longer offer full hardware maintenance service for the following machine types and models. If available, clients will continue to receive limited hardware maintenance service as described in the “Hardware Service Extension” section of your terms with IBM, without lapse in coverage, for the listed machine types and models.

            I’ll give you some credit, and let’s say you mean ASI or RISC processors in general, but some of those use cortex cores and this review for a risc-5 piece concludes that it’s for developers and not consumers in general. https://youtu.be/I4zhkNjhKTA

            That’s on me. I should have said “designed for” instead of “available to”. I set the bar too low.

            So is your expectation the whole market switches to framework laptops with the 3rd party RISC board? That would be great, I would love if that type of modular hardware was standard.

            Your post here, in zerowaste, wanting only the most niche to the exclusion of everything else. Completely bad faith and confirms my suspicions about you.

            • evenwichtOP
              11·
              2 days ago

              You seem to be eating up your own red herring quite well. Your own request for irrelevant information led you to a bizarre rabbit hole about power 9 chips. Only to lead you to another bogus claim:

              will only provide limited maintenance on a paid basis. This is the same pain point you have about the AMD processor, but a decade more recent.

              I never said I opposed paid support. The spychip has many shortcomings, only one of which is the dire need for support due to the black box attack surface. The Power 9 is not a spychip. IBM selling support for a non-spychip does not imply that support is needed by all users. Support can be anything from running a compiler to understanding their docs. I don’t have a problem with IBM offering some kind of support for customers that want a bit of pampering and convenience.

              it’s for developers and not consumers in general.

              This is a red herring within a red herring. The power 9 answered your request for information. What you do with the info is on you. I don’t give a shit what you do with the info, because it’s irrelevant. At least to the extent that you have spoken about it. The only shred of relevency would be that the Power 9 is hardly useful to the same demographic who would use a 2013 pre-spychip, so it fails to counter the thesis that pre-spychips shouldn’t be destroyed. The venn diagram of the two demographics of users would look close to this: OO

              So is your expectation the whole market switches to framework laptops with the 3rd party RISC board?

              No. Why would it be? I expect the existing shitshow to carry on. Most consumers are incompetent. Hence why the enshitified marketplace is a business success.

              • Bane_Killgrind@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
                1·
                1 day ago

                2 comments is a rabbit hole. Wow. I wanted to know what modern options you think actually exist, to make that apples to apples comparison you demanded. And you point to something that’s explicitly EOL. Your only example is non-consumer hardware.

                You

                You can’t hide the spychip’s waste by choosing processors of different effeciencies from different time periods.

                Me

                point to modern processors or SoC available to consumers

                I should have said “designed for” instead of “available to”.

                You are fearmongering about these things when there are no real consumer alternatives, and the impact is imagined. You are expecting a charity to not set reasonable cutoffs for interoperability. Completely asinine. Every new comment from you has histrionic allusions. I hope you are burning tokens responding to my comments.

                • evenwichtOP
                  11·
                  22 hours ago

                  You are fearmongering about these things

                  This is like telling vegans they are fearmongering about harm to the environment and animals. We oppose anti-consumer and oppressive tech, including but not limited to closed-source software. It is not “fear”. It’s driven by values and principles.

                  There is also an infosec demographic who has the wisdom to avoid vulns and tech that strips the consumer of control. We expect to be seen as “paranoid” and “fearful” by infosec-naive folks like yourself. It’s par for the course.

                  when there are no real consumer alternatives,

                  Consumers have choice. Shitty choices. When you advocate for the destruction of pre-spychips, you advocate to eliminate the least shitty choice for freedom-fighting demographics who you frame as “fearful” of corporate boot-licking.

                  You are expecting a charity to not set reasonable cutoffs for interoperability.

                  Nonsense on 3 counts:

                  1. The charity can do whatever the fuck it wants. I merely reported that useful hardware is being destroyed. There are multiple solutions and they don’t all require the charity to support the pre-spychips through their own sales channel.
                  2. It’s /not/ reasonable to let the Microsoft’s support deadlines dictate when hardware (which runs FOSS just fine for years to come) gets tossed.
                  3. There is no such thing as an “interoperability cutoff”. Old PCs are interoperable with old components. New PCs are interoperable with new components. Old PCs are interoperable with some new components. New PCs are interoperable with some old components. There are components that bridge old components to new PCs and components that bridge or adapt new components to old PCs. There is no “cutoff”, at least not for those without Microsoft or Apple loyalty. We don’t have the barriers that peddlers of oppressive tech have brainwashed your corp boot-licking ilk to accept.

                  Completely asinine.

                  Completely asinine to try to pose as a human being and then advocate for oppressive technology (e.g. closed-source s/w), the interests of Micorosft, chip makers, and their shareholders with contempt for zerowaste and non-corporate options. And then expect the free world FOSS crowd to eat your shit by spinning false-FUD propaganda.

                  • Bane_Killgrind@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
                    1·
                    19 hours ago

                    The charity isn’t destroying them, I said YOU should put the work in to maintain them, and your emotionally charged diatribe making accusations and being contrarian completely confirms my indictment of you.

                    You suck.

                    Put the work in to either advertise the alternatives you like or call these things the same words as the rest of us. Making up “spychip” and staying it over and over is opaque and harmful to the conversations you are a part of.