I just want to say a few words because I got banned from my local NextDoor app and Reddit 2x because I get so sick of seeing so many pro-ICE class traitors cheering on the abuse thats occuring in our neighborhoods and communities in the Unites States! These same people claim to be patriots as you realize they are the same people that would have snitched on Ann Frank ffs!
The rich people that own these platforms are creating their own fake realities to feel better about themselves using banning features and bot accounts but eventually it will catch up with them. It used to be normal and standard to not be okay with dictatorships and Nazi behavior. Millennials learned about WW2 in schools ffs! We KNOW Hitler is bad!
Its so insanely UN-AMERICAN to cheer on ICE as they LARP around as fake police officers, that are somehow allowed to murder and abduct innocent civilians?! Legally VIA the Federal Government? I stand by every single thing I said in my post and these people have had EVERY SINGLE opportunity to wake up. They choose to either be ignorant or just a crappy human being. Part of living in a society means community and contributing to your neighborhood somehow but instead they choose to side with the budget clown mafia that is our government and the disgusting oligarchs that are sucking all of the US citizens dry, INCLUDING THOSE CHEERING THEM ON! Its absurd and I am so sick of being censored, constantly. I am thankful for the Fediverse… But I wish more people knew about it! Its still very niche… When this time in history is over can we as a society prioritize educating the public on privacy, mesh networks and other peer to peer networking options? This can never happen again.
P.S. I am not angry that I was banned specifically. Its because these same people complained about FrEe SpeEcH and its so evident they only ever used it to be a disgusting racist, sexist ect… hateful human being. Not because they believe in freedom.
Hell no I won’t! If you support ICE, then fuck you and fuck everything you care about, and please unironically saw your own head off immediately.
Seems like you fell for the obvious bait & made their point when I figured they were playing devil’s advocate. “Free speech” only when it doesn’t offend you isn’t free speech. This is just plain hypocrisy.
The fuck are you on about? “Free speech” is a protection against government overreach- period. Doesn’t have a damn thing to do with regular citizens “canceling” each other
Please look at the next reply in the chain. I made it very clear that the speech I’m railing against is defense of fascism. We can politely disagree on almost everything, but absolutely not fascism.
Nope. I wanted to tackle that “devil’s advocate” crap head on.
The phrase devil’s advocate comes from a historic official Catholic Church position where someone argues against the canonization of a saint in order to uncover any flaws in arguments for canonization. In modern parlance, it is used to describe people who argue for a position they don’t believe in to strengthen the argument.
As of writing this comment, the person I replied to made no implication that they were trying to be a “devil’s advocate”, which means that they just advocated for “the devil” for free.
We are not just having a friendly, weightless debate amongst equals where the two positions are represented by equal powers, i.e. in the context where devil’s advocates are necessary. ICE is waging a war against the working poor of the United States with the full backing and military might of the
government, and this person was (possibly inadvertently, but I really don’t care anymore) doing propaganda on their behalf. In situations like these, in asymmetric warfare, “devil’s advocates” go by a different name: traitors! And ICE is worse than the devil, so we certainly do not need ICE advocates!
Free speech is free speech. The only justifiable limitation is harm, not mere offense. While fascism is harmful, their speech merely offends. Only they, their violence, threats, & appeal to force can be justifiably suppressed, not their merely offensive opinions.
If anything, your tact is counterproductive, because it robs everyone the open discourse necessary to observe the reasons against fascism & their effective articulation to discredit fascist rhetoric. People need practice to hone their abilities to deliberate & articulate themselves effectively. Relying on dogma, taboo, & censorship leads to brittle thinkers & incompetent defenders of righteous causes.
Moreover, their remark of “disagreeing about ICE” (as outlandish as it seems to me) doesn’t automatically make them a fascist. You’re making somewhat of a leap here. Do you know the US is full of douches?
Impoliteness is ineffective & unskilled at discrediting bad positions. Having reason on your side & articulating it effectively makes a more resounding (& satisfying) defeat.
