The biggest problem they fall in is constant universalism. Anything that is not pure in content, anything that includes any particular solutions to concrete problems, especially if it deviates from the Idea of Full Communism is deemed as a betrayal of the revolution. (Check out the conceptions of universalism and particularism in Hegel). Just to give an idea, he criticized Stalin for introducting wage-differentiation for different occupations (as in a doctor is paid more than a line worker). This was made to combat flight from factory to factory, in search of better wages and general reluctance to engage in more demanding jobs (as there were little to no incentives in the early collectivization phase). Since SU was trying to industralize heavily and was in need of experts, there had to be incentives for such experts to come to be. Trotsky criticized this as uncommunist, and insisted on keeping the wages the same for EVERYONE, as to build communism here and now, ignoring the reality that existed at that particular historical moment (and aleo because he hated Stalin).
For a mostly US-centric view, you can listen to the WSWS podcast or go to the WSWS website (available in 11 languages). Modern viewpoint on the goals of the 4th International https://www.wsws.org/en?redirect=true
US Centric Understanding of Trotskyists Thought:
I’ve not dived deep into Trotskyism so my understanding is based on interactions with people rather than theoretical texts.
The following aren’t my personal beliefs.
Trotskyists don’t believe in the concept of a labor aristocracy and see all working class people as being roughly equally oppressed around the world. This is usually expressed in a chauvinist form of class reductionism with a lack of understanding of imperialism. This has two major implications that bear out both on a world scale and within the belly of the beast. First, unequal exchange and super exploitation don’t actually exist and that white workers in the US are under the same form of exploitation as workers within the periphery. Second, there’s no settler contradiction within the US and that if there is one then it doesn’t play an antagonist role and that the class contradiction is the primary and only contradiction worth struggling against.
Trotskyists, contrary to the basic tenants of materialist dialectics, don’t believe in the universal characteristic of development progressing in stages. Such as discussed in Mao’s book, “On Contradiction.” This manifests itself as Trotskyists frequently calling for mass general strikes despite there not being any organizational infrastructure or good timing to do so. This also manifests as a call to skip the developmental phase of socialism and to go straight from a capitalist imperialist society to a high level of communism in the form of a “world revolution.”
Historically, and this one is going to be the most divisive and you can check out the stalin era episodes of Proles Pod to hear more, Trotskyists, including Trotsky himself, conspired with Nazi Germany to act as a 5th column within the Soviet Union and conspired with Fascist Japan to act as a 5th column in China. Stalin believed it. Mao believed it. Castro believed it. There’s a huge amount of archival evidence to suggest this. And Trotsky and co were convicted of such in the Soviet Union.
The Trotskyism I’ve encountered irl, on a theoretical level, tries to differentiate itself by strawmanning ideas they deem “Stalinist” such as socialism in one country, essentially.
They have an idealistic conception of the proletariat as the revolutionary class always, and any class collaboration is Stalinism. So their version of internationalism is vaguely hoping the working class of Israel and the working class of Palestine unite, the working class of China overthrows its government, etc. Profoundly undialectical. Brag about having secret trot organizers trying to overthrow China lol
A lot of it comes down to the fact that while Trotsky was intelligent, educated, and driven, he was deeply intellectually dishonest. He’s basically the guy that would win all of his arguments-- after the fact in the shower. Except he’s not venting to himself, he’s bitterly writing and speaking, actively organizing counterrevolutionaries both inside and outside the USSR.
So if your only exposure to Soviet history and Marxist theory is uncritically reading Trotsky (or second/third hand since he formed the foundation of Western sovietology), of course he’s going to seem like the guy with all the right ideas that just unfortunately somehow lost every single time to people who were much stupider.
What’s interesting is I noticed a trend of a handful of trotskyists essentially being MLs without knowing, having reconstructed decent theory through first principals, just without any of the scary terminology of Stalinism. Some sort of theory speciation under the evolutionary pressures of material reality mediated by anticommunism lol
What’s interesting is I noticed a trend of a handful of trotskyists essentially being MLs without knowing, having reconstructed decent theory through first principals, just without any of the scary terminology of Stalinism.
