Hmmm. I think it is potentially very off-putting to use phrases like “you’re angry at…”, and "you’ve been taught…’ It smacks of us telling them what they think and has that very quality of knowingness that these folks find such a turn off. I think we could turn to cult de programmers for advice on how to approach them
Personally I’d rather the popular left stops constantly bowing and scraping to these asshats for the slimmest opportunity to drag them kicking and screaming into the 21st century while they resist at every opportunity and instead focuses on building bridges with like minded people who don’t have to be convinced that black people and trans women are human. We are long past the point where that was viable.
MAGA is constantly treated as if they’re lost little lambs with no agency of their own and just have to be convinced into doing the right thing as if they didn’t make those choices themselves with their whole chest. They watched a billionaire do a Nazi salute on live television and they cheered for him. They have told us what they are. Believe them.
We tried. They didn’t want to know. Fuck them.
It doesn’t matter what we’d rather. We need them.
Who’s “we”? They want people like me dead.
The right-wing media has killed two birds with one stone. Using woke they’ve simultaneously kept the Right frothing at their mouth and kept the Left distracted fighting fights that are utterly meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
The left likes to fight about definitions and distinctions. Rather than trying to unite under the lowest common denominators - which we all generally agree on. However, modern upbringing incentivizes being a statue.
You are good in your lack of action, because all actions have negative reactions. So by doing nothing, you are morally correct by guarantee. So how can the status quo change?
Personally I want to identify the lowest common denominators. Then again what human hasn’t. What is evil? What is good?
In capitalism, it has been hard to find what truly sparked the instability. Greed is always blamed but greed is a basic human necesity for survival, it itself cannot inherently be evil.
So I have determined oil once more, for what other shape shifter enters your home, vehicle, and body? Darkness beyond that of the abyss, yet it comes in every color and form.
Final Fantasy 7 and X-Files did amazing at representing this. Global warming, microplastics, pollution, smog, etc. It’s all covered.
Wait. What? You’re saying the problem is…oil? Like, the reason for the current state of affairs in this country - and a few others…?
America has a stereotype of invading other countries over what?
Yes, it is a crutch abused. It essentially sped up the process of capitalism by facilatating printing. While also being useful for fuel and other fun experiments.
Plastic, a synthetic material is actively replacing lots of things we would make of organic resources. However by using plastic they can reach wider margins, lower travel costs and make products shittier.
It was a huge convenience for equating the quality of life disparity however, in my opinion, this is where life turned. It used to be a tool for light and other miscellaneous properties. However it has grown, molded, and shown how horrifying it can be with human assistance. It is why there’s little plastic particulate in our bloodstream now. Where will it go?
Money is governed by oil.
So in turn, oil controls you.
You are wrong about greed. Greed is learned behavior and is not intrinsic to real human nature. Capitalism is not natural and is what has accelerated this greedy need in human society because our very existence is predicated upon it. Take away capitalism and instill an egalitarian system, and greed would disappear.
No, greed is intrinsict to nature. Everything that is alive is fighting to survive and take from others to provide for itself.
You talk purely hypothetical, because it is in no way feasible to just swap out the circumstances. We have to progress to such a goal. In the time you reach your goal, life has moved on to better things.
It is beneficial and convenient for humans to be able to convert their work hours into transactional value. However currency itself is a flawed concept that constantly needs spdculation to be absolute. It’s why AI is a danger, it can observe the speculative price of things and update them in real time.
I think the bigger issue is that corporations are replacing families intentionally.
This is really well written. Thanks for sharing.
Sadly, the writer of that post forgets to consider that many MAGA already know these things and they do not care. They’ve wanted someone to hate and discriminate against all thier lives. They can’t pick blacks openly because the retaliation is real. News are also a hard target in modern times (for now). So MAGA picked a much smaller percentage of the population as a test run. They just need someone to hate.
I wrote a WoT, but had to strip it down to this.
Republicans have been offered everything. They obstinately and willfully reject any overtures or policy that could aid them. Reductionist, low-effort logic combining ideological and religious identity that offers the perception of control over their lives and yet the strings are pulled by the wealthy.
We can offer the common Republican everything, even control, and they will take it and set their opponents on fire with it. Just like they’re doing now. The only hope is to cut the head(s) off the snake. Otherwise they’ll just continue throwing good money after bad. They’re too invested to change.