Then you boldly played yourself & deluded yourself into “victory”.
Seems you’re raising an etymological fallacy. Unless you’re psychic, you don’t know what the commenter truly believes & no one needs to declare/imply/admit they’re playing devil’s advocate to do so.[1]
Exposing someone’s hypocrisy over the principle of free speech by eliciting a response just as the commenter had fits the definition exactly.
That’s up to you. We’re on Lemmy: nothing you do here does anything to oppose fascism. The fight against fascism is out there where the fascists are. I’m not even sure the commenter is advocating fascism: I think they were just luring you into a trap to expose your lack of principle regarding free speech. All we’re doing here is exchanging insignificant words.
On the contrary, exclusion instead of correction is a mistake that got us here. Before we got complacent, we dealt with idiots by legitimately discrediting their rhetoric in open discourse & advocating better ideas. Before deplatforming began, the problem was more manageable. Relying on censorship to knock them off platforms fanned the flames: their persecution complex feels justified with “liberal social media” against them, and by forming separate platforms where their rhetoric goes unchallenged, they can radicalize themselves & organize to defeat the liberal system “persecuting” them. Civic disengagement, apathy in our political system didn’t help either.
The same complacency that got us here won’t get us out. Censorship is incompetent advocacy & we’re paying the price.
Especially on here: prefatory explanations for any move Lemmy could maliciously interpret in the worst way possible (which is all of them) gets exhausting & inspires defiance. ↩︎
Strongly disagree. Their speech moves other people to commit acts of violence, appeals to force, etc.
The reasons against tolerating fascism are extremely simple and don’t need much debate: it is as simple as that fascists aim to dominate and eliminate basically anyone except for themselves.
Like we can debate the parameters of fascism, the history of fascism, hell even the justifications used for fascism throughout history, but we first have to agree that fascism is bad. And unfortunately, I live in a country where people don’t even agree on this anymore.
Yes it is lol, I’ve been here my whole godforsaken life and I will probably die in this shithole country 🙃
Yes, and when I’m doing an ordinary debate, I try to be polite and open-minded. But there are a very small minority of topics that I’m just not willing to debate, like whether or not you can have my wallet (you can’t, not debating it), whether or not I deserve to be shot (I don’t, not debating it), or whether or not we should tolerate fascism (we shouldn’t, not debating it), for the simple reason that “losing” that “debate” results in death and destruction and misery.
…yeah I know with pretty good probability what that commenter truly believes, especially based on his follow-up responses. I already knew the moment I commented. I’ve met a thousand dumb fucks like him with identical opinions, and I’m sure I’m gonna meet a thousand more 🙃.
Let me make explicit what I have only been implying: I clocked that dude as a piece of shit immediately and responded in kind. Now I know I’m not perfect at reading people, but I gotta work with what I got, and at least in this case, I nailed it. And I clocked you as a decent person, and I’m responding in kind.
Respectfully, hard disagree. Fascists used real concerns about censorship as cudgels, as they use every rhetorical tool, to barge into spaces where otherwise, their ideas would be absolutely obliterated.
I.e., no matter how good at debating you get, you cannot win a debate with a fascist. By putting fascist ideas on the same pedestal as your own ideas, you have already lost, because the fascist will simply use that platform as a cudgel to bully you and advocate for your oppression.
I need to stress that I really do want speech to be as free as possible, but that allowing fascists the same free speech rights as everyone else will result in them taking over the space, e.g. 4chan.
Its not propaganda its just support for the policy supported by a majority of the american people. And your right ice is backed by the entire unites states military they hold an absolute monopoly on violence. Be greatful they have not decided to use it and go full Tiananmen square in ur ass. Cos they sure as shit could and with the way ur acting why wouldnt people laugh just like u did when Charlie kirk died. If u celebrate the death of others for their political options why should others have empathy for you? Pick a side empathy for your enemies and u shall receive empathy if you die or laugh at ur enemies deaths and don’t be surprised when people celebrate yours.