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Permanent Revolution mostly, I think it’s what informs their strong internationalism bent. This is of course in the best case scenarios.
In practice, there are plenty of self-proclaimed Trotskyist groups who haven’t touched a word of theory and platform views Trotsky would’ve definitely disagreed with. For exmple, the man himself understood the utility of supporting anti-imperialist forces even if those forces were not socialist or even right wing, as seen by his views on KMT. Today, there are Trotskyist groups who uphold imperialist friendly views on Venezuala, Russia, Iran, Palestine, and even China and Cuba.
In totality, Trotskyists can certainly be genuine communists that contribute positively to the movement. But in the majority of cases, I’d encourage healthy skepiticism toward such groups. Imperialism is the litmus test here as always, and they will fail it more often than not.
Summarizing this video here
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wqhc--SWIE8
Trotsky’s formulation of the dictatorship of the proletariat is that it’s purely comprised of the proletariat, and in Russia, its numbers are insufficient. So to succeed in building socialism, it would need help from the proletariat in other countries. Hence, world revolution.
This is contrast to Lenin’s formulation of the dictatorship of the proletariat, which was an alliance mainly between the peasantry and the proletariat to defeat capitalism (hence hammer and sickle) but also includes other classes.
So, we know in hindsight that Trotsky was wrong because the revolution in Germany didn’t succeed.
This video put me onto Dr. Rahman and his Marxism lecture series. I’m on lecture 8 and I highly recommend it. It takes the lens of philosophy (as opposed to history, economics, or sociology), but is very approachable for someone who lacks a strong background in philosophy like myself.
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
Running newspapers and complaning about Stalinism.
They believe that there’s no true revolution. They’re waiting to revival of Trotsky or regen Trotsky. Other than that, They’re just spamming the trotslop.
Oboi here we go
Labor Aristocracy.
I have been thinking alot about this lately. They’ve been one of the groups most willing to talk to me about what they believe in. They believe socialism can’t exist in only one country, that makes them one of the most of international groups out there. They also believe in permanent revolution.
Long explanation of my thoughts on them
DSA tells me it’s just a big umbrella party that wants to bring all the little parties together and has a history of associations with CIA and other plants that they seem to be actively trying to work past. It might be possible for them to return to a socialistic revolutionary stance, but anyone can see that they like the rest of the liberals could just as easily turn fascist. They are not an international organization. I could say more about them but the question was about Trotskyies.
I don’t really know enough about CPUSA to talk about them beyond that they seem to limit their focus to the USA. They are also much smaller than the DSA but suffer from many of the same problems with infiltration. They painted a big target on their back.
PSL also seems pretty US focused. They are kinda new on the scene, however they seem to be doing good work.
All things considered I think the Trotskyies are one of the most principled and industrious socialists groups out there. They seem to be the ones most likely to invite you to their book club, and help you learn about socialist history, just remember all history is propaganda. Please understand the critique below relates to one of the most active groups of Trotskyies I’ve been talking to of late, it is not representative of all Trotskyies.
The Trouble with Trotskyies
- One of the most striking things they seem to believe is that Stalin betrayed the revolution. They’ll even go so far as to call Stalin a liberal. I would argue that while definitely made a number of serious mistakes, he did not betray the ideals of the revolutions. While I can believe Trotsky called Stalin a liberal, it’s hard for me to imagine anyone else doing so.
Capital still had an iron grip on the world, Trotsky wanted to fight the revolution in every country but the Soviet Union didn’t have the resources for that at the time. They gave support to the revolution in China, I saw an episode of faith makes great about that. Cuba had support from the Soviet Union as well. I’m still studying this part of my socialist history though, any corrections and or expansions would be appreciated.
- This group seemed to be trying to convince me that all governments were capitalist. Even countries like China, Cuba, Vietnam, and North Korean were complicit in the reproduction of capitalism. The argument went something like there are billionaires in China so the CPC is propagating capitalism, never mind that billionaires are punished in China when they act against the public good.