I think a lot of people overemphasize the importance of converting a MAGA enthusiast into an ally. Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for accepting people who recognize the error of their ways. But there’s realistically not much return to be had there. The important conversions are:
- Low-information Trump voters/casual supporters -> Anti-Trump
It’s estimated that around 25% of people who voted for Trump in 2024 fall into this category. People who voted for Trump but don’t consider themselves MAGA. These are the “price of eggs” voters. Maybe some gen z bros who wanted their crypto to go up and got convinced by right coded pod casters that Trump wasn’t a monster. We want to convert them into voters that vote against MAGA or stay home.
- Anti-Trump observers -> Anti-Trump activists
All movements have people who are ideologically aligned but do not actively participate. It’s no small thing for someone to decide that they want or need to take an active role.
- People who didn’t vote -> Anti-trump voters
In a recent poll, 89% of people who didn’t vote said they disapproved of Trump’s job performance. The way to overcome their apathy and get them out to vote is to support candidates with progressive agendas that they feel will have a material impact on improving their lives. The “hey, at least we’re better than those assholes” strategy might win Dems some races in the short term but long term success means actually bringing about positive economic change. This also means tapping into anti-establishment feelings that run deep within society.
All the arguments in the OP are true and are worth stating. They will help people with lower exposure to politics see the forest for the trees. However no one drinking the MAGA kool-aid is gonna say “Yeah this lib who is talking down to me, they’re right and everything I believe is wrong”.
So many democrats don’t understand how someone could possibly be stupid/blind enough to vote for Trump.
If those same people were switched at birth with the Republicans they look down on them they would probably be voting Republican.
It is always worth trying to understand where other people are coming from. If you didn’t have the education that you got, if you were raised in the environment they were raised in and heard the messages they heard and suffered through whatever types of challenges they suffered (instead of the ones you did) then you would have a different world view. You would. That is a fact.
I am surrounded by democrats and they all think republican voters are low class idiots. If I were a republican then why would I want to vote for a party of people who obviously think I’m a low class idiot?
I feel bad for them, sure.
They still need to take responsibility.
They need to first be in a position to experience the consequences of their behavior in order to even be introspective about themselves.
The prosecution of the January 6 rioters was a wake up call for many of them, and that’s what it takes: FAFO.
Until they were all pardoned. A big part of the lesson for many became; We get away with it if we win.
Definitely this was Trumps takeaway. He broke the law his first term many times with little or no consequence so of course he is doubling down.
I think that’s an excuse, if anything the left has been overly tame and tolerant of maga/Republicans/conservatives under the guise of free speech. The idea of them being low class idiots came from their flavor of insanity of voting against their own interests with every single round of trickle down economics.
If anything they’re being too nice with their description.
So why are they idiots do you think? Like are you just naturally and inherently superior to all of them?
Or maybe they were raised differently than you were and taught different things than you were. Exposed to different ideas. Maybe they lack knowledge because they went to a shitty school rather than because they are inferior.
Or that is just an excuse because I don’t want to admit that they are idiots. Idiots who strangely enough don’t want to vote for people who are convinced they are idiots.
They lack empathy and critical thinking skills above all else. Without empathy they cannot understand how different people have different struggles or life experiences. Without critical thinking skills they think all solutions are a simple black or white option with no grey.
With those factors combined, yes I would call them idiots at a minimum if not downright evil.
So why would someone lack empathy?
Like if there is a 4 year old whose parents hit them - then they go to school and hit other kids. Is the 4 year old evil? Or were they taught that behavior?
I’m not saying that adults are 4 years old and aren’t responsible for their actions, I’m just saying that some people have VERY different opportunities than you and I have had.
People are complicated, but my (liberal) values are exactly what one would expect me to have if you look at my upbringing and education. If I had a different education and upbringing I almost certainly would have different values.
Not fun to admit, but true.
I prefer to call actions bad rather than people. People are pretty complicated, and it’s not a level playing field.
I’m superior to someone that votes for Donald Trump, yes.
So you are all in with “us vs them” politics.
Yay my team and fuck the other guys they suck.
They’re idiots because they’ve systemically allowed themselves to be taken advantage of while refusing to ever hold their leadership, representatives, or votes accountable.
They don’t vote for Dems or non Republicans in general not because they’re idiots but because they’re Evil and want other people to suffer. And more and more think that non-christians and immigrants should be erased. Which Republican law makers will easily agree to parrot or push because they don’t give a shit. It’s definitely not a ridiculous idea of democratic pseudo elitism especially since the only reason to vote Dem is so those lazy bastards can prevent things from getting worse. We aren’t going around acting like we’re geniuses compared to Republicans. At most a remark like that would be retaliation.
We don’t even need their votes we need the people that aren’t voting to vote since they’re easier to have an actual conversation with. If they want to be idiots let them, I don’t give a shit about them.