Bro conservatives have been celebrating the deaths of leftists, liberals, and even moderate conservatives for fucking decades, fuck off with this empathy bullshit, we’re WAY past the point of them having empathy for people.
And also what the fuck you mean “empathy for other people”? Bro I know you’re just using “empathy” as a cudgel to bully me into accepting my oppression, like we both know you don’t care:
Glad ur smart enough to figure out that I’m just using the word “empathy” to manipulate you. Maybe you will think about that the next time u use that word for the exact same purpose. Ur so close to realising that I’m just using your own arguments against you yet so far from realising that every argument u present you are arguing against yourself.
Yeah you’re treating anti-fascism and fascism as equivalent when it’s more like eating a sandwich vs eating diarrhea. I clocked you immediately buddy, and I like how you think you’re clever for that take. It just felt good to scream at you 😆😆😆
Offt that’s some copium. Your right u defiantly didn’t just waist precious minutes of your life pointing out the excruciating details or your hypocracy for the purposed of my entertainment.
Well I’m glad we both got something from this
🖕😆🖕
Mate I think u might have bit too much critical thinking skills for lemmy. You might get banned for not siding with the lemmy hive mind if u keep acting like this.
So free speech for you but not for me? Sound awfully fascist of you. Do you unironically think that free speech should only apply to some people and anyone who doesn’t agree with you should be silenced? Is this not the very thing you are accusing ice of doing? Do u not see the hypocracy or do u simply not care?
Yes if you speak in support of fascism, including but not limited to ICE.
It’s not, but if people started adopting your view of what constitutes fascism, then the term would be useless.
No, just silence the fascists. We can disagree about almost everything else. “Polite” fascists, e.g. Charlie Kirk, deserve the same bullets as rude ones 🧱🤯🔫👿🏴
It’s literally not what I’m accusing ICE doing. I am accusing ICE of doing what they were designed to do, i.e. enforce immigration laws and terrorize the working class on behalf of the capitalist class. Even if, especially if ICE is doing their job “correctly” in perfect accordance with their own training and procedures and the laws passed by the AmeriKKKan government, they are (and have been for as long as it has existed under every administration, both right and “”“left”“”) a fascist secret police.
I don’t care about accusations of hypocrisy from fascists and their supporters since I know what makes you cheer.
Infinite genocide against fascists forever.
Glad we could establish that you don’t support free speech. Given that you don’t support free speech you have no right to complain when people silence you.
You didn’t celebrate the death of Charlie kirk cos he was a fascist you called him a fascist so u could kill him.
It seems u don’t have an issue with fascism but an issue with the democratic laws of the nation. Interesting that jan6 was so bad cos it was against democracy but the second democracy is against you then its justified to break the law.
Glad we could establish that u don’t care about being a hypocritic rally makes it clear that your not coming from a place of rationality or good faith.
And real talk. The government holds the monopoly on violence. They could just go Tiananmen square on ur ass and kill you all. The fact that u can sit around screaming death threats at people on the internet and celebrating the death of people you don’t like is a testament to the fact that the government is not fascist as no fascist regime would ever tolerate what u are currently doing. You behaving like this is only going to radicalise people further to the right and the more u push your violent intolerant rhetoric the closer you push everyone else towards exercising that very same violence upon you.
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If you’re not a fascist, then I am here in good faith, and we should be able to agree that fascism is bad and needs to be stopped. For fascists… fascists get nothing.
And hell the fuck no I’m not coming from this from a detached “”“rational”“” perspective! I’m terrified! Everyone I know is terrified! So excuse me for not being perfectly fucking reasonable while you run defense for the Gestapo fucks trying to kill my loved ones. I hope that in your darkest hour, someone else shows you the same understanding. And AmeriKKKans are so fucking brain-broken that all we can muster, in the most heavily armed nation on earth, is a bunch of chanting and angry letters.
Right now, you’re fence-sitting. Pick a side.
