You can say this but when a republican policy is “drill for more oil” and a democratic policy is “focus on clean energy,” one is easier, cheapens prices, and has readily apparent effects. Many democrat policies are long term goals that people won’t notice, and might even hurt them in the short term, but they need to be done. Medicare will increase taxes, supporting Ukraine and not taking Russian oil increases prices, and most people agree these policies are good things. Yet what is the biggest complaint under Biden? Skyrocketing inflation, because the average voter doesn’t care about policy they just care how it affects their lives.
You’re asking for an impossible solution if you want the party of “this is a hard decision but will benefit us all in the future” to have the same draw as “here’s cheaper prices NOW, we’ll ignore the future.” Not to mention as you already said republicans will block any and all attempts at real change. It’s completely unfair that even if 90% of a democrat candidate’s platform is beneficial, that’s not good enough since they don’t have the short-term effects to wow people with. If democratic policies reduced prices and republican policies increased them (say, swap the stances on oil and climate), we could have a literal potato as the candidate and people would run to vote for it.
I’ve written a lot of comments this morning, and I don’t remember which one’s I’ve said what in, so I apologize if I’m repeating something.
I understand what you’re saying, it’s not fair that the Democrats have an unrealistic standard compared to the Republicans. But the Democrats have to figure that out and get over it, and they’re just not.
I’m seeing a lot of polls now showing the biggest factor for Americans voting was the economy. The economy has, verifiably, improved under Biden, and I will not argue against that.
But polls also consistently show that, despite the improved economy, Americans don’t feel it. And that’s the problem: the Dems were presented this information (Americans don’t feel better under this economy), and just kept doubling down, spouting metrics that mean nothing to the average American.
I think in response to the economy polling, Harris trotted out the $15/hr minimum wage increase. In our political hellscape, that’s a progressive policy. But it’s 10 years too late… Minimum wage should be around $26/hr if it was (and should be) tied to inflation, the magic buzzword everyone has on their mind. But they’re not campaigning on $26/hr, they’re barely campaigning on $15/hr.
Someone in another thread pointed out bodily autonomy and how much worse it would get under Trump. Fair enough, but what has Biden shown the American people he’s done about bodily autonomy in the last 4 years? Why wasn’t it enshrined into law at any point during the decades since the initial Roe ruling? Why should voters believe Democrats are actually going to do it this time and not continue using abortion as a campaign tool?
You and I both know the answers to all of the questions above are not black and white, their answers range from the complexity of different administrations to the limited power within the executive branch to Democrats lacking a political majority outside of a few months every couple decades, etc. I get that, but even I’m tired of it being an excuse, and the average American doesn’t even consider the excuse. They just don’t care: they see their money worth less, their paycheck barely increasing to match inflation most years, and laws not being passed.
On the flip side, Trump got a lot done in his first four years, regardless of whatever legal obstacles got in his way. This flies in the face of our constitution and the very rule of law and is a direct threat to our democracy…
… But he got things done. No one can deny that, Trump got things done, and he did things his base wanted him to. As much as Trump hates his base, he at least panders to them, and if he doesn’t support them, he shows faux support, which is good enough. He represents the worst of humanity, is a serial rapist, convicted felon, racist, misogynist, sexist, xenophobic, transphobic, homophobic orange shit stain on the annals of history…
But he got things done, and in the eyes if the average American, Biden didn’t, and Harris promised 4 more years of the same. So voters stayed home, and it is 100% the Democrats fault.
You’ve said a lot here that I agree with, but ultimately the responsibility is on the voters to be competent, critical thinkers that at least attempt to be informed. And they (we) are not. But unfortunately this just appears to be an entropy point built into our current system. And it facilitates one party over the other. Republicans are an ideologically unified authoritarian block that denies critical and strategic thinking in its platform and is structured only to identify problems but not sustainable solutions. They’ve always been this. The current Democratic party, otoh, is a big tent party focused on long term solution plans to nuanced problems and has many stakeholders that are ideologically opposed such that actual compromise may be fundamentally impossible. I honestly don’t know if this CAN be overcome. It’s a tough spot to be in. What i do know is that the next 4 years, at a minimum, are going to be mad dash of regulatory capture and federal collapse the likes we haven’t seen since the 20s.
but ultimately the responsibility is on the voters to be competent, critical thinkers that at least attempt to be informed.
I disagree, it’s a politicians job during a campaign to convince people to vote for them. I agree that voters should be informed, but if someone chooses not to vote, I view that as a failure of the candidate, not the voter.
You have the right to vote, you don’t have the obligation (some countries do, and I wish we did, but we do not). And no candidate is entitled to a vote simply for existing.
Beyond that… Yeah, you and I are basically on the same page. I appreciate that you’ve been civil about this, and I want to reiterate: I do believe the Democrats are the lesser of two evils, by a long shot. I do believe they should have gotten more support, and I really wish they had turned out the vote.