This argument makes me wonder if they have lost sight of dialectal materialism. Some people are greedy and intelligent enough to find loop holes that allow them to build wealth in ways not controllable by the government. It takes time to figure out how to manage a prosperous system in way that limits inequality. The goal of socialism isn’t to make everyone poor. I haven’t seen much evidence that Tencent, BYD, or any other large cooperation in China is even capable of pressuring their government. Government officials that take any sort of bribe are severely punished. That limits the influence that capitalists can have on the government. The government is also the most effective institution that humanity has used to redistribute wealth (outside of maybe the church but I don’t think I need to go into the problems with that) that we have currently been able to utilize. My point you can’t build socialism without a strong government.
- This group also attacks people for criticizing Abraham Lincoln.
It’s amazing that all people seem to remember about Lincoln is that he freed the slaves by sign the emancipation proclamation. He is responsible for the largest mass execution of Native Americans in US history, and that says alot. Most states in the north had already abolished slavery by the time he became president. That was done by workers and slaves banding together to improve labor conditions. The bill Lincoln deserves no more credit for freeing the slaves than Bush deserves for same sex marriage, or Richard Nixon deserves for establishing the epa. Defending Lincoln to that extent reeks of great man theory and disrespect to the workers.
Why Bother with Trotskyies
- They tend to be the most international.
I’m not sure there are chapters for any of the other socialists organizations that are in my area in other countries. I know that the PSL, and probably others send support to places like Cuba. However that is very different from actually having members in other countries.
- Their organizations are far more experienced and battle harden than any other group I know of.
These people have a recorded history going back nearly century of supporting unions, building unions, and standing up for the working class. They know how to do what needs to be done to get the job done. Trotsky did lead the red army.
- Despite my complaints about some of their rhetoric, they are extremely principled.
All of the Trotskies I’ve met have been extremely willing to listen to my complaints. They have every reason to be suspicious of other socialists organizations, they’ll ready to fight anyone at the first sign of corruption. Doesn’t matter if it’s corrupt union leaders or politicians. That corruption should be called out, though I think they’d get more mileage out of doing it abit more tactfully.
I would like to see Trotskies stop calling the rest of Stalinist, and help the rest of us start building the socialist revolution of the 21st before capitalism drives our species to extinction. I haven’t been able to stop thinking about this for months. Maybe that’s just me. Thanks for reading my mad ramblings.
Good for you. All of the trots I met were highly chauvinistic, even racist in some instance, pseudo-intellectuals who just refused to acknowledge that the workers of the Imperial core enjoy the superprofits generated by the workers of the Global South. They simply didn’t believe in the theory if Unequal Exchange under imperialism.
Oppression in the global south decreases the wages and employability of workers in the imperial core. I’ve definitely observed some chauvinism in the literature they propagate, however I am of the opinion, that is something they need to work on. Unequal exchange hurts all workers, while to unimaginable lesser extent those in the imperial core, they are still harmed by it. Focusing on the harm unequal exchange brings to workers of the imperial core, can allow them to become powerful allies.
That would require them to stop screaming ‘Stalinist’ at everyone who points out this unequal exchange.
Yeah, they need to understand that is chauvinist. They need to start calling out their thought leaders who do that or they will become what they fear the most.
PSL is part of the International People’s Assembly and emphasizes internationalism in their political analysis and function.
I wasn’t aware of their affiliation with the international people’s assembly, but that’s awesome. The group near me does emphasize internationalism, I’m glad they are more well connected than I thought. Relatively speaking they are kinda new, but their takes seem exceedingly principled.
The PSL is a nonprofit run by Brian Becker that has wide-ranging links throughout the alternative media including the Larouche people for some fucking reason, that sheepdogs erstwhile antiimperialists into posting competitively on Twitter (don’t look at me like that, I’m in recovery, I’m growing) and marching around with democrats & the DSA while they act as protest marshals (police collaborators), which is important, because they need to recruit those people to do exactly the same thing. National has a tenuous relationship to the new recruits because they actually want to do base building. This is either them turning his nonprofit into the DSA or the fabled “actually doing something” that PSL believers have alluded will occur whenever I voice criticisms of the group for years. Would love to find out which now that there is action. Found out about some of the hidden organizational barriers to said actually doing something. Could elaborate, show receipts, but I don’t want to get into another shitstorm online today.