You sound really angry.
Action taken based on anger and hatred is different than action motivated by compassion and morality.
Yeah, no stop with that. I’m not going to take this moderate kumbaya bullshit that hasn’t worked and will never work. We’re backsliding so far that things will be worse than the 50s in 2 months. There’s no compassion left for any of these Nazis, and there never will be again. I’ll gladly step over and on their corpses if that’s what it takes. If their own policies leaves them dying and starving I don’t give a flying fuck.
There’s no morality in sitting here and taking abuse from people that have not only sold out the country but have consistently demonized, witch hunted, and are apathetic to any misfortune directly or indirectly caused. 10 years ago your argument had merit. 5 Years ago you weren’t right but had the moral high ground despite it all. 2 years ago I’d have side eyed you, said that Christians/Conservatives/Religion is the worst thing that humanity has ever created and will bring the downfall of us a species, and then I’d have gotten push back but I wouldn’t have been silenced. Today you’ve got nothing to stand on imo.
There is only anger left, as far as hatred that’s come about because I’m forced to constantly consider people that have actively hated me for existing. Having to know when the genocide starts will do that. The audacity to say that I need to stop being angry, that I need to basically let it go. When I could straight up die in the next 2 years because sky fairy cultists have decided to initiate the purge is honestly ridiculous.
I’m sorry. I also feel anger and fear. I am desperately looking for ways to take action that are at least potentially effective, even if there is risk and personal cost to myself. I do not feel like a “moderate”.
I also do not want to lose sight of my own value system. Trump is full of vengeful hate. I would rather be a good person who got killed trying to make things better than be still alive but consumed with vengeful hate / hurting other people.
I am not religious - but I am a pacifist at heart. The people I admire most are folks who brought about massive change through non violent means - not people who won wars.
And honestly even if the political stuff all suddenly became ok (it won’t) the billions of people who will die from climate change is inevitable- so that gives me some perspective. Like we are ALL going to die. What is the best I can do with the time I have?
I do not have answers. Maybe - as you suggest - everything I do will be ineffective. I share your fear and dread, but if I can’t continue to value love over hate then I have already lost.
If anything they’re being too nice with their description.
Honestly? Trump is the only reason I even vote Democrat at all. Democrats spent too many years telling me I’m “toxic” and “privileged”, wagging their finger at me for stupid shit like using the word “lame”(apparently it’s “ableist” to say that nowadays) and treating me as if I’m a problem to be dealt with rather than a human being, for me to trust Democrats.
You can go ahead give “not being nice” a try if you want, but that’s only going to make people like me feel more unwelcome among Democrats than we already do - And you can insult me or yell at me for saying that if you want, and I’ll just grit my teeth and bear it and vote Democrat anyways in 2026 because you’re the “lesser of two evils”… But just know that there are DEFINITELY other voters out there who will be driven right away by that type of approach.
Oh my Goddess, “toxic” and “privileged” tf? That’s what has you rubbed the wrong way? PC culture? lmao that isn’t even a party thing I don’t recall anyone running on that promising to police words. That is culture war propaganda. Moderates sure as hell don’t care. What that is the result of progressives getting a voice and enough power to actually remove people that are assholes when 15+ years ago they’d have grimace until someone said a slur and then it was 50/50 if it wasn’t the n-word. That gateway Nazi apologist speech that comes from either being out of touch, just a bit too racist, terminally online, privileged (and you can be privileged in some ways and absolutely fucked in others), an asshole that’s smart enough to toe the line or some flavor of idiot.
Getting so bent out of shape because the equivalent of a grammar Nazi spoke to you online about something that you probably didn’t consider is the biggest crybaby bullshit I’ve ever heard. That’s not “the party” and if it was Whenever Dems were in power you’d see much stronger political action to defend handicapped individuals. Dems are a mix of lukewarm assholes that don’t hate other people enough to want to ruin their lives for no reason. So acting like saying something offensive, when if you consider any context there’s a reason why insults are insulting, and then having someone frown at you is like being crucified is completely a problem. It cannot be solved except by touching grass.
You are acting like you’re being persecuted, when it’s literally words from someone and their words aren’t being parroted by legislators, they aren’t creating a movement to imprison and then pass you around like a sex object. They’re not trying to murder you in the streets or straight up ban your healthcare. You’re acting like you have some moral high ground when you want to say slurs 💀. And go ahead bruh say lame say whatever you want. Do you know how many times I get corrected for saying shit ? That you’ve connected that to Dems because progressives literally can’t make their own party because they hate rich people is hilarious.