But they didn’t, and I don’t think it’s fair to blame apathetic voters when the worst option was “fascism,” but the lesser evil was “status quo that you’re drowning under, with a touch of genocide.” Trump supporters? Yeah, they’re… Everything they want the world to believe they are, they have no excuse for gladly marching into fascism.
But I don’t blame apathetic voters for not wanting to participate in a system they don’t feel represented in, and aren’t inspired by either candidate to vote in.
Why though? Isnt part of living in a democracy an obligation to be well informed and making the correct choice, depending on whatever your ideological beliefs might be?
If inflation is hurting my family, isn’t the proper course of action for me to figure out what the causes and possible short and long term solutions are? Why is the onus on the politician to wow me with buzzwords in a 10 second tiktok, which ultimately will be half truth at best? If anything I need to follow up with more rigor and view their platforms and their past records.
I get it, its too much work. I get it, the Democrats did horrible messaging on multiple fronts. Kamala was definitely reserved and filtered in all her appearances and facing an uneven playing field.
But to absolve 80 million voters (a second time) by saying “theyre just angry you see, they dont know any better where to direct this anger to” is unfair.
But to absolve 80 million voters (a second time) by saying “theyre just angry you see, they dont know any better where to direct this anger to” is unfair.
Ah, see, the general vibe on Lemmy has been to criticize and shame people who didn’t vote, and that’s where I thought your debate was coming from. I cast no blame on anyone who either didn’t vote or voted third party.
If we’re talking the 80 million who voted for Trump a second time? Oh yeah, absolutely, fair game on that front. The only defense I have for them, which I think is important to understand for Democrats to maybe start winning, is that they want change.
And Trump, as shitty as he and his cohorts are, showed them they can change things dramatically during the course of a single presidency. It’s shitty change, and many of them don’t live in reality, so I’ve just been discounting them entirely. But it’s still observable change that usually aligns with what they want.
Biden/the Democrats have made change, but it’s not… Flashy enough? It’s not enough, the status quo isn’t enough for the voting base they need, and they need to adjust their platform accordingly.
So yeah, if you’re criticism is of those who voted for Trump, I agree completely, I’m as angry and disappointed as you are (though not surprised). I just don’t think it’s fair to blame non-voters and third party for the Democrats failing to convince them they’re worth voting for.
Im not the original poster that you replied to. Then again Im not thinking from a “democrats” perspective since theyre not my party, and Im not a US citizen.
You’ve probably seen this but this video is basically exactly why this is the case. I suppose the only path forward is for democrats to exploit anything they can and go even lower (like increasing the number of justices so you get a majority) and then both parties race to see who can exploit the constitution more. I think no democrat wants to do this because it would be insanity, but the Republicans have been doing it for years so there really aren’t many options left.
You can say this but when a republican policy is “drill for more oil” and a democratic policy is “focus on clean energy,” one is easier, cheapens prices, and has readily apparent effects. Many democrat policies are long term goals that people won’t notice, and might even hurt them in the short term, but they need to be done. Medicare will increase taxes, supporting Ukraine and not taking Russian oil increases prices, and most people agree these policies are good things. Yet what is the biggest complaint under Biden? Skyrocketing inflation, because the average voter doesn’t care about policy they just care how it affects their lives.
You’re asking for an impossible solution if you want the party of “this is a hard decision but will benefit us all in the future” to have the same draw as “here’s cheaper prices NOW, we’ll ignore the future.” Not to mention as you already said republicans will block any and all attempts at real change. It’s completely unfair that even if 90% of a democrat candidate’s platform is beneficial, that’s not good enough since they don’t have the short-term effects to wow people with. If democratic policies reduced prices and republican policies increased them (say, swap the stances on oil and climate), we could have a literal potato as the candidate and people would run to vote for it.
I’ve written a lot of comments this morning, and I don’t remember which one’s I’ve said what in, so I apologize if I’m repeating something.
I understand what you’re saying, it’s not fair that the Democrats have an unrealistic standard compared to the Republicans. But the Democrats have to figure that out and get over it, and they’re just not.
I’m seeing a lot of polls now showing the biggest factor for Americans voting was the economy. The economy has, verifiably, improved under Biden, and I will not argue against that.
But polls also consistently show that, despite the improved economy, Americans don’t feel it. And that’s the problem: the Dems were presented this information (Americans don’t feel better under this economy), and just kept doubling down, spouting metrics that mean nothing to the average American.
I think in response to the economy polling, Harris trotted out the $15/hr minimum wage increase. In our political hellscape, that’s a progressive policy. But it’s 10 years too late… Minimum wage should be around $26/hr if it was (and should be) tied to inflation, the magic buzzword everyone has on their mind. But they’re not campaigning on $26/hr, they’re barely campaigning on $15/hr.
Someone in another thread pointed out bodily autonomy and how much worse it would get under Trump. Fair enough, but what has Biden shown the American people he’s done about bodily autonomy in the last 4 years? Why wasn’t it enshrined into law at any point during the decades since the initial Roe ruling? Why should voters believe Democrats are actually going to do it this time and not continue using abortion as a campaign tool?