Rather than trying to find common ground with people who want a return to the welfare policies they have no leverage to keep (they already lost them & it’s been stagnant for decades), rent control, & minimim wage increases. These are brittle attempts to rebuild the scaffolding US workers use to reach the asset market with their superwages now being counteracted by the bloated economic rents they are forced to pay to prop up asset inflation they want to take part in, maybe people should be thinking about the end of this asset market & what it means to organize in a nation without any productive economy, expecting undercosted inputs to flow in from the periphery forever. I mean, look at the situation with Iran. You all have some more of those Known Unknowns in your future. Could be bumpy.
PSL member digital blank stares I get from these comments can’t be entirely them worrying about their messages being under review. They aren’t anticipating this. They barely even know who Becker is.
What is your point? Im not a PSL supporter, i barely know anything about them and i am not from the usa. But, all this sounds like cherrypicking rather than solid criticism.
The point is the PSL is not an internationalist organization or even pursuing the party form of socialism. Throwing joint fundraisers with Cornell West (BROTHER SANDERS!!! HEIL HITLER!!) & Jill Stein (NO NUCLEAR POWER!! 😠 ONLY DEGROWTH) is not secretly based Lenin strategy or whatever the fuck Becker is telling these peopl
No, key figures in organizations, hundreds, all promoting & funding each other is not cherrypicking. It’s just with every key I press I question why I bother to relay this information to people who have always been rude to me.
Maybe you should all just have what happened to the German succdems befall you(edit: okay that’s not true I like the posts), if you love veterans & small business owners so much & think you can use the legal system to protect yourselves, if not any of the prisoners these orgs represent. When is Mumia gonna be free btw?I mean, old school CIA never made their money-laundering computer-having researcher-proof. It was designed for evasion at the speed of paperwork at a desk. People just got really really fucking lazy
It’s just with every key I press I question why I bother to relay this information to people who have always been rude to me
I apologize for the rudness, i promise it wasnt my intention. And i remember you posting a few days ago about the Deprogram condemning “Russia regional dominance” and im actually grateful about you sharing that.
is not secretly based Lenin strategy or whatever the fuck Becker is telling these peopl
It does looks like an acceptable strategy to me but again, im barely knowledgeable about them and im struggleling to see how they are really bad.
Maybe you should all just have what happened to the German succdems befall you, if you love veterans & small business owners so much & think you can use the legal system to protect yourselves
Im not a socdem and i hate usa veterans and i dont like small business and im not from the usa
old school CIA never made their money-laundering computer-having researcher-proof
I actually have no clue what you mean by this
Nah you weren’t rude, I’m not being clear enough, I’m talking about the way these people act on here whenever it gets brought up, I mean Axolotl just responded to USU when it was posted the other day by making fun of them, didn’t even address any of the points in the article. You literally get mass shunned around here because there really is no left to converse with other than a smattering of blogs and these nonprofit organizations (unless you like Twitch and Youtuber fandom cults) that just end up funneling people into the democratic party. (Cornell West IS A DEMOCRAT, the No Kings rally is a DEMOCRAT EVENT, what are we talking about lol?)
I wouldn’t say I’m actually like, angry with people, but it is a bit surprising that they say shit like “even if this is all true they’re still the best we got :)” and “still voting for whoever they run!!”
Completely submental & repulsively dismissive of any motivations people have for talking about this stuff other than “ur jealous of our sweet party” like no you’re (I mean they’re sorry, see this is the problem) going to be killed you are using liberal protest strategies mapped out by CIA archdemon Gene Sharpe, handpicked by Henry Kissinger, who was still speaking at PSL/ANSWER events in 2012.
Is it cherrypicking or is the apex of their organizing strategy being to bring together clueless MLs with liberals and even libertarians, or run a candidate who never wins kinda concerning?