You keep saying “people like me” while tiptoeing around what the hell you’re talking about so I’m just going to assume you’re talking about incels. PC culture isn’t why incels don’t vote Dem. It’s because the right hates women as much as they do and isn’t afraid to show it. It’s because they’re racist and they know who exactly if going to be racist right along with them. It’s because they’re -phobic think of anything that’s not Evangelical Christian and Republicans despise it right next to them.
If you’re an incel but you understand that Trump and every Republican enabling him is going to destroy the US. Congrats. But blaming random people not wanting to be insulted by low grade Nazis for Dem polling results is completely out of touch with reality.
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You not only didn’t read what I wrote, you also didn’t understand what I wrote.
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PC Language has nothing to do with Democrats, that’s why my rights keep vanishing under them which is something I said. It has to do with Progressives particularly liberals that have pretending to be Dems so they can get elected.
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Dems don’t actually care they just don’t do anything that’s why I vote for them because if there’s enough of them absolutely nothing happens instead of things getting worse. Dems are a completely moderate bystander party. They literally do nothing if they’re not in control of all three branches and then drag their feet. But they’re not going to make things worse.
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Reproductive rights were stolen by a stacked Conservative Judiciary that has been taking bribes. And since the previous administration was following the law they could not interfere, hell they basically didn’t interfere at state level at all which is why texas has such a massive increase in deaths from birth complications and it’s approaching 3rd world country. I don’t give a shit about Texas.
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Dems are not like maga we’re not a monolith we’re literally everyone else. It’s because of that Dem leadership doesn’t do anything, they don’t have to. They will just whine and since we have 0 cult of personality figures they don’t lose out in votes. The Dem position has been “we’re not Republicans yet” for a long time now. That was good enough because the system was corrupt and no one was rich enough to fix it.
If what you’re saying isn’t a slur then no one would care if you said it. 😒 This is a fake issue that only happens online. You don’t want to be called toxic then stop acting like I’ve come after you personally and stop crying about shit that isn’t happening. I don’t give a shit about your slurs, I don’t care that you’re racist, really don’t give a shit that you’re so misogynist that you made an entire post talking down to me and then deleted it which was some bitch ass shit. Like stand on business. You keep talking about how I’m doing things wrong but that’s a lot of assumptions you’re making yourself.
I don’t care about maga voters and flipping because I hate them, I hate their religion, I hate their goofy dusty murderer asses, I hate everything about them, and don’t want to flip these people. I don’t want them to exist anymore. You’ve completely got the wrong number if you’ve ever thought I’ve given a shit about slurs or flipping these goons. I’ve written these people off because I know they can’t change because they’re genuinely evil. That’s what you call people that have gone out of their way to harm others religiously while unprovoked. You can lie and blame it on “PC culture” but that came after decades of being insulted and preyed apon. And you have the audacity to act like I should be nice to these Nazis as if I need them. As if they wouldn’t stab me in the back as soon as Elon or Trump throws them $100 and says stfu. Bruh you’re out your mind. The only votes I need are the non-voters and to stop the election tampering.
You don’t even know what “Privileged” means if you honestly consider it an insult. Everytime you breathe air is a privilege, we all fucking have them it’s a nothing burger. I’ve never seen anyone take that shit seriously and then act like Dem leadership is actively pushing PC culture. When they haven’t pushed anything since Obama.
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Nah, I was raised Republican and just didn’t buy into the obvious hate slop. This kind of political and ideological determinism is just as harmful. Stop making excuses for these people.
Do you feel like calling a whole group “these people” is a helpful approach?
I’d also mention that the Dems are profoundly unpopular right now. I can’t tell you many Trump voters I’ve talked to the past few weeks that have a short circuit when I tell them that I hate the Dems too, probably more than they do. Many Trump voters (and non-voters for that matter) are as Anti-Dem as they are Pro-Trump, if not moreso.
I’m not sure how to convince these people to vote for a Democrat in the short term. Even if in the long term the goal is a new party or a radical restructuring of the current one.
The party needs to go to win.
You are absolutely right.
I don’t know how we reach the non voters. This has been a problem since I’ve been alive. If everyone voted, the Republican party would cease to exist in two cycles. Their bullshit is deeply unpopular.
I hate to sound defeatist, it’s just that I’ve been listening to “if only more people voted…,” if only the old generation died… “,” if only young people got involved… " for over 4 decades and nothing has changed.
I also love OPs post, it’s also 100% true, but again, those that need to hear it won’t.
It’s an argument for compulsory voting. Or at least giving everyone a day off on polling day, or having it at a weekend. So that won’t happen.
Good comment.
Trick old as time. Sadly, it works pretty well with the uneducated mob. And uneducating people have been the government job for a while.
Neat. They won’t read this. This will be shared exclusively by people on the left and consumed the same way. There’s no getting through to them, and certainly no more room left for capitulation. Violence is the only way out of fascism this far gone.
It’s a class war. They’re toast if we ever unify on that point.
The rich are still living in their castles while the poor toil away to create unimaginable wealth for those powerful few. It doesn’t have to be like this and history shows us that
Hot take: this applies to the left side of the spectrum as well.
Liberals are angry at conservatives because of all of the above and lash out at them - online, on family dinners, … - and become an equal part of the culture war, instead of fighting the evil that’s causing it all.
No… The left “lashing out” about things like trans issues is about literally allowing people to exist as they are. The left “lashing out” on the right about the economy is because Republican presidents have historically been much worse than Democrat presidents in this regard (this is relatively common knowledge, but I could find a source if needed). Etc.
In fact, the first one doesn’t even fit your model as Democrats do not single out “others” to target.
I’m so tired of this false equivalency. The outrage may look similar at a surface level, but only on one side is it completely (objectively) justified.
Agreed.
I’m all for emphasising class war.
But this “culture war” also includes the human rights of trans people, disabled people, migrants, marginalised folk in general.
I think it’s dangerous to say it’s unimportant. Yes the purpose might be to distract us, but if we let the right win, we are letting them literally commit social murder against groups of people. This isn’t about whether a gay flag is allowed to go on the street. It’s about if a disabled person is allowed to request accommodations and therefore have a job instead of starving to death. It’s about if a trans person has the right to exist openly without being locked into and abused in a psych ward.
social murder
For now…
That’s by design. One of the fundamental mechanisms of right wing rhetoric is DARVO. They turn it around to accuse you of being the aggressor.
The fact that the root comment has 20 upvotes for two days without rebuttal until your reply is an example of why lemmy is no better then reddit. Wtf is everyone smoking that you all don’t have grasp of the basic rhetoric by now.
Some times I think it’s all theater. Any and all of this opposition. How much of it is controlled opposition… Maybe it’s just two goals on a field largely controlled by the same team. Whatever. I’m sure someone will be along shortly to aggressively tell me I’m a clinically insane leftist.
Absolutely.
I think a lot of the people who are anti-trump often use these issues as talking points when convenient without actually caring about the issues or trying to do anything regarding them.
But when one side is commiting violence against racial & GSR minorities, it’s hardly being an “equal part” of a culture war to oppose that violence.
It is deeply frustrating that the vast majority of Americans agree on most things (at least we did a few years ago), and yet we fight each other over arbitrary nonsense anyway.
protestant ass country
Does this mean all the liberals wishing death on anyone who voted Trump are doing the elites work?
We can be angry, but we need to keep our eye on the prize. To get out of this we’re going to need to swallow our pride and work with people we don’t always agree with.
I don’t think MAGA are the most reliable allies. But there are times where our interests will align and we can work together.
However, we benefit more from allying with swing voters or those who didn’t vote.
If keeping everyone divided is the elites work then yes.
I dont think its that simple myself, but if you believe it is then yes does seem to be the answer
I don’t know anymore. We should welcome like minded people, but at what point is too much tolerance that lets more rights be taken away?
We should welcome like minded people, but at what point is too much tolerance that lets more rights be taken away?
Libertarian nutjob who voted against Trump three times here. We probably disagree on some things but we definitely agree that people’s rights being taken by a tyrannical government is wrong.
The party that beats MAGA has to be a big tent. Voting is a numbers game and every vote counts, you don’t win elections by shutting groups of people out.
I try to remember that most of them are legitimately brainwashed into an actual cult, and stuck in one hell of a bubble. There’s certainly a lot of underlying prejudice at play–this is America we are talking about, after all–but they are also being misled. Lest we forget the real perpetrators of Jan 6th, who have yet to be punished; I have a hard time imagining I’d have taken a different course of action from those rioters if I truly thought an election had been stolen and no one in power was doing anything.
That said…I think many of these people are beyond help at this point. At least as far as interactions with non-family/friends goes. Use your best judgement when interacting with them, eh.
I’m convinced that some of them actually do know what is going on behind the scenes, and is supporting it regardless of status. Some people really do want to see the world burn.
My question to the potential pro-Trump republican lurker in here: is this really what you want? Are you sure you know what you are doing? You get the right wing’s wet dream, but at what cost?