You and I both know the answers to all of the questions above are not black and white, their answers range from the complexity of different administrations to the limited power within the executive branch to Democrats lacking a political majority outside of a few months every couple decades, etc. I get that, but even I’m tired of it being an excuse, and the average American doesn’t even consider the excuse. They just don’t care: they see their money worth less, their paycheck barely increasing to match inflation most years, and laws not being passed.
On the flip side, Trump got a lot done in his first four years, regardless of whatever legal obstacles got in his way. This flies in the face of our constitution and the very rule of law and is a direct threat to our democracy…
… But he got things done. No one can deny that, Trump got things done, and he did things his base wanted him to. As much as Trump hates his base, he at least panders to them, and if he doesn’t support them, he shows faux support, which is good enough. He represents the worst of humanity, is a serial rapist, convicted felon, racist, misogynist, sexist, xenophobic, transphobic, homophobic orange shit stain on the annals of history…
But he got things done, and in the eyes if the average American, Biden didn’t, and Harris promised 4 more years of the same. So voters stayed home, and it is 100% the Democrats fault.
You’ve said a lot here that I agree with, but ultimately the responsibility is on the voters to be competent, critical thinkers that at least attempt to be informed. And they (we) are not. But unfortunately this just appears to be an entropy point built into our current system. And it facilitates one party over the other. Republicans are an ideologically unified authoritarian block that denies critical and strategic thinking in its platform and is structured only to identify problems but not sustainable solutions. They’ve always been this. The current Democratic party, otoh, is a big tent party focused on long term solution plans to nuanced problems and has many stakeholders that are ideologically opposed such that actual compromise may be fundamentally impossible. I honestly don’t know if this CAN be overcome. It’s a tough spot to be in. What i do know is that the next 4 years, at a minimum, are going to be mad dash of regulatory capture and federal collapse the likes we haven’t seen since the 20s.
I disagree, it’s a politicians job during a campaign to convince people to vote for them. I agree that voters should be informed, but if someone chooses not to vote, I view that as a failure of the candidate, not the voter.
You have the right to vote, you don’t have the obligation (some countries do, and I wish we did, but we do not). And no candidate is entitled to a vote simply for existing.
Beyond that… Yeah, you and I are basically on the same page. I appreciate that you’ve been civil about this, and I want to reiterate: I do believe the Democrats are the lesser of two evils, by a long shot. I do believe they should have gotten more support, and I really wish they had turned out the vote.
But they didn’t, and I don’t think it’s fair to blame apathetic voters when the worst option was “fascism,” but the lesser evil was “status quo that you’re drowning under, with a touch of genocide.” Trump supporters? Yeah, they’re… Everything they want the world to believe they are, they have no excuse for gladly marching into fascism.
But I don’t blame apathetic voters for not wanting to participate in a system they don’t feel represented in, and aren’t inspired by either candidate to vote in.
Why though? Isnt part of living in a democracy an obligation to be well informed and making the correct choice, depending on whatever your ideological beliefs might be?
If inflation is hurting my family, isn’t the proper course of action for me to figure out what the causes and possible short and long term solutions are? Why is the onus on the politician to wow me with buzzwords in a 10 second tiktok, which ultimately will be half truth at best? If anything I need to follow up with more rigor and view their platforms and their past records.
I get it, its too much work. I get it, the Democrats did horrible messaging on multiple fronts. Kamala was definitely reserved and filtered in all her appearances and facing an uneven playing field.
But to absolve 80 million voters (a second time) by saying “theyre just angry you see, they dont know any better where to direct this anger to” is unfair.
Ah, see, the general vibe on Lemmy has been to criticize and shame people who didn’t vote, and that’s where I thought your debate was coming from. I cast no blame on anyone who either didn’t vote or voted third party.
If we’re talking the 80 million who voted for Trump a second time? Oh yeah, absolutely, fair game on that front. The only defense I have for them, which I think is important to understand for Democrats to maybe start winning, is that they want change.
And Trump, as shitty as he and his cohorts are, showed them they can change things dramatically during the course of a single presidency. It’s shitty change, and many of them don’t live in reality, so I’ve just been discounting them entirely. But it’s still observable change that usually aligns with what they want.
Biden/the Democrats have made change, but it’s not… Flashy enough? It’s not enough, the status quo isn’t enough for the voting base they need, and they need to adjust their platform accordingly.
So yeah, if you’re criticism is of those who voted for Trump, I agree completely, I’m as angry and disappointed as you are (though not surprised). I just don’t think it’s fair to blame non-voters and third party for the Democrats failing to convince them they’re worth voting for.
Im not the original poster that you replied to. Then again Im not thinking from a “democrats” perspective since theyre not my party, and Im not a US citizen.
You’ve probably seen this but this video is basically exactly why this is the case. I suppose the only path forward is for democrats to exploit anything they can and go even lower (like increasing the number of justices so you get a majority) and then both parties race to see who can exploit the constitution more. I think no democrat wants to do this because it would be insanity, but the Republicans have been doing it for years so there really aren’t many options left.