The overall goal of the western left is to lubricate their accession to the asset market. That’s not stable. Look at the world lmao
I actually have no clue what you mean by this
It takes a while for people to go through transactions and identify a money laundering network. They didn’t have spreadsheet software! So, now we can go back & look at all the from groups the WWP created & trace them to the present day. Lot of it comes from the HUAC lashing out at exposing their own informants lol, shades of MAGA
I’m surprised you would be taken aback by that in particular. I recommend doing some deeper reading on the cold war
My advice to everyone outside America is disregard these people. They are only there to distract you
EDIT: this one is still too cranky. Okay new rule I don’t spike anyone’s blood pressure. Challenging. Builder mindset™
now we can go back & look at all the from groups the WWP created & trace them to the present day. Lot of it comes from the HUAC lashing out at exposing their own informants lol
Not too big on the PSL myself, I’m nonetheless curious. Does this mean you’re saying they’re a plant organisation that exists to funnel revolutionary momentum back into supporting the status quo? I wouldn’t put it past the states, I’d nonetheless ask for any sources on this statement.
I mean, if the PSL is actually a stagnant failure on the whole (or even a conscious capture group), then that’s what it is, but this way of talking about it loses me very easily. I still don’t know quite what the case being made against PSL is, other than it not being socialist enough or something and having stagnant protest tactics. Sometimes working with others who aren’t socialist doesn’t automatically mean you’re not one now. Tenuous alluding to connections between things doesn’t exactly make for a solid takedown.
I’m not trying to be mean when I say this. It’s just, I try to be open-minded about these things, but it’s hard to take the criticisms seriously in the form you are presenting them. If we said that having the wrong connections taints you, then China engaging with israel at all would mean they’ve ceased to be run by communists. Of course in China’s case, we can point to other things to show that it’s actually doing communist practice on the whole. If PSL has nothing to show for what it’s doing other than some taglines, that’s not a great sign.
Every institution has critics and attempts at socialism/communism in the west can very easily get vilified from both directions. From the “right” saying they are evil even if they’re a bunch of reformists and from the “left” saying they’re a bunch of reformists / inadequate / etc. It’s important for people to be able to tell if a criticism is legitimate and a party is actually something to stay away from, or if the situation of parties as a whole is so bad that it’d be worth more trying to be Lenin yourself, as opposed to if it’s simply that a party is flawed and it’s more a disagreement over strategy than it is ideological failure. What became the USSR was far from a single homogeneous bloc in constant agreement and even after consolidating power, they still had to deal with threats both inside and outside.
So I am asking you to consider it from this perspective, that there is a we, and that we need to know what we’re up against and working with. Not with passing high octane hits, but with a thorough understanding of the situation. As annoying as that can be sometimes to go through. People need to have something they can fight for and believe in. This means if the seeming “best there is” is overall not very good, people are still going to be inclined to make excuses for it because they don’t have an alternative. They need to know what to do, not just what not to do.
I agree that sticking to pointing out connections is by far the least effective way I can go about it. The patterns of sheepdog strategies across the linked orgs are suspicious, but this leaves people open to the impression they can overwhelm these orgs regardless of their structure & create something positive out of them. That’s what people would say whenever I made the case these were part of the CIA’s portfolio before I had much of a grasp of Marxism-Leninism.
Key issues we will get into, once I finish rewriting old pieces, which I have decided to do next since it seems like good timing:
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form of organizing (not comparing recruitment messaging)
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misrepresentation of US’s dependency relationships with other countries, particularly other members of the imperial core & subimperialists (let’s not repeat the mistakes of the 2nd international)
It’s been quite a long time, & nobody else has brought this up for me to passively cheer them on. I should have done it before the war started. Main people who talk about this network are just hypervigilant, clearly no idea what the party form of socialism even is.
The reasoning for putting it off (need to stare at wife, need money, need money, more money, need to go to China again, need to go on a nice walk, oh look a squirrel, people were mean to me so they should be duped by reactionaries & go die) has no weight versus the prospect of moving up the historical recognition of the alt media - social media system or whatever we call it by, idk, five years? Who knows when it will be understood. Maybe it really requires luck to figure out
It seems to me the only part of, say, Prof. Gabriel Rockhill’s criticism of the western left people have metabolized is a caricatured version where we are wary solely of people who explicitly condemn AES countries!! I think if the Zohran Mamdani types could keep it in their pants a little better with the Google Uyghurs stuff they would be more effective sheepdogs. Shit is offputting
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ic ic
Those don’t sound like the Trotskyies in my neighborhood.
tyvm! ^^