I am literally an anarcho-communist. (Before you make a snide comment: anarcho-communism predates the Russian revolution. It is not even remotely an oxymoron, not even remotely syncretic, not even a “synthesis” of some previously distinct notions of “anarchism” and “communism”, but I don’t have the patience today to explain any further.) I 1000% do not support liberal “”“democratic”“” nations or any other nation-states. Of course I fucking oppose fascism, but liberal democracy is what allowed fascism to rise. I.e. I wipe my ass with the laws of this nation 💩
January 6th was bad because Nazis did it, and that’s literally it. AmeriKKKans have had a moral duty to storm the fucking capital and rid this land of its pedophile colonialist elites since the day white people landed on this continent. And yes it is almost always permissible, sometimes even obligatory, to break the law. The law is not only not a substitute for morality, but it is usually in direct opposition to the right things.
You know if it only takes your fee-fees getting hurt by one meanie bobeanie internet leftist living in constant fear of the Gestapo taking him and all his fucking loved ones to an El Salvadorian torture prison while obviously having a meltdown to go to the right wing, I somehow think you weren’t very likely to listen to leftists anyways.
Like there’s a saying “scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds” but does getting yelled at count as a scratch for you?
Every mean thing I said was conditioned on whether or not you’re a fascist, so if you’re not a fascist, then none of that shit applies and you shouldn’t need to feel offended by it. Like please stop fucking fence sitting; pick a fucking side.
Fence sitting? I’m not fence sitting I absolutely think that ice is doing their democratically elected and mandated duty. I believe in free speech of everyone Karl popper be damned.
I think your definition of fascism and my definition are vastly different. Yours seems to include people such as Charlie kirk who never killed anyone or advocated for violence. Mine includes states who actively practice the hyper nationalistic and totalitarian practice’s of fascism as prescribe by Mussolini. Eg the USSR, ccp, Nazis, Iran etc etc. I would not count the maga movement as fascist, nationalistic sure but they support freedom of speech and are actively carrying out the will of the people as decided by democracy ie ice deportations.
If u don’t support liberal democratic nations then why don’t u fuck off to somewhere that isn’t a liberal democratic nation? You are free to leave (due to the fact that u live in a liberal democratic nation, don’t let the irony if that be lost).
So jan6 was only bad because u think the people who did it where Nazis? The Nazis killed 22million people the jan 6 rioters killed 0. I can see 22million reasons why that statement is completly fucking illogical.
My feelings aren’t hurt at all I’m here for the entertainment value of watching a meltdown in real time as I simply present what most people would call objective reality. And given the way the world is going and that I’m a well educated, rich, strait, white, male when it comes to fascism, Nazism, or eugenics I stand to lose nothing and most likely stand to win a lot. I don’t like fascism I like my liberty and freedom but if I’m going to lose liberty and freedom I’d rather it be taken by those who don’t hate me for who I am.
I think you are failing to realise that the world is not simply split in 2. Their does not exist 2 groups 1 that agrees with u and one that is fascist. I’m sure I agree with you on many things and disagree with u on many other. I am not simply some asshole playing politics like a football game picking sides. I’m picking whatever side on every issue that is the most beneficial to me and the most beneficial in creating the world I want to live in. And I want to live in a world where the government does the job it was democratically elected to do and in this case that is deport illegal immigrants. That is what the people decided. Their are only 2 functional forms of government democracy, and fascism, and I prefer democracy.
Ah, I see, fascist spotted. Please saw your head off 🪚
As I thought fascism doesn’t mean fascism it means “someone I disagree with who I want to wish violence upon”.
And what exactly about that I said makes me fascist? Please point out exactly what part makes me fascist? I explicitly stated I didn’t want the fascist ideologies hence why I support democracy and the carrying out of its duties as elected by the people. I pointed at that I would stand to gain a lot by supporting it yet I don’t. Do want to be the reason I decide that maybe I should?
Why can u support an ideology that is counter to democratic law that benefits u the most and I can’t? You can either accept the democratic rule of law and live under the social contract or everyone gets to support ideologies counter to democratic law such as fascism, Nazism, or eugenics. U can have ur cake or u can eat it not both.
I already told you: