Where does all this come from, the idea that if you decide to be “sovereign” then you don’t have to play by the rules? Is there a legal basis or are the just delusional?
There is a small kernel of interesting political philosophy at the core of this insanity. The idea that you are born into a system which you didn’t opt in to, and cannot opt out of. If you’re born in the US (or most places with a functional government), you’re born subject to several layers of government that you didn’t agree to, each of whom has all the typical government powers like a monopoly on the legitimate application of violence, and coercive taxation. You have no choice in any of that. You could try to leave, but you’ll just be subject to some other government. There’s no truly “free” land at this point in history (there is, just not the land anyone wants). This is, at the very least, interesting to consider.
The sovereign citizen mindset goes from that, straight to “I can just decide to opt out”. Usually the even more hypocritical “I can use the parts of society I want to use, but opt out of the others”. The fact is that their vision is ultimately untenable and there are good reasons why things are the way there are. There are too many humans in the areas of the earth where people actually want to live to let everything be a free-for-all. The cost and compromise of living in any valuable area this day in age is that you’re subject (without your express consent) to the government that controls the land where you were born.
The sovereign citizen just can’t handle any of this and rejects all or parts of it at their convenience. They think there are magic words they can say to a cop to make the law not apply, and all manner of other insanity.
They think there are magic words they can say to a cop to make the law not apply
I think a big part of it is that everyone has at some point in their life been screwed over by the fine print legalese. If the magic words can hurt you, surely they can help you, too.
They dont realize that it’s never been about the actual fine print, it’s been about who has power.
They’re delusional and the legal basis is all in their heads. When you declare that a traffic court is only subject to navy doctrine because the flag in the room has fringe, you’ve gone off the deep end.
So, it is essentially the person saying, “I’m a sovereign citizen, you can’t do anything to me” while holding their ears until someone lets them get away with it?
More like being a pain in the ass in court, from what I’ve seen. Stupid objections, dubious motions, someone else can likely sum it up better than I can. I hate these clowns.
Even if it were recognized, Sovereign Citizens would not be American citizens. Therefore they are illegal immigrants and would be deported (I dunno, to the ocean?) They have this whole thing about laws don’t apply to them and shit. Welp if that’s true what stops the US government from just abusing you? Or even just a gang of folks with guns shaking you down?
Sovereign cities are idiots and cheats who are trying to “game” the system by being petty criminals.
I read an article on it once and it seems to be based on not understanding the nuances of the US regulatory and legal systems. Like, a corporation can manipulate the tax system so they don’t owe any taxes, and corporations are people, so they decide people can declare themselves to be corporations and not pay taxes.
Someone in one state goes to bankruptcy court with a decent lawyer, a lot of preparation, and a very specific set of circumstances and gets their debt written off; they go to bankruptcy court in their own state, representing themselves, no work done, and just declare themselves free of debt. When it doesn’t work, instead of finding and confronting the actual reason (which may take work, or may not give them the answer they want), they look for other things to fix. Oh, someone it worked for used this exact phrase, let’s use that - it didn’t work, but we didn’t capitalize some things, so let’s Capitalize Random Words for extra Emphasis.
There are also fraudsters who prey on these people, telling them they’ll sell them a complete bankruptcy kit for only $200, absolutely guaranteed to get them out of debt. Even better, here, buy this other more expensive kit and you can assign your existing debt tow corporation of your choosing! Or buy this even more expensive kit and you can become a corporation and you’ll never owe money again! Or hey, file this set of papers and you’ll be given the money the government has been holding onto for you! (That one seems to be some mix of the unclaimed funds database and rich kids aging into their trust money.)
It’s interesting in a way, because they know enough to understand that the social contract is broken, and that rich people and corporations aren’t subject to the same repressive tax structure as the rest of us. But it’s also sad, because they’re in too deep to realize that helplessly flailing against a system that was never meant to represent them fairly. And it’s annoying af if you ever have to deal with them, because they’re usually highly stressed and don’t understand why their Magic Words aren’t Working like they Should, so they keep re-iterating variations of the danger thing over and over.
It’s interesting in a way, because they know enough to understand that the social contract is broken, and that rich people and corporations aren’t subject to the same repressive tax structure as the rest of us
This is what fascinates and frustrates me, too. They have so much faith that the system and governing structure was designed by -almost deified- freedom profits, that it blinds them to the failure they are so clearly experiencing.
If they could see through the national-exceptionalist brainwashing they’ve been exposed to, they’d almost be socialists.
It’s delusion but a historically motivated one. It’s a combination of leftover resentment from the Reconstruction, proxy war fuckery and serious oversteps by the government in forms such as Ruby Ridge and Waco. The sparknotes of it is just people who wanted to do what they wanted to without consequences using big words that mean nothing and 30 year old mistakes by the federal government to justify things as small as vehicle registration and speeding tickets or as large as mass firearms hoarding and human trafficking
I don’t know about “oversteps”… Screwups most definitely. Koresh was raping young women and there were valid search warrants; it became a thing because the DoJ royally fucked up the execution of those warrants and let it get out of control. Randy weaver had a bench warrant for failure to appear on a federal firearms charge. Again, as he was in the process of being served, someone (ATF agent Art Roderick) shot their dog when it ran at him, kicking off the escalation of violence that made the routine process serving into a tragedy.
Where does all this come from, the idea that if you decide to be “sovereign” then you don’t have to play by the rules? Is there a legal basis or are the just delusional?
There is a small kernel of interesting political philosophy at the core of this insanity. The idea that you are born into a system which you didn’t opt in to, and cannot opt out of. If you’re born in the US (or most places with a functional government), you’re born subject to several layers of government that you didn’t agree to, each of whom has all the typical government powers like a monopoly on the legitimate application of violence, and coercive taxation. You have no choice in any of that. You could try to leave, but you’ll just be subject to some other government. There’s no truly “free” land at this point in history (there is, just not the land anyone wants). This is, at the very least, interesting to consider.
The sovereign citizen mindset goes from that, straight to “I can just decide to opt out”. Usually the even more hypocritical “I can use the parts of society I want to use, but opt out of the others”. The fact is that their vision is ultimately untenable and there are good reasons why things are the way there are. There are too many humans in the areas of the earth where people actually want to live to let everything be a free-for-all. The cost and compromise of living in any valuable area this day in age is that you’re subject (without your express consent) to the government that controls the land where you were born.
The sovereign citizen just can’t handle any of this and rejects all or parts of it at their convenience. They think there are magic words they can say to a cop to make the law not apply, and all manner of other insanity.
I think a big part of it is that everyone has at some point in their life been screwed over by the fine print legalese. If the magic words can hurt you, surely they can help you, too.
They dont realize that it’s never been about the actual fine print, it’s been about who has power.
Thank you, that was very through explanation. I suppose your downvoter has a problem with your both-sidedness?
You can live in international waters completely. 100 miles out and you can go full cannibal as much as you want.
They’re delusional and the legal basis is all in their heads. When you declare that a traffic court is only subject to navy doctrine because the flag in the room has fringe, you’ve gone off the deep end.
The frustrating bit is that they sometimes get out of shit because judges don’t want the aggravation. This reinforces their deluded behavior.
So, it is essentially the person saying, “I’m a sovereign citizen, you can’t do anything to me” while holding their ears until someone lets them get away with it?
More like being a pain in the ass in court, from what I’ve seen. Stupid objections, dubious motions, someone else can likely sum it up better than I can. I hate these clowns.
Even if it were recognized, Sovereign Citizens would not be American citizens. Therefore they are illegal immigrants and would be deported (I dunno, to the ocean?) They have this whole thing about laws don’t apply to them and shit. Welp if that’s true what stops the US government from just abusing you? Or even just a gang of folks with guns shaking you down?
Sovereign cities are idiots and cheats who are trying to “game” the system by being petty criminals.
and at the same being way too stupid to actually cheat because they don’t actually understand the game to begin with.
I mean, that’s the definition of outlaw. You were no longer under the protection of the law.
I read an article on it once and it seems to be based on not understanding the nuances of the US regulatory and legal systems. Like, a corporation can manipulate the tax system so they don’t owe any taxes, and corporations are people, so they decide people can declare themselves to be corporations and not pay taxes.
Someone in one state goes to bankruptcy court with a decent lawyer, a lot of preparation, and a very specific set of circumstances and gets their debt written off; they go to bankruptcy court in their own state, representing themselves, no work done, and just declare themselves free of debt. When it doesn’t work, instead of finding and confronting the actual reason (which may take work, or may not give them the answer they want), they look for other things to fix. Oh, someone it worked for used this exact phrase, let’s use that - it didn’t work, but we didn’t capitalize some things, so let’s Capitalize Random Words for extra Emphasis.
There are also fraudsters who prey on these people, telling them they’ll sell them a complete bankruptcy kit for only $200, absolutely guaranteed to get them out of debt. Even better, here, buy this other more expensive kit and you can assign your existing debt tow corporation of your choosing! Or buy this even more expensive kit and you can become a corporation and you’ll never owe money again! Or hey, file this set of papers and you’ll be given the money the government has been holding onto for you! (That one seems to be some mix of the unclaimed funds database and rich kids aging into their trust money.)
It’s interesting in a way, because they know enough to understand that the social contract is broken, and that rich people and corporations aren’t subject to the same repressive tax structure as the rest of us. But it’s also sad, because they’re in too deep to realize that helplessly flailing against a system that was never meant to represent them fairly. And it’s annoying af if you ever have to deal with them, because they’re usually highly stressed and don’t understand why their Magic Words aren’t Working like they Should, so they keep re-iterating variations of the danger thing over and over.
This is what fascinates and frustrates me, too. They have so much faith that the system and governing structure was designed by -almost deified- freedom profits, that it blinds them to the failure they are so clearly experiencing.
If they could see through the national-exceptionalist brainwashing they’ve been exposed to, they’d almost be socialists.
It’s delusion but a historically motivated one. It’s a combination of leftover resentment from the Reconstruction, proxy war fuckery and serious oversteps by the government in forms such as Ruby Ridge and Waco. The sparknotes of it is just people who wanted to do what they wanted to without consequences using big words that mean nothing and 30 year old mistakes by the federal government to justify things as small as vehicle registration and speeding tickets or as large as mass firearms hoarding and human trafficking
I don’t know about “oversteps”… Screwups most definitely. Koresh was raping young women and there were valid search warrants; it became a thing because the DoJ royally fucked up the execution of those warrants and let it get out of control. Randy weaver had a bench warrant for failure to appear on a federal firearms charge. Again, as he was in the process of being served, someone (ATF agent Art Roderick) shot their dog when it ran at him, kicking off the escalation of violence that made the routine process serving into a tragedy.
It was not “overreach”. It was a fuck up.
You’re right. It’s been a minute since I’ve refreshed my memory on the Branch Davidians, forgot how bad it was
That’s some knowledge there. ATF fan, government fuck up fan, or history buff? 😁
Not op but this is standard “lore” in every gun circle/ gun club / gun show /fb group
Not sure what part or to whom is being ascribed to as gun fanatic/facebook-hellscape, but for my part, I don’t side with either of those camps.
History buff.
I’m pretty sure it was born from trying to justify tax evasion. In the US at least.