I’m not asking this to bait you. It’s not a trick question. I genuinely want to know.
Biden himself has stated multiple times that he wants to “reach across the aisle” (his exact words) and work with Republicans. You know, the same Republicans that are banning abortion and LGBTQ+ people? The same Republican party that has literal white supremacists in its political ranks? I earnestly want to know why you still back a party that openly wants to work with fascists.
The only answer I’ve ever seen liberals give is that the Republicans are worse… and they are, yeah, but if your choices are pure evil, and the guy who works with pure evil, doesn’t that suggest that both of them should be opposed? And as we’ve seen, a democratic government won’t fight to protect marginalized groups from the bigoted laws the Republicans are passing, so even voting for them to protect those groups from fascism just isn’t working.
And what do you make of Biden telling his wealthy donors that “nothing will fundamentally change.” and Biden boasting about the economy while rent skyrockets people live out of their cars and struggle to feed themselves? How can you call yourself a leftist or a even progressive if you stand by that?
Again, I’m not saying these things to be abrasive, I genuinely want an honest answer.
I don’t live in America, but both parties there seem to be terrible and support the status quo. The outcome of the two party system is that people vote for Biden because he’s not Trump, rather than him being the best candidate.
correct but in our system the only candidates are people that Lockheed Martin thinks will buy missiles
I would like to respond to this but I am drunk and need to go to sleep so I will try to give a serious answer tomorrow.
(I’m leaving this comment more for myself than others. My “save post” feature has never seemed to work…)
I don’t think anyone that considers themselves leftist supports Biden. I’d love to have a chance to primary him out, but that’s not a choice we get. We unfortunately have to make concessions because what other choice do we really have? Let’s say a true leftist ran alongside Biden and Trump in 2020. Trump would have won and we’d be further screwed.
But really, let me ask you this, how would you oppose both Dems and GOPs without just handing control over to the Right? The majority of the US leans left, but the Reps are the biggest party. If we fragment because the best-chance candidate isn’t left enough, then the country will be controlled by the GOP.
I mean the other alternative is a full blown revolution, but who’s going to strike the first blow there?
We unfortunately have to make concessions because what other choice do we really have?
Organizing and supporting revolutionary communists, maybe?
Are we really so whipped by capitalism in the west that we can’t even imagine standing up to our own corrupt government?
But really, let me ask you this, how would you oppose both Dems and GOPs without just handing control over to the Right?
Again, by organizing and supporting revolutionary communists.
The majority of the US leans left
I wish. How many Americans even belong to a union? How many even call themselves communists?
how would you oppose both Dems and GOPs without just handing control over to the Right?
Hold on a second, what do you mean here? The Democratic Party and the Republican Party are both right-wing parties. The US has always been a far-right country. When, exactly, was it not?
It’s immaterial which party is in power, they are all funded by the capitalist class and the work of the capitalist class is carried on regardless.
You don’t have a choice in what happens. None
I guess the main clarifying question I have is, what do you mean by “stand by” the democrats? It sounds like a serious committal of time and resources and full throated support when you say it, but that’d be a vast overstatement of my “support”.
When it comes to the national scale, two-party, first-past-the-post shitshow that we have, who else am I gonna vote for? In a very real application of game theory, it seems necessary to slow the pace of societal regression. “A fascist voted today, did you?” is a phrase I came across at some point that resonated with me, and whenever I talk to someone who is apathetic about voting it seems effective in getting them to involve themselves at the bare-minimum level of our democracy.
When it comes to primaries and state/local stuff, I vote as left as I can. Bernie, Chesa Boudin, Shahid Buttar, etc (I am in San Francisco). I’ve voted against Nancy Pelosi and Diane Feinstein every election since I moved here 12 years ago - not that it does any good, their name recognition is off the charts.
Ultimately I think we need to get our elections fixed with a myriad of improvements: ranked choice (or whatever, just not fptp), automatic registration, universal vote-by-mail, replace election “day” with election week or month, mandatory voting, and better districting to mitigate gerrymandering. I believe this will enable more variety in candidates and parties, and actually have a chance to break free of the two-party system. And of course I recognize that will happen slowly, usually at a municipality level, though gains are being made in most of these categories at State level around the country.
I know there is probably a response coming, about how electoral politics is ineffective. I don’t really have a counter to that except that I disagree with the usual alternative presented (… armed rebellion).
Happy to expound on any of what I’ve said or try to respond to aspects of the question I’ve probably missed.
And, once we agree on how we’re defining “stand by” a party or individual, I can try to give my perspective on that too.
Cheers
I don’t think my question was so much for you, as you don’t seem like the type to totally defend the Dems and Biden, but thanks for answering anyway.
When it comes to the national scale, two-party, first-past-the-post shitshow that we have, who else am I gonna vote for?
That’s the problem. What we have is flawed and corrupt. If you have to ask “Who else am I going to vote for?” then you need to start organizing and supporting leftist organizations and revolutionary communists, my friend.
“A fascist voted today, did you?” is a phrase I came across at some point that resonated with me, and whenever I talk to someone who is apathetic about voting it seems effective in getting them to involve themselves at the bare-minimum level of our democracy.
Understandable, but again, a fascist has voting power in a fascist system, we do not. Getting involved with democracy only works if you have a people’s democracy, not an oligarchy decided by the capitalist donor class. You can see for yourself that even getting student loans forgiven is being easily stopped by unelected loan companies stepping in and threatening to sue. How is that democratic?
When it comes to primaries and state/local stuff, I vote as left as I can. Bernie, Chesa Boudin, Shahid Buttar, etc
None of these people are left. None of them want to abolish capitalism. Like, I get you’re trying to vote as left as possible. But the system will never let these people win. As we saw with the smear campaign against people like Bernie (and Corbin for a UK example) as soon as they got popular. That’s not me trying to be defeatist, that’s just the reality of the situation, and if we continue to try to fix things that way we’re going to be stuck butting our heads against a wall while the planet burns. Hell, even if those ‘left as possible’ candidates do get popular they aren’t allowed to win. Bernie was exceedingly popular during the 2020 primaries. To put it in perspective, people outside of the US knew who he was, none of them knew who Biden was. Was anyone passionate about Biden other than the donor class? No, yet he suddenly beats everyone else? Even Warren was more popular than him. But the oligarchs decide, not us.
not that it does any good, their name recognition is off the charts.
Exactly, if the ruling wealthy donor class wants someone to win, these are the people that will get the most advertising and donor support and those are the people who will win. And like I said, even if a grassroots movement does get popular, even the mildest leftist won’t be allowed to win.
Ultimately I think we need to get our elections fixed with a myriad of improvements: ranked choice (or whatever, just not fptp), automatic registration, universal vote-by-mail, replace election “day” with election week or month, mandatory voting, and better districting to mitigate gerrymandering.
That will never happen in America. They won’t allow it. Even in countries that do have it, like mine, it doesn’t change anything. Western capitalist democracies are simply corrupt. I mean, vote all you want, but understand that without organizing against the system, nothing will fundamentally change.
I don’t think my question was so much for you, as you don’t seem like the type to totally defend the Dems and Biden, but thanks for answering anyway.
Fair enough – I definitely feel called out by some hexbear content that I see (posts, comments from users) so figured I might also be the type that this was directed at, but if not, … great? :)
For most of the rest of what you wrote, I think the viewpoint you’re presenting is a more strongly worded but can’t really say I disagree in a way that’s worth debating. Though I am not so pessimistic to agree that it is completely unchangeable from within, just that it is slow going.
The only substantive point I feel I can continue meaningful discussion with is in regards to this:
then you need to start organizing and supporting leftist organizations and revolutionary communists, my friend.
This is a common refrain I see in these discussions (even specifically in other comments in this thread) and I really don’t know what to make of it. It seems to be encouraging one of two things:
- join a local milquetoast group which has meetings, sometimes stages protests, maybe someday runs a candidate in an election if they get enough support?, but otherwise does not effect any change
- join a local militia group that is totally off the books that it literally preparing for armed revolution – but if it ever came, they’d be crushed by some level of the vastly more powerful state violence organizations (whichever they may be).
But the end result of either seems the same on a larger societal level, i.e. nil – and so the effect such advice has on me are slim to none since there doesn’t seem to be a point. Am I misinterpreting? What actual change can come of such recommendation?
This is a common refrain I see in these discussions (even specifically in other comments in this thread) and I really don’t know what to make of it. It seems to be encouraging one of two things:
I think there’s a third option: a group that actually does meaningful outreach that improves the material conditions of your community. What exactly that’s going to look like (or what specific group it will be) depends a lot on where you are. Food Not Bombs is one that’s pretty easy to recommend to just about anyone, as they have a presence in lots of places and do really great work that goes beyond performative protest (which, as you say, doesn’t really amount to much), but there are other options. Community organizing, union organizing work, LGBT advocacy/support, and other things like that are really great choices. Anarchists talk about the importance of building “dual power” structures, in which we come together to meet the material needs of the community when the entrenched power structures (like the government and private organizations) either can’t or won’t meet those needs. That’s truly revolutionary action, and it’s also the best sort of outreach and recruitment you could possibly do. Nobody pays much attention to people unobtrusively marching around with signs, but everyone is going to remember who fed them when they were hungry.
I do agree that it is a meaningful action with greater real impact than the other two strawman examples I mentioned. But I’d clarify that though it is compatible with “support leftist organizations and revolutionary communists” – it is not nearly as ideological and instead more practical, with a broader base of people engaged in and supporting their goals without rallying around a specific ideology which they may feel is alienating.
It’s not like non-leftists participating in these groups were tricked – they legitimately believe in and support these causes too. In the other direction, these types of groups that you mentioned aren’t going to “abolish capitalism” either (to borrow the phrase from OP’s comment), and likely don’t even have that as a stated goal even if some of their members might want to.
That’s truly revolutionary action
I understand your equating practical/real communal efforts with revolutionary action in an increasingly individualistic society, but surely it falls a little short of the usual rhetoric I see in hexbear content (posts, comments from users)? I mean, if that’s what folks mean when they use “revolutionary” language then that’s great. My feel is that it is usually meant more literally (i.e., armed conflict or other violence). I definitely don’t think “oh yea they’re suggesting I go help out at the homeless outreach center”. But hell, maybe I know more communists than I thought ;)
I mean, some of what you’re seeing on Hexbear is deliberately over the top performative
rhetoric. There are a lot of people who think that armed conflict is inevitable (or even to be desired), but there are also a lot of people who see community organizing and actually helping their fellow humans as equally important. We tend to play up the violence stuff for laughs (and as a way of pushing back against civility culture), but my impression is that there are lots of us who are genuinely out there trying to make the world a better place.But hell, maybe I know more communists than I thought ;)
This is almost certainly true, even if they don’t know it themselves. See David Graeber’s “Are You an Anarchist? The Answer May Surprise You!”
Yea I totally get that performative aspect, and I appreciate it even if I haven’t developed the sense to differentiate it all the time. I’m working on it, I know more exposure will help. Lol